Su-30 MKI

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ace009

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You are relying on an you tube video of Fornof for facts!

Come off it Armand - we know you are biased against the MKI and too patriotic towards the rafale. That does not mean you can pick and choose from Fornofs comments - either you agree with everything he says - in which case IAF and MKI are "not good enough" AND the French are full of shit; OR you disagree with him in which case both IAF and ALA are OK.

Your choice ...
 

Armand2REP

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You are relying on an you tube video of Fornof for facts!
Fornof is a USAF Colonel, F-15 pilot and R&T director at Nellis giving a lecture at the Warfare Centre. Wth wouldn't I rely on him for the facts?

Come off it Armand - we know you are biased against the MKI and too patriotic towards the rafale. That does not mean you can pick and choose from Fornofs comments - either you agree with everything he says - in which case IAF and MKI are "not good enough" AND the French are full of shit; OR you disagree with him in which case both IAF and ALA are OK.
There is no picking of facts. MKI is highly subject to FOD = FACT. MKI has slow launch times = FACT. MKI has poor maintenance cycles thanks to Russian orders = FACT. MKI is slightly better than legacy aircraft on paper = FACT. USAF pilots are better trained than IAF = FACT. Aggressor F-15s dominated MKI = FACT. MKI was calling on contacts at least 22 miles out = FACT. MKI has a HUGE RCS = FACT. Rafale pilots were cautious in a high frat situation = FACT. IAF pilots are very professional = FACT. MKI was not in the datalink = FACT.

Your choice ...
I choose facts over opinions.
 

Payeng

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Fornof is a USAF Colonel, F-15 pilot and R&T director at Nellis giving a lecture at the Warfare Centre. Wth wouldn't I rely on him for the facts?



There is no picking of facts. MKI is highly subject to FOD = FACT. MKI has slow launch times = FACT. MKI has poor maintenance cycles thanks to Russian orders = FACT. MKI is slightly better than legacy aircraft on paper = FACT. USAF pilots are better trained than IAF = FACT. Aggressor F-15s dominated MKI = FACT. MKI was calling on contacts at least 22 miles out = FACT. MKI has a HUGE RCS = FACT. Rafale pilots were cautious in a high frat situation = FACT. IAF pilots are very professional = FACT. MKI was not in the datalink = FACT.



I choose facts over opinions.
First of all Indian Su 30 MKI donot employees Tumansky engines and a precaution to FOD doesnt prove that an engine is highly subject to FOD, after all a damage is a damage minor or a major one, no turbofan engines are immune to FOD, Yes MKI probably have a huge RCS but on the other hand also have a very powerfull PESA, radar effeciency is no less important factor then a lower RCS, radar emits radiation too, but point is who can achieve a situational advantage, the whole game was based on AWACS information feeding while IAF dont employess NATO standard communication link, AWACS employees even a bigger radar then MKI but also have a bigger RCS too, Soviets were known for their engineering marvels, but export arms are not equivalent to what they have, but MKI is believed to be one of the best 4th generation fighter ever, with further upgrades in the pipeline, the Super Sukohi.
 
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asianobserve

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Actually, in closely matched aircrafts the pilots determine who wins. Even those extremely patriotic in this forum will admit that Americans have far more experience in actual air combat than any other air force pilots including pilots from the IAF. Their experience on 4 - 4.5 gen combat started in 1991 until 2003, the veterans from those conflicts are now trainors and aggressors in the US. And on top of that they constantly simulate real combat with their own forces and allied air forces from Israel, UK, Ger, France, Japan, Australia, etc.
 

Armand2REP

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First of all Indian Su 30 MKI donot employees Tumansky engines
His flub of the engine maker is irrelevant.

and a precaution to FOD doesnt prove that an engine is highly subject to FOD, after all a damage is a damage minor or a major one, no turbofan engines are immune to FOD
It's written in the operations manual because it is highly subject to FOD and why they couldn't do it any faster is too dangerous.

Yes MKI probably have a huge RCS but on the other hand also have a very powerfull PESA
Yes on both counts.

radar effeciency is no less important factor then a lower RCS, radar emits radiation too, but point is who can achieve a situational advantage, the whole game was based on AWACS information feeding while IAF dont employess NATO standard communication link, AWACS employees even a bigger radar then MKI but also have a bigger RCS too
Simple fact is, there is nothing subtle about the MKI. When it lights up that radar, the enemy knows it from hundreds of km away. MKI might know where the legacy fighters are, but the enemy knows where you are even farther away. AWACs allows fighters to keep their radars passive so they are much harder to detect. When you got a 25^m2 RCS, it don't even matter, MKI won't go undetected in any scenario.

Soviets were known for their engineering marvels, but export arms are not equivalent to what they have, but MKI is believed to be one of the best 4th generation fighter ever, with further upgrades in the pipeline, the Super Sukohi.
It's better than legacy fighters if flown by well trained pilots. It is no match for dual engined Eurocanards. Kind of puts it in the middle as far a fighter. As for bomber, it was shot down by every SAM battery it crossed at Red Flag which makes it a poor bomber. Even without countermeasures, most SAMs are deflected by maneuvers but the RWR didn't give it any clue apparently.
 

Payeng

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His flub of the engine maker is irrelevant.
The same ignorance for an expert, his very first words is enough to make an impression upon his quality of lecture, if I would be their I would have asked what are the good qualities of the MKI.

It's written in the operations manual because it is highly subject to FOD and why they couldn't do it any faster is too dangerous.
I doubt if an industry operation manual to declare its own product as highly prone to damage, this must be the standard operating procedure for a safer side, please note that the intake ducts for Russian fighters are way back the landing gear compared to the American, making it highly prone to foreign object intake upon the runway, and as a precautionary measures only a skirting at the wheels have been provided nothing more then that, but on the other hand it exhibits the confidence of the engine to resists foreign particles hitting the turbofan, but as I mentioned earlier that a damage is a damage, minor or major, yes you can say Americian fighters can do a quicker job at the runway for its advantage of locating the intake ducts in a better position but what is important for a fighter jet is at the sky, Russians have a different approach towards designing an aircraft then that of the Americans, but if that would be a defect in design we would have seen some other design for the PAK-FA, this does not proves that Russian engines are more prone to FOD compared to American.

Simple fact is, there is nothing subtle about the MKI. When it lights up that radar, the enemy knows it from hundreds of km away. MKI might know where the legacy fighters are, but the enemy knows where you are even farther away. AWACs allows fighters to keep their radars passive so they are much harder to detect. When you got a 25^m2 RCS, it don't even matter, MKI won't go undetected in any scenario.
I believe for a 4th Generation fighter jet warfare, whenever the radars are radiated and whenever you get a bounce back signature, it will mean that the enemy will know your presence due to the radiation but on the other hand you will get the location of the upcoming aircraft before he does, if your signal strength is better then the opponents, so a powerful radar counts in that manner.

But warfare regarding AWACS, AESA or Elecctronic attack, it will take the warfare to a different ballgame, yes 5th generation tactics will reign over current 4th generation technologies, for a future warfare you might even not need a stealth platform to fight a war, the electronic attack technologies will take care to blind the incomming threats.

It's better than legacy fighters if flown by well trained pilots. It is no match for dual engined Eurocanards. Kind of puts it in the middle as far a fighter. As for bomber, it was shot down by every SAM battery it crossed at Red Flag which makes it a poor bomber. Even without countermeasures, most SAMs are deflected by maneuvers but the RWR didn't give it any clue apparently.
Yes it might not live upto a deep penetration mission with its current capacity, but it is never meant for that in an IAF scenerio, its main purpose is maintain Air Superiority. Regarding the RWR if it is true then it is a system fault which HAL should sort out asap. But no way it makes a lesser aircraft for IAF doctrine.
 

p2prada

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MKI is highly subject to FOD = FACT.
FICTION. It is as prone to FOD as any other aircraft including the Rafale. A vulture will not treat an aircraft in a special way if it gets sucked into the intakes.

MKI has slow launch times = FACT.
FICTION. 30seconds is as good as any. The 1 minute between take offs may have been assigned to IAF for a variety of reasons. One of them being we can outlast any aircraft in the entire exercise in terms of endurance.

MKI has poor maintenance cycles thanks to Russian orders = FACT.
Nevertheless, there were no breakdowns of the MKI and showed a 90% availability rate through out the exercise. Our operational MKIs show a high availability rate of over 90% as well.

MKI is slightly better than legacy aircraft on paper = FACT.
Agreed. Compared to a rich country like the US, we cannot upgrade our own systems as fast as theirs. Nevertheless, the MKI is meant to be upgraded on par with the F-15E and perhaps beyond that.

USAF pilots are better trained than IAF = FACT.
Agreed. They can throw more money at it as well compared to us. Also at Mountain Home AFB we sent mostly rookie pilots against American Top Guns. Victory or defeat were more because of man than the machine, as already mentioned by the Colonel. He said if the pilots had more experience, the MKIs would have beaten the F-15s.

Aggressor F-15s dominated MKI = FACT.
FICTION or pseudo-FICTION. If over 45 Aggressor F-15s can dominate 6 MKIs, then Rafales wouldnhave been dominated as well. If I remember correctly the MKIs were in the same team as the Rafales.

If you are talking about Mountain Home, then the aggressor squadrons are among the best fighter pilots in the world.

MKI was calling on contacts at least 22 miles out = FACT.
I have had this discussion before, not with you though. The MKIs needed verbal acknowledgement from American AWACS controllers in order to identify friend or foe. As mentioned by the Colonel, early on MKIs waited for confirmation before shooting. The AWACS controllers were slow in their duties. So, this resulted in more MKI losses. Later, the MKI pilots shot whatever was picked up on radar and then asked the controllers if it was a friend or foe. Blind as a bat they were. The blame squarely rests on the American AWACS controllers.

Without an IFF, if the Rafales had not been flying right behind us all the time(as said by the good Colonel), the MKIs would have shot Rafales as well.

With the Bars radar in training mode and surviving a massive electronic environment is in itself an accomplishment.

MKI has a HUGE RCS = FACT.
Agreed and has nothing to do with it. Rafale with drop tanks and MICA= HUGE RCS as well. At least enough for the MKI to lock on to the Rafale first.

Rafale pilots were cautious in a high frat situation = FACT.
I guess only Rafale pilots are cautious. The MKI pilots were probably sticking hands out of the canopy, waving and singing the national anthem.

The NATO standard IFF probably never played any role in frat for Rafales I guess. The French pilots could probably read the minds of aggressor squadrons and, "Voila, uuoou arr zeee enimee. Take French toast up vous azzz."

So, all the Frenchies have to do is to wear their underwear over the pants, put on a cape with a F on the chest and they wouldn't be any different from Superman.

Everybody is cautious, it is not some special French trait.

IAF pilots are very professional = FACT. MKI was not in the datalink = FACT.
Sums it all up.

I choose facts over opinions.
We are going to the red flag 2013, MKI pilots would have notched up a lot of flying hours by then. So, we will be in a better situation to understand the capabilities of the MKI.
 

p2prada

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It's written in the operations manual because it is highly subject to FOD and why they couldn't do it any faster is too dangerous.
Not necessary. It is not in the operations manual because it is not true. As mentioned earlier the MKIs take off every 30 seconds in India.

Simple fact is, there is nothing subtle about the MKI. When it lights up that radar, the enemy knows it from hundreds of km away. MKI might know where the legacy fighters are, but the enemy knows where you are even farther away. AWACs allows fighters to keep their radars passive so they are much harder to detect. When you got a 25^m2 RCS, it don't even matter, MKI won't go undetected in any scenario.
Let's also not forget that in the article you posted recently about Garud 2010, the Mirage-2000 pilot said the MKIs have situational awareness superior to the Rafale and Mirage-2000 where the MKIs locked on first.

As for bomber, it was shot down by every SAM battery it crossed at Red Flag which makes it a poor bomber. Even without countermeasures, most SAMs are deflected by maneuvers but the RWR didn't give it any clue apparently.
That's not how it works. Even if you pick up an enemy signal flare you will need your own countermeasures to avoid a hit. Hard maneuvering is the last option when it comes to beating SAMs. The first and foremost ones are electronic warfare, flares and chaffs. However maneuvering is a requirement throughout the flight profile.

Also it depends a lot on how the MKIs were used. The MKIs in red flag were given the role of being a bomber. So, hard maneuvering is out of the question. All the MKIs were supposed to do was beat boogies with BVR and deliver the package. That would mean flying low and fast and get out quickly. This would always put them at a disadvantage against ground based SAMs as much as against high flying interceptors from the Aggressor squadrons. Without active countermeasures you are a sitting duck in this situation.
 

ace009

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@Armand,

The USAF colonels views have been discussed and dissected in so many forums that it is useless to do this again.
Here is the gist AGAIN ...

1. His attention to details regarding MKI was bad, although his generic handwaving about how the MKI is better than the teen series fighters but worse than the F-22s are expected. He DID acknoweldge that IAF is VERY professional.
2. His assessment of the ALA is embarrasing - both the personnel (Pilot attitude) and equipment (Rafale) seem to be lacking compared to other foreign AF present there (read IAF) ...

So, what are your points?
 

Godless-Kafir

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I have watched both parts a dozen times over the years. What he says is MKI is slightly above legacy fighters on paper, but that the pilots are not on par with USAF training which is how they dusted them. All he said about Rafale was sitting back during joint force "sniffing trons" and rarely merging. It is well known we did that because MKI was frating every blue team in-front of them. When Rafale went 1v1 we won with a 4:1 ratio and watched F-16 pilots complain about how more modern Rafale is to their planes.
He said it is a "TAD BIT BETTER" than our F-16s and F-18s because it has better thrust and longer range weapons and then he does something stupid by compareing the Su-30mki hopelessly with the F-22 which is 5th generation. He was actually brought in to boost the flagging moral of the USAF pilots who thought they where better than anyone.

Your Frenche attitude down right stinks and its full of lies to cover up bull shit.
 

Galaxy

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Irkut set to upgrade India's Su-30s 'to fifth-generation standard'

Irkut set to upgrade India's Su-30s 'to fifth-generation standard'

By Rahul Bedi and JDW Correspondent New Delhi Additional reporting by Craig Caffrey

9/5/2011


Irkut Corporation's plans to upgrade the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) Su-30MKI fleet will provide the fighter with capabilities similar to that of fifth-generation combat aircraft, Russian industry officials have said.

Speaking at the Moscow Air Show on 19 August Alexei Fedorov, the head of Irkut, announced that in addition to upgraded cockpit avionics and enhancements to the aircraft's radar, the so-called 'Super Sukhoi' will also receive modifications aimed at improving stealth capabilities. While the exact nature of these stealth modifications remains unclear, reports suggest the work will specifically focus on reducing the aircraft's radar signature.

The enhancements to the aircraft's radar could include upgrading the existing NIIP N011M Bars radar with an active electronically scanned array (AESA) antenna, thereby offering a substantial improvement in performance.

Fedorov confirmed that negotiations for the upgrade of the Su-30MKI, of which the IAF will eventually operate 272, are at an advanced stage.

"The upgrade will apply not only to the aircraft in service with the IAF, but also to those yet to be delivered to India and those being licence-manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited [HAL]," Fedorov said.

India signed an INR150 billion (USD3.33 billion) deal in June 2010 for an additional 42 Su-30MKI 'Flanker-H' fighters, of which HAL is building 140 under licence.

Fedorov said the 'Super Sukhoi' would be able to carry a heavier weapon load, including the Indo-Russian developed BrahMos cruise missile, but declined to provide technical details of the upgrade or its cost as negotiations are continuing.


Defence Security Report
 

p2prada

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This Prasun Gupta was the first guy who claimed the Bars will be upgraded to AESA instead of Phazatron's option. Seems like he may not be a moron in some aspects after all.
 

Godless-Kafir

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What can they do about the RC of existing 4th gen technology?

1) They may use low RC paints.

2) They may enhance Radar jamming technology.

3) They may use that flexible airflow duct blocker, we see on the Pak-Fa.

4) ???? Anything else, they will do?
 

agentperry

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42 su-30s which were recently ordered will only be included in this super-30 program. rest will be of mki configurations.
these 42 wil feature cruise missile carrying capabilities and will augment mirag-2000 fleet in deep penetration land attack ops.
just like them mirage-2000 is also speculated to be upgraded to 5th gen config.
 

p2prada

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42 su-30s which were recently ordered will only be included in this super-30 program. rest will be of mki configurations.
these 42 wil feature cruise missile carrying capabilities and will augment mirag-2000 fleet in deep penetration land attack ops.
just like them mirage-2000 is also speculated to be upgraded to 5th gen config.
No. The 42 will be given the capability to fire Brahmos. Other than that all MKIs will receive the 5th gen upgrade in some form or the other.

Better RAM will be used along with composites wherever it can be adopted.

Other than that there will be a massive avionics upgrade which will include AESA, HMS, new MFDs, MAWS, LWS, RWR, EW, satellite comm/navigation and the works.

Mirage-2000s will not get any kind of 5th gen upgrade.
 

p2prada

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Can super su-30 reach su-35BM standard ?
In terms of technology, the MKI will surpass the Su-35 by a long shot.

But in terms of aerodynamics in the supersonic regime and better engines the BM will maintain the lead. If we are only upgrading the MKI with a higher thrust variant of the AL31FP and not the 117S then it will be inferior in this aspect. If MKI will come with 117S then we have a winner.

In terms of RCS reduction, we will have to see. The MKIs already built may not see a significant decrease but the MKIs yet to be built may see a significant drop. I have heard rumours the new paint job we received 2 years ago has reduced frontal RCS between 3 to 5m2 in existing MKIs. But we cannot ride on speculation alone. So, forget about actually seeing an official document on RCS for MKI.

The Su-35 is an extension of the MKI program, so both aircraft are similar in a lot of aspects. People across the border have the right to be afraid.
 

agentperry

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No. The 42 will be given the capability to fire Brahmos. Other than that all MKIs will receive the 5th gen upgrade in some form or the other.

Better RAM will be used along with composites wherever it can be adopted.

Other than that there will be a massive avionics upgrade which will include AESA, HMS, new MFDs, MAWS, LWS, RWR, EW, satellite comm/navigation and the works.

Mirage-2000s will not get any kind of 5th gen upgrade.
mirage will get next gen capabilities... well said by def minister, air chief and well recorded by media. moreover if u go thru all the previous articles pertaining 42 su-30 purchase then its pretty much clear that only latest 42 su-30 will be upgraded to super-30 config.... research... i stand by facts
 

bhramos

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42 su-30s which were recently ordered will only be included in this super-30 program. rest will be of mki configurations.
these 42 wil feature cruise missile carrying capabilities and will augment mirag-2000 fleet in deep penetration land attack ops.
just like them mirage-2000 is also speculated to be upgraded to 5th gen config.
these 42 Su-30 would be of MK standard not MKI, these are mainly of Bomber standards, these will be under Strategic Command for N-missions and Bombing role and can carry Brahmos,
 
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