Stand with Pakistani Christian Refugees - Hector Aleem

[thethinker]

Blasphemy in Pakistan is legal and binding - who knew!??

Thirty-one Pakistanis Falsely Accused of Blasphemy

ISLAMABAD (Worthy News)– International Christian Concern reported Tuesday that 29 Christians and two Muslims have been accused of blasphemy in Chak village, Faisalabad.The Superintendent of Police charged all 31 under Section 297 of Pakistan's Penal Code: "trespassing on burial places." Twenty of the 29 Christians accused are under arrest while the rest are in hiding.

According ICC sources, Christians had requested a plot of land from a local politician for use as a Christian cemetery. Muhammad Iqbal then granted their request, but as the Christians leveled the ground to prepare it for graves, public announcements coming from local mosques claimed that they had instead bulldozed over the graves of Muslims!

"For years and years, I have not seen any funeral taking place at this location [or] any grave or a single sign of a graveyard in that particular piece of land," Mubarik Masih told ICC.

ICC's Regional Manager for South Asia, William Stark said: "This incident involving Pakistan's controversial blasphemy law should clearly highlight the abuse of the law for the international community. Originally written to protect against religious intolerance, the law has warped into a tool used by extremists and others to settle personal scores and persecute Pakistan's vulnerable religious minorities. In 2013 alone, thirty-six individuals were accused of blasphemy in Pakistan. Of that thirty-six, thirty were religious minorities and twelve of those were Christians. Given that Christians only make up two percent of Pakistan's population, the fact that one-third of blasphemy accusations made in 2013 were leveled against Christians should be seen as highly disturbing. Beyond being disproportionately accused and convicted of blasphemy, the vast majority of blasphemy accusations brought against Christians are false, like the accusations leveled in this particular incident."

 

[bose]

Hindu nationalist groups seek to 'cleanse' Christian population in India

2014-09-09 Vatican Radio

(Vatican Radio) The watchdog group International Christian Concern (ICC) said in a press release that nationalist groups have been directing hate speech toward Christians and leading attacks on pastors and churches in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh. Believers are reportedly worried that radical Hindu nationalism and persecution of minorities will escalate.

John Dayal, a member of the Indian government's National Integration Council, said: "There has been a sharp rise in hate campaigns against Christians by political organizations. This threat of purging Christians from villages extends from Chhattisgarh and Madhya Pradesh to now Uttar Pradesh, and to the borders of the national capital of New Delhi."

There have been reports of churches being turned into Hindu temples, and entire mobs attacking Christian houses. ICC shared details about one incident in July where a church in Sahakarinagar village was rampaged through by a group of 25 Hindu radicals, led by Hemanth Singh, a leader in the local Bajrangdal group.

Rev. RC Paul, who was leading a Bible study at the church at the time, was beaten along with several other members. "We were shaken and are very scared of the situation in the area. We are concerned of our safety, even going alone outside looks very dangerous at the moment," Paul said.

In fact, there have been reports of sporadic violence against Christians are also coming from other South Indian States like Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Tamil Nadu where several anti social elements under the banner of Hindu Nationalist organisations have been going on the rampage attacking Christians in their Churches and homes causing severe injuries and damage to Christian Property, not to speak of desecration of the sacred objects that they could lay their hands on.

ICC noted in its press release that news headlines will continue to focus on Christian persecution at the hands of terror group ISIS in Iraq, but argued that the international community "must take notice of the issues of Christian persecution globally".

"Like Christians facing ISIS in Iraq, millions of Christians across India are facing persecution at the hands of radical Hindu nationalist groups," the watchdog group added. "Without drastic change, this difficult situation will likely only get worse, as radical Hindu nationalist groups popping up across India have been given almost complete impunity under the new Hindu nationalist government led by BJP and Narendra Modi."

Following May's election of the nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party, several Indian church leaders had said that they were not concerned that extremist groups would rise up against minorities. "Minorities, such as Christians and Muslims, are an integral part of the nation and of the social fabric of Indian society. Minorities are protected by the Constitution, I believe that the new government cannot and will not want to go against the Constitution. As Christians we are confident," His Exc. Mgr. Stanley Roman, bishop of Quilon, in the state of Kerala, had said at the time.

But no one can deny that India's Hindutva (Hindu nationalist) forces wanted the Barantya Janata Party (BJP) to win power at state and federal levels with absolute majorities so they can rule outright and not have their Hindutva program hamstrung by coalition partners. Uniting Hindus to dragnet the Hindu vote was vastly important to Hindutva as India, which is almost 80 percent Hindu, has numerous political parties.

Pursuing the Hindu vote the Hindutva forces have unleashed a vicious propaganda of Indian harmony, culture, identity, security, sovereignty and territorial integrity being seriously under threat from indigenous Christian missionaries, whom they describe variously as terrorists, separatists and CIA operatives. According to the Hindutva propaganda, the only way to save India is to unite behind Hindutva. 'Hindu Jago, Christi Bhagao!' – ('Arise Hindus, throw out the Christians!') - is their slogan.

What is alarming is that Hindu nationalists are now committing their violent attacks in front of television cameras, public meetings and even in the parliament. There have also been TV images which portray the perpetrators of violence as Hindutva cult heroes! The obvious silence and the presumably tacit approval of the Federal government to these serious developments have only fuelled further violence and has encouraged and bolstered the Hindutva hoodlums to terrorise the hapless Christians, who are more often than not, from the lower economic strata.

Msgr. Albert D'Souza, archbishop of Agra, in the state of Uttar Pradesh, and general secretary of the Indian Bishops' Conference, added that sometimes "small groups of fanatics can give us concern," but argued that the Church "will continue in its mission to pray for the new government and contribute to the common good of the nation, supporting democracy, respect for pluralism, the rights of all and a secular concept in the political agenda."

New Delhi Archbishop Anil J. Couto has now also raised concern, however, at the rising attacks on Christians and churches in India in recent months. "It is very disturbing, and we request local authorities to take adequate measures to book the miscreants threatening to weaken the social fabric of this great nation," Couto said.

"The Sangh Parivar plan [is] to carry out shuddhikaran — attempts to re-convert Christians to Hinduism," the Archbishop continued."This move by fundamentalist groups is a grave assault on the fundamental rights of individuals and people and groups."

Other persecution watchdog ministries, like Open Doors, have also noted a rise in Hindu extremism targeting Christians. The group ranks India as number 28 on its list of countries where Christians face the most persecution.

In May of this year, a village council in India passed an ordinance attempting to ban all Christian religious activity in a festival area. That came after some Christians in the village refused to pay a festival tax to a local Hindu temple. As a result of the village council's efforts, Hindu radicals in other parts of India have attempted to get similar ordinances in their area. In some cases they were successful. The council decrees were eventually overturned when they reached the district administration, but Stark says that isn't helping ease concerns.

In late July this year the Chief of the Rashtriya Swayam Sevak Sangh (RSS), a prominent Hindu Nationalist Organisation, courted controversy saying the world recognised India as a Hindu rashtra (nation). "So Hindutva is India's identity. It's the identity of everybody staying in this country. Except the Jews and the Parsis, everybody's ancestors in India were Hindus. We are all influenced by the Hindu culture."

Stating that "ours is a Hindu rashtra", Mr. Bhagwat said the sole aim of the RSS was "to mobilise the Hindu society on the basis of Hindutva." "Mobilising those who have forgotten that they are Hindus is the next task in line!" The RSS, regarded as the ideological head of the BJP had backed Narendra Modi for the general elections.

Source: Christian Post

Hindu nationalist groups seek to 'cleanse' Christian population in India

What the Christian Post has to say when the Christian NGO's with American and European money were luring poor Hindus with money / land and promising better life for last 100 years ?? I have seen on my own eyes how they operate.... Those Hindus have now found out that those promises were hoax now they want to come back to Hinduism... The Hindus are now organizing themselves and hitting back those Christian NGO's and we now see mass conversion back into Hinduism and the same Churches which these people were using into Temples....

The government specially the so called secular one's like Congress were silent when all these illegal activities were going on... The payback has started not now but from last 15 to 20 years...

 

[thethinker]

Crap of load again. Yes, as muslims we don't believe in present day Judaism or Christianity and at 'muslim' schools we teach them the history of Islam and why it came into being. The subject is cumpulsary in govt schools and its called Islamiyaat.

Our Christian friend conveniently forgets to mention that there are specific and dedicated 'Christian' schools in Pakistan where the Bible studies are taught instead of Islamiyaat and the latter is only an optional subject. He conveniently forgets to mention how Christianity was spread into the Muslim/Arab world and the Sub-Continent. He conveniently expects the muslims to forget the millions of muslims lives that were lost when Christianity was forced to them with the sword.

So, what you are basically saying is :

It is ok to persecute Christians in Pakistan as once upon a time they did the same to Arabs. Tit for tat !

Yes?

 

[Srinivas_K]

Crap of load again. Yes, as muslims we don't believe in present day Judaism or Christianity and at 'muslim' schools we teach them the history of Islam and why it came into being. The subject is cumpulsary in govt schools and its called Islamiyaat.

Our Christian friend conveniently forgets to mention that there are specific and dedicated 'Christian' schools in Pakistan where the Bible studies are taught instead of Islamiyaat and the latter is only an optional subject. He conveniently forgets to mention how Christianity was spread into the Muslim/Arab world and the Sub-Continent. He conveniently expects the muslims to forget the millions of muslims lives that were lost when Christianity was forced to them with the sword.

you are not catching my point nor you understood my post clearly,

I am talking about propagation of Islam by force and freedom, most of you so called self proclaimed thakedars of Islam and Pakistanis second are forgetting Jinnah speech about minorities and their rights in Pakistan. Brain washing in the name of GOD and inducing fear by delusional gifts like 72 virgins and heaven is absolutely wrong particularly if those kids are Christians.

Who gives you the right to do so and how can you forcefully convert the minorities and persecute them ??

Christian countries now a days are far better in religious freedom than religious bigots in pakistan.

 

[Neo]

What the Christian Post has to say when the Christian NGO's with American and European money were luring poor Hindus with money / land and promising better life for last 100 years ?? I have seen on my own eyes how they operate.... Those Hindus have now found out that those promises were hoax now they want to come back to Hinduism... The Hindus are now organizing themselves and hitting back those Christian NGO's and we now see mass conversion back into Hinduism and the same Churches which these people were using into Temples....

The government specially the so called secular one's like Congress were silent when all these illegal activities were going on... The payback has started not now but from last 15 to 20 years...

Not every Indian Christian will agree with you, many remain devoted to their religion and feel threatened and discriminated.

If any of those Indian Christian made a fb page insulting Indian institutions and religion and then started a thread here. Would you still show same sympathy as for Mr Worldpeace here?

 

[Neo]

So, what you are basically saying is :

It is ok to persecute Christians in Pakistan as once upon a time they did the same to Arabs. Tit for tat !

Yes?

No, I am only trying to make a point that Mr.Worldpeace is only telling one side of the story and ignoring the fact that Christians schools have their right to teach Christian religion and values.
It may be noted that these Christian Schools in Pakistan, specially the Murree Christian Boarding School belong to one of the best in education standards. Elite children go there including many from the armed services.

 

[thethinker]

No, I am only trying to make a point that Mr.Worldpeace is only telling one side of the story and ignoring the fact that Christians schools have their right to teach Christian religion and values.
It.may be noted that these Christian Schools in Pakistan, specially the Murree Christian Boarding School belong.to.one of the best in education standards. Elite children go there including many from the armed services.

Please explain why is blasphemy a law in Pakistan ?

And why does it involve being used against a disproportionate number of minority people?

 

[bose]

Not every Indian Christian will agree with you, many remain devoted to their religion and feel threatened and discriminated.

Yes they will not, nor I am saying that innocents should be targeted for no fault of theirs... These cases are confined to the areas where these Christian NGO's have operated illigally specially in tribal areas of eastern India...

If any of those Indian Christian made a fb page insulting Indian institutions and religion and then started a thread here. Would you still show same sympathy as for Mr Worldpeace here?

Actually it is very easy to do that in India... specially hurting Hindu sentiments in garb of freedom of expression and creativity... very recently a so called secular Testa Setelvad came up with offensive images at fb hurting Hindu sensitivity and that too without any remorse.... The more anti Hindu you become more secular you are...

 

[Neo]

you are not catching my point nor you understood my post clearly,

I am talking about propagation of Islam by force and freedom, most of you so called self proclaimed thakedars of Islam and Pakistanis second are forgetting Jinnah speech about minorities and their rights in Pakistan. Brain washing in the name of GOD and inducing fear by delusional gifts like 72 virgins and heaven is absolutely wrong particularly if those kids are Christians.

Who gives you the right to do so and how can you forcefully convert the minorities and persecute them ??

Christian countries now a days are far better in religious freedom than religious bigots in pakistan.

Again, its only one side of the story. I won't deny that some religious groups and even political parties have an anti-minority agenda, its is also true that there are many success stories. Christans have done much better than hindus in Pakistan and they continue to do so. PAF has decorated Christian heroes, army has them, there's a succesful Christian business community and Christian teachers are always welcome to teach in reputable instituions.

We have Christians participating at every level.
Just to give you a small evidence, take Pakistan Idol which made its debute with Geo Entertainment.
A 16 year old Christian Girl, Rosemary made it to the Top Ten and ended at 6th place. People loved her, muslim Pakistanis voted for her at the cost of many tallented muslim singers.

Things are far from ideal in Pakistan for minorities but it is often exaggrated by the media.

 

[Neo]

Please explain why is blasphemy a law in Pakistan ?

And why does it involve being used against a disproportionate number of minority people?

Blasphemy Law was never part of our constitution but it was added by this idiot called Nawaz Shareef in early nineties. He has been an arab lapdog right from the beginning of his political carrier under Zia.

Hopefully we will get rid of it soon as many Pakistanis are against it.

 

[Srinivas_K]

Again, its only one side of the story. I won't deny that some religious groups and even political parties have an anti-minority agenda, its is also true that there are many success stories. Christans have done much better than hindus in Pakistan and they continue to do so. PAF has dexorated Christian heroes, army has them, there's a succesful Christian business community and Christian teachers are always welcome in reputable instituions.

We have Christians participating at every level.
Just to give you a small evidence, take Pakistan Idol which made its debute with Geo Entertainment.
A 16 year old Christian Girl, Rosemary made it to the Top Ten and ended at 6th place. People loved her, muslim Pakistanis voted for her at the cost of many talented muslum singers.

Things are far from ideal in Pakistan for minorities but it is often exaggrated by the media.

That is not true ...... the media is portraying the persecution of minorities as it is.

It is the mind set of Abrahamic religions to convert people by hook and crook.

It has become a fashion for Islamic scholars to deny that these things are unIslamic when these forced conversions and other atrocities are brought to their attentions.

Islamic holy texts preach to survive even if some of the core principles are not followed, they encourage to lie and cheat.

When they are majority the same Islamic texts preach to get rid of the minorities even if there is blood shed.

Prime example is, When Muhammed started his prophethood he was in minority and so the Quranic verses talks about tolerance and peace, as Muhammed's power grew he asks muslims to kill infidels.

I have no idea what kind of religion Islam is but, one thing is sure. This holy text talks about politics.

Politics are not noble some times they are dirty.

if we compare it to Hindu texts like Bagawad Gita, there also Krishna talks about politics but there it is Good vs Bad, no hypocrisy.

 

[thethinker]

Blasphemy Law was never part of our constitution but it was added by this idiot called Nawaz Shareef in early nineties. He has been an arab lapdog right from the beginning of his political carrier under Zia.

Hopefully we will get rid of it soon as many Pakistanis are against it.

Again, this is an interesting insight.

Positive developments in Pakistan remain in future tense while negative ones belong to present tense.

 

[Neo]

Again, this is an interesting insight.

Positive developments in Pakistan remain in future tense while negative ones belong to present tense.

Even an Islamic scholar like Tahir ul Qadri, chaiman of Pakistan Awam Tehreek PAT criticises the unsecular pracrices of our government. He often endorses the views of Jinnah's Pakistan in his speeches.

 

[thethinker]

Even an Islamic scholar like Tahir ul Qadri, chaiman of Pakistan Awam Tehreek PAT criticises the unsecular pracrices of our government. He often endorses the views of Jinnah's Pakistan in his speeches.

Criticizing unsecular practices is not the same as correcting them.

In fact, criticizing is fashionable now for reasons that range from political mileage to popularity boost.

 

[thethinker]

That is not true ...... the media is portraying the persecution of minorities as it is.

It is the mind set of Abrahamic religions to convert people by hook and crook.

It has become a fashion for Islamic scholars to deny that these things are unIslamic when these forced conversions and other atrocities are brought to their attentions.

Islamic holy texts preach to survive even if some of the core principles are not followed to survive, they encourage to lie and cheat.

When they are majority the same Islamic texts preach to get rid of the minorities even if there is blood shed.

Prime example is, When Muhammed started his prophethood he was in minority and so the Quranic verses talks about tolerance and peace, as Muhammed's power grew he asks muslims to kill infidels.

I have no idea what kind of religion Islam is but one thing is sure, This holy text talks about politics.

Politics are not noble some times they are dirty.

if we compare it to Hindu texts like Bagawad Gita, there also Krishna talks about politics but there it is Good vs Bad, no hypocrisy.

Food for thought :

Muslim Persecution Of Christians | Raymond Ibrahim

 

[ladder]

Participation of non hindu members is not denied but its the way how hindutva metality and views are propagated here make it a very unfriendly place for worlds largest religion, the Islam.
Which brings me back to my pont the the OP will make a lot of friends here.

But it brings forth a question, are you jealous of OP?

But, that's not the point, you said "And you think you are helping your cause by posting anti Pakistan stuff on an hindu forum?"

So, how can hindu forum be inherently anti-national for Pakistan?

Would you say that if he had said that in a forum owned by Pakistani Hindu? As your statement is indicating the same.

Well world's be it world's largest religion or world's smallest religion or most persecuted religion, historically has found safe refuge in the shores of India. But, none of them have been given any special status, they have lived by intermingling and being a part of the society.

Now, it's your views that Muslims find this forum unfriendly, but you don't represent the whole of Muslim community of the whole world. This mentality, is a trait of Pakistani, which is called 'thekedari'. And believe me none here will find it anything extraordinary coming from you.

For being hindu is anti national for Pakistan and being Pakistani, you represent the world's all Muslim people are the most logic dished out.

You might find this forum unfriendly, but it's your own taste buds which are at fault.

So, it brings me back to my point that your sensory perceptions are not universal truth, as was your 'two nation theory'.

 

[Neo]

Criticizing unsecular practices is not the same as correcting them.

In fact, criticizing is fashionable now for reasons that range from political mileage to popularity boost.

He has no power to correct them, the privilege belongs to only a few political dynasties in Pakistan.

Critic is part of dirty politics and I believe we are the undisputed and unchallenged world champions here. But what Qadri and Imran Khan are trying to do is to bring
awareness and mobilise the masses against this failed political system. If they succeed, a lot will change in Pakistan. And that goes for the minorities as well.

 

[Neo]

That is not true ...... the media is portraying the persecution of minorities as it is.

It is the mind set of Abrahamic religions to convert people by hook and crook.

It has become a fashion for Islamic scholars to deny that these things are unIslamic when these forced conversions and other atrocities are brought to their attentions.

Islamic holy texts preach to survive even if some of the core principles are not followed, they encourage to lie and cheat.

When they are majority the same Islamic texts preach to get rid of the minorities even if there is blood shed.

Prime example is, When Muhammed started his prophethood he was in minority and so the Quranic verses talks about tolerance and peace, as Muhammed's power grew he asks muslims to kill infidels.

I have no idea what kind of religion Islam is but, one thing is sure. This holy text talks about politics.

Politics are not noble some times they are dirty.

if we compare it to Hindu texts like Bagawad Gita, there also Krishna talks about politics but there it is Good vs Bad, no hypocrisy.

I donot wish to discuss Islam or other Abramic religions here.

 

[ladder]

Another stupid argument made for local consumption only. Millions of hindus migrated to India after the participation.
The percentage of muslims in India fell for the same reason, more than half the Indian muslims became Pakistani after the partition.

Why only half of the Muslims of India became Pakistani? Why not all? If your 2 nation theory was correct, they should have.
For how much Hindus were in Pakistan after Independence, after 1971 Bangladesh and now, is well documented. But, invariably is falling even today, why? why isn't it rising?
Why are Hindus of Pakistan living in India as refugees? Are Indian Muslims are in Pakistan living as refugees?

Was any Hindu or Christian told when they opted for Pakistan in 1947 that cannot take any constitutional post in Pakistan? Even to get into army you have to swear allegiance that you shall be soldier od Allah?

So, kindly keep your distorted logic to yourself, the prosecution of minority in your country is epic.

And just yesterday, 51 people from minority community were arrested on a single complain of Blasphemy. I am not attaching the link to the sorry story, in the hope that atleast you follow news about what's happening back home.

 

[Srinivas_K]

I donot wish to discuss Islam or other Abramic religions here.

Most of you people do not want to discuss religion because there is no logic or reasoning behind the holy texts, the more you discuss the more it becomes evident that it is a blind belief in todays context.