Something Rotten in the State of the Armed Forces

[sob]

That the crux of the whole problem which dominates the minds of our politicians, bureaucrats, policy makers and even the generals - that the war will be over in three days with Pakistan. But the reality is something else. What does the history say :

# Indo- Pak War 1947 - Oct 1948 - Dec 1948
# Indo Pak War 1965 - 17 Days intense War
# Indo Pak War 1971 - 05 Sep -14 Dec 1971
# Kargil War - Mid May - 14 Jul

Indian Neta and Babu's belief of four days war post Pokharan was brought to the ground by Pakistani General Mushraff who pulled their pants down when in spite of India having nuclear weapons he imposed a 60 days attrition war on India in Kargil. He gleefully claims that he held India by her throat.

Wonder how Indian Army has reached this forty days (intense) figure ? Subsequently bend down to 20 days MARL? All kind courtesy Saint Antony, MMS, MoD Babus and inept and inefficient OFB. They were all busy making money and buying journalists like Parveen Swamy.

Sir,
My reply was in a different context to that Gentleman across the border.

The person who says that we should not be prepared for a 2 front war should be admitted to a mental asylum immediately.

We can argue on a strategy point of view whether a 2 front war will happen or not, but it would be criminally insane not to plan for one. I would not be in the know of how much war reserves are required, 20 days or 40 days. We will have to go with what the IA decides based on the threat assessments.

On another thread the shortages shown by you through the CAG report are indeed shocking and needs to be addressed immediately.

 

[Zebra]

I don't trust one word coming out of this slimeball called Praveen Swamy.

The moment someone pop up from IA and announce that they are ready.

That's it. The same drama, again and again.

Nothing new.

 

[Bhadra]

Thats the thing, see what history says and why you only expect a war with Pak despite you think china as a bigger threat.

Because, China is not such a fool. They have been fighting their wars with India through Pakistan.. when there is someone to fight their war why should they ??

That is so simple.

 

[Bhadra]

Sir,
My reply was in a different context to that Gentleman across the border.

The person who says that we should not be prepared for a 2 front war should be admitted to a mental asylum immediately.

We can argue on a strategy point of view whether a 2 front war will happen or not, but it would be criminally insane not to plan for one. I would not be in the know of how much war reserves are required, 20 days or 40 days. We will have to go with what the IA decides based on the threat assessments.

On another thread the shortages shown by you through the CAG report are indeed shocking and needs to be addressed immediately.

Sir, this wrong notions of 4-5 days war exist more prominently across the border. They think that they will be able to reach Delhi or Capture Kashmir in 4-5 days. That notion existed in 1948 and 1965, in 1971 and even during Kargil. And their friends did intervene and saved their backsides. This is not unobserved by the Indian generals who tend to believe that their political leadership will buckle down and order termination of war after a few days. This mind set unfortunately remains and there are not many generals in the Army or politicians who think of China. They all still remain in Nehruvian mould.

Pakistani notion is that they will attack India, capture a large part of it then frantically call their international friends (UK, USA and China) who will intervene and before they are given a solid beating by Indians, they would escape westwards. That is why they fight well for the first four days and then start looking at the sky..

Notwithstanding that, in the present day situation, where long drawn war between nations would be devastating in view of RMA, high economic costs and very intense war causing very high attrition, it is generally accepted militarily that wars will be swift, very intense, technologically driven and short. A few years back PLA also accepted this and changed their doctrine to " war as ..... initiative in a high-intensity conflict of short duration, would be a complicated task. "

http://www.claws.in/images/journals_doc/1399528913Monika Chansoria CJ Winter 2009.pdf

Given that context of swift short but very intense Wars, the ammunition reserves are required to be always ready, full and Indian Army needs to change the scales of reserves from the old second world war scales to cater for new requirements where one second line may not be enough to cater for a day's war. The scaling of reserves and their availability also needs to have a relook.

 

[sgarg]

@sob, the reason for shortages is primarily inefficiency of the government sector. India reserved military production for public sector in its convoluted wisdom, which has created many dinosaurs. Our enemies know the weakness of our defence industries. This is why people who criticize private sector must be branded as anti-nationals as report after report has brought out the shortcomings of public sector.

India has no option but to go for a competitive arms industry like USA.

 

[Bhadra]

Critical deficiency in ammunition in very vital areas exist due to inability of the DRDO to absorve TOT and OFBs inability to manufacture ammunition.

It is indeed very sickening how can we have below zero percent of main ammunition of 125 mm Tank guns. 125 mm tanks guns are the mainstay of our T-72 and T-90 tanks guns. so we will be fighting a war with Pakistan posing our trucks as tanks or present our tanks for them to shoot at our arses. They did not even have PKT MG rounds to fire. Ah .. what tanks ?? DRDO ..Jai Ho..

Zero stock and you have tanks to boast of CSD... really scary !!

If this is not sabotage then what is it ? Why some Saints be tried for treason. Can Praveen Swamy answer this rather than blame Indian Army and hound Gen VK Singh for writing a letter to not so honourable MMS in the past. Then Sekhar Gupta cooking up a coup theory! Slowly and slowly people are coming to know about a gang of prestitutes and anti national elements in the press including those second track Siachin sellers types, Kargil Types, Mumbai types and internet Hindu types.

There should be no prizes in guessing who stopped CSD dead in tracks before it could even start.

 

[hit&run]

Paraveen Swami enough said.

The same guy was accusing government of paranoia on each Pakistani violation of LOC and that terror boat entering in Indian waters. Now in this article he is accusing Modi government of treating Pakistani proxy war as normal entity.

He starts with #NaMo365 (His real purpose), and ends with this

The Modi Government has abdicated its primary responsibility: to ask the three services to prepare a combined threat assessment of Pakistan and China for which acquisitions are sought. Otherwise, the defence allocations of Rs 2,46,727 crore for 2015-16 will be a wasted sum.

Wow what a strong word ^^ he has used for present Government who is still bogged down in filling pits previous government left for them.

PS picked a recent hot debate of Army short of ammunition and then loaded his article with all the preach he could suggest. I was watching a NDTV discussion where an ex OFB said that during 90s they had to keep it to minimum for 9 as once they even went below that. He wasn't sure why 20 days of ammunition is not enough now. @Ray

 

[Bhadra]

PS picked a recent hot debate of Army short of ammunition and then loaded his article with all the preach he could suggest. I was watching a NDTV discussion where an ex OFB said that during 90s they had to keep it to minimum for 9 as once they even went below that. He wasn't sure why 20 days of ammunition is not enough now. @Ray

He was l lieing through his nose :

"
Ammunition is categorized as Class ‘A’ stores and its provisioning is governed by DGOS Technical Instruction (TI) issued in 1970 with the concurrence of Ministry. The aim of an Annual Provision Review (APR) is to assess liabilities and assets for the provision period and to place ew/supplementary/reduction demands, as necessary, on the various supplying agencies. This exercise is carried out in the month of July of the preceding year of the provision period by DGOS and is based on inputs from the ammunition stocking Depots. Provisioning of Ammunition items is undertaken on the basis of Unit Entitlement (UEs) (if these are likely to be made up during the provisioning period in question), otherwise on Unit Holding (UHs) of weapons. The TI further states that once the net requirement is worked out, the demands are to be placed by DGOS to cover the full liability on DGOF, without taking into consideration the production capacity of OFB or shortfall in supplies against previous demands.


A unit is authorised First Line of ammunition (two intense engagements), second line (one intense engagement) (one or more such scales) of ammunition and War Wastage Reserve called WWR. It is the reserve intended to meet the requirements for the expected duration of operations or until the indigenous production can get into its stride or other arrangements is made for procurement of ammunition. WWR level is shown in “days” and indicates the quantum of stock to be maintained to cater for the duration of war. WWR forms the basis for working out the requirements of ammunition during the provisioning review. In April 1979 the Government approved authorization of WWR on the concept of 30 days of intense period and another 30 days at the Normal rate. This authorization was reviewed and Ministry revised the WWR rates in October 2010 to 40 days of intense period i.e. 40 (I). The revision was done by referring WWR rates of April 1979 and taking one day intense rate being quivalent to three days normal rate.


(Source : CAG Audit report)

 

[Ray]

For a man who wrote regarding the massacre the Maoist did on the Congress cavalcade

From here on, India has to make a fundamental choice: to decide if our democracy is worth killing, or stop sending men to die for a cause we don’t believe in.
http://www.firstpost.com/india/chha...e-indian-state-was-caught-napping-815729.html

one cannot expect any sane and honest commentary.

Is it not a fundamental choice that we fight for integrity of our democracy or should we fold up and allow the Maoist to rule with their ruthless ideology and mayhem. Only a daft man could raise this issue;

Maybe the ilks of Geelani, Arondoti Roy and Swami feel that the Nation does not believe in the cause to stop the terrorists and Maoist. Them apart, the Nation does believe in the cause.

That said, on to the article.

It is a total misrepresentation of facts and the manner in which priorities are selected.

Defence of the Nation is not the sole prerogative of the Armed Force. It is also the task of the Govt, to which the Armed Forces are subordinate. The Armed Forces do not acquire the money to kit it. It is the Govt which does through the Budget. And to be fair to the Govt, it is not the Defence that alone has to have its organisation up to par. There is Education, Health, Agriculture, and the whole gamut of areas that catalyses the growth of a Nation. None can be ignored.

It is as per the Govt's perception, the pie from the Budget is given to the various Depts to include Defence.

Within the Budget allocated, the Depts including Defence has to prioritize the laundry list.

Would having WWR to scale when tanks and arty are lying unserviceable and would not be in a position to use the ammunition? Or to have the adequate numbers so that the ammunition comes to use? Ammunition alone cannot win wars. It is a machine ammunition mix that does. Thus, It is stupid and mischievous of Swami to state that WWR has been neglected.

That is just one example.

One cannot waste time of agenda driven stupidity of the so called sab jantas.

 

[Ray]

Thats the thing, see what history says and why you only expect a war with Pak despite you think china as a bigger threat.

Because Pakistan is irrational.

China is careful and pragmatic and not prone to whims and fancies.

 

[Singh]

Praveen Swamy is a different guy. This article is by Pravin Sawhney.

 

[Ray]

Praveen Swamy is a different guy. This article is by Pravin Sawhney.

Both are self opiniated sab jantas, but better than Shaker Gupta, the coup fantasy man.

check this interview done on Pravin Sawhmney

Service chief's post should be a political appointment: Pravin Sawhney
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...ppointment-pravin-sawhney-114041900901_1.html

Sawhney says in the Interview

Q. Is the appointment of the chiefs of the armed forces becoming overly politicised?

A, I would argue to the contrary. The appointment of service chiefs should be a political act because ideally, the political and military leadership should work together. What requires reforms is the system of creating the final panel of officers (by the defence ministry) from which a service chief is selected.

Armed Forces are apolitical and hence there has been no Pakistan out here.

Imagine Generals tagging along to various political parties for favours that when there time come, because of their political affiliation and sycophancy, they will be selected.

It is adequate to see how the Police has become totally politicised and work for the politicians and not for the citizens, which is the fist task and raison d'être.
.

 

[Singh]

Both are self opiniated sab jantas, but better than Shaker Gupta, the coup fantasy man.

check this interview done on Pravin Sawhmney



Sawhney says in the Interview



Armed Forces are apolitical and hence there has been no Pakistan out here.

Imagine Generals tagging along to various political parties for favours that when there time come, because of their political affiliation and sycophancy, they will be selected.

It is adequate to see how the Police has become totally politicised and work for the politicians and not for the citizens, which is the fist task and raison d'être.
.

Apparently Praveen Swamy was fed the same coup story as Shekhar Gupta by a very highly placed source. Swamy declined, Shekhar went ahead.

Swamy at one time had a lot of clout, possibly still does. Due to rivalry amongst agencies, he was used as a go between for trading info.

 

[Ray]

PS picked a recent hot debate of Army short of ammunition and then loaded his article with all the preach he could suggest. I was watching a NDTV discussion where an ex OFB said that during 90s they had to keep it to minimum for 9 as once they even went below that. He wasn't sure why 20 days of ammunition is not enough now. @Ray

WWR is based on not a gut feeling but a scientific and statistical model based on previous wars.

In the same debate, Gen Malik stated that there was the 'Intense' and 'Normal' Rate.

However, if I remember correctly, there was the 'Intense', 'Moderate', 'Normal' and 'Slow'.

In a campaign, there are battlefields where the intensity of warfare varies. All along the front cannot be Intense or Normal.

For instance, in 1971, the Battle of Basantar was Intense, but it was not so, let us say, in Rajauri sector. Therefore, the expenditure of ammunition was different.

Maybe now, the stipulation has changed given that the Kargil War was which spanned nearly 3 months while the longest war till then of 20 days.

Hence, 20 days was taken earlier as the duration of a war with Pakistan,

 

[Bhadra]

Defence of the Nation is not the sole prerogative of the Armed Force. It is also the task of the Govt, to which the Armed Forces are subordinate. The Armed Forces do not acquire the money to kit it. It is the Govt which does through the Budget. And to be fair to the Govt, it is not the Defence that alone has to have its organisation up to par. There is Education, Health, Agriculture, and the whole gamut of areas that catalyses the growth of a Nation. None can be ignored.
It is as per the Govt's perception, the pie from the Budget is given to the various Depts to include Defence.

Within the Budget allocated, the Depts including Defence has to prioritize the laundry list.

All agreed. However, what CAG report on ammunition has clearly come out that in spite of estimated budgetary provisions, OFB simply did not demand the budget at BE and RE stages to meet Army requirement simply because it was out of their capacity to meet the targets and no efforts were made to augment capacities. It is not just for nothing that Army surrenders large chunk of budget every year.

Would having WWR to scale when tanks and arty are lying unserviceable and would not be in a position to use the ammunition? Or to have the adequate numbers so that the ammunition comes to use? Ammunition alone cannot win wars. It is a machine ammunition mix that does. Thus, It is stupid and mischievous of Swami to state that WWR has been neglected.

That is just one example.

Sir , the WWR is worked out at unit holding and not unit authorisation. Hence equipment out of order or not sociable is taken care of in WWR.


Must read the report which is an eye opener.

 

[Ray]

Sir , the WWR is worked out at unit holding and not unit authorisation. Hence equipment out of order or not sociable is taken care of in WWR.


Must read the report which is an eye opener.

It cannot be on unit holding because if the unit authorisation is brought up to its status, then there will be a shortfall because the unit holding could have been low before it was made to full strength as per unit authorisation.

I have not understood - equipment out of order or not sociable is taken care of in WWR.

What I had said it is prioritisation. What is the use of a full kitty in WWR when you don't have equipment to match its utilisation?

That was to address the silly controversies raised.

 

[Bhadra]

Praveen Swamy is a different guy. This article is by Pravin Sawhney.

My sincere apologies to Parveen Swamy of earstwhile outlook and Surp Vinash fame who I have been cursing (though he equally deserves it as righty said that he has been working as paid journalist for agencies with deep pockets)

And the curse be on Parveen Sawhany who is equally prejudiced and jaundiced.

 

[Bhadra]

@Ray
. Provisioning of Ammunition items is

undertaken on the basis of Unit Entitlement (UEs) (if these are likely to be

made up during the provisioning period in question), otherwise on Unit

Holding (UHs) of weapons. The TI further states that once the net requirement

is worked out, the demands are to be placed by DGOS to cover the full

liability on DGOF, without taking into consideration the production capacity

of OFB or shortfall in supplies against previous demands



Say army overall has 3000 tanks but authorisatuion is 4500 but shortfall is not likely to be made up WWR will be worked out for 3000.

 

[Ray]

Were you an Ordnance officer?

I give way since you have quoted Manuals.

 

[Bhadra]

Were you an Ordnance officer?

I give way since you have quoted Manuals.

Ordinance officer ?
No...
I have interacted in this forum for so many years including with you and you call me Ordnance officer ! Something like I call you an ASC officer rather than a MAHARE Officer ! It will be an embarrassment for me to answer that question in the forum. However, when we meet sometimes, you will come to know.
Strange but look at my post, I requested you, sir, to read the eye opener CAG report.

I quoted every thing from there.

For me it was an education.