Something else made in China – Chinese GDP

stone1227

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Those Indians accuse China of cooking numbers, simply because they are too afraid to face reality, the reality that China's GDP is 4 times that of India. This excuse can bring a little comfort to their mind, and they make themselves believe it. haha

Those Chinese don't have to be angry. Just let those indians live in their dreams and it's no hurt to us. One day when they wake up, the hard truth will teach them a good lesson by itself.
 
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A.V.

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debate can be held without resorting to flames - facts and figures should be means to justify claims but then individual analysis and opinions also should find a place the best is member respect should not be lost while debating , if thats the case its unfortunate.

we expect the thread to have meaningful debates rather than a flame war with mine is bigger kind of attitude and contests
 

Armand2REP

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Since someone didnot believe data from IMF .CIA and world bank.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal))


Yes,Chinese are cooking books and IMF.world bank and CIA are also cooking books.

It make no sense to argue with.Just lock this thread,please!
What is in the phrase cooking books? Making it seem better than it is maybe. China says they have almost full employment and they do. Why? Because they make a job out of picking up cigarette butts on one street corner. Multiply that by every street corner in China and you get 10 million jobs. Mutliply that for every office tower floor add another 5 million. They make jobs anywhere else in the world that would be redundant with more tasks. It is just to give people something to do. Same goes for their local GDP figures, they want to meet a target... boom. That is what the numbers will say.
 

JustForLaughs

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What is in the phrase cooking books? Making it seem better than it is maybe. China says they have almost full employment and they do. Why? Because they make a job out of picking up cigarette butts on one street corner. Multiply that by every street corner in China and you get 10 million jobs. Mutliply that for every office tower floor add another 5 million. They make jobs anywhere else in the world that would be redundant with more tasks. It is just to give people something to do. Same goes for their local GDP figures, they want to meet a target... boom. That is what the numbers will say.
minimum wage is not a concept you have heard of before? you pay min wage for picking up cigarettes?
 

cir

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My 2 cents on the growth trajectory of China's GDP 2011-2025

2010: $6 trillion
2015: $12-14 trillion
2020: $24-26 trillion
2025: $45-50 trillion

Only time will tell if I am right or wrong.
 

badguy2000

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My 2 cents on the growth trajectory of China's GDP 2011-2025

2010: $6 trillion
2015: $12-14 trillion
2020: $24-26 trillion
2025: $45-50 trillion

Only time will tell if I am right or wrong.
you are wrong,
in 2010 ,CHina's GDP is 6 trillion USD.

In 2015, CHina's GDP will be about 10-12 trillion USD.

in 2020, US dollars won't be used to measure GDP at that time....it will be RMB that will be used to measue GDP.
 

cir

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I use US dollar for consistency and ease of comparison.

China's 2015 GDP is likely to be over $12 trillion becuase of:
(1) 8-9% real growth 2011-2015
(2) 3-4% CPI(5-7% GDP deflator) and
(3) 2-3% annual appreciation in RMB vs $ exchange rate.

15% annual growth will ensure that China's GDP excceds $12 trillion in 2015.
 

niharjhatn

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Meh..

China's working population is going to drop as more people go into retirement and less people enter it (1 child policy and gender imbalance).

China's ability to continue to provide cheap goods will be lost as labour prices increase.
 

warriorextreme

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i hate it when paks talk anything about our economy or anything good related to India..
when we make such threads about other countries economies we are doing the same thing as the paks do,isn't it?
instead of seeing Chinese economy down we should learn how they have worked all over these years to improve economy and achieve their current position..
please close this thread admins it will not help India at all.
 
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Armand2REP

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I use US dollar for consistency and ease of comparison.

China's 2015 GDP is likely to be over $12 trillion becuase of:
(1) 8-9% real growth 2011-2015
(2) 3-4% CPI(5-7% GDP deflator) and
(3) 2-3% annual appreciation in RMB vs $ exchange rate.

15% annual growth will ensure that China's GDP excceds $12 trillion in 2015.
1) Real growth, do you consider China's growth REAL? It is like nothing but construction and empty buildings here. You look out the window at night and only see half the lights on in some, and others almost dark. You come in by air and a tier 1 city (GZ) looks darker than a small US or European city. Most people are living off 600 RMB a month around here when my expenses are 6000 RMB, and I am trying to live cheap. I thought there would be big middle class but it is very little, you are either rich or poor.

2) As far as inflation, price rises every week. You know it is like 8-9% in the real terms.

3) RMB won't appreciate far... too many business to go out of order.
 

cir

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1) Real growth, do you consider China's growth REAL? It is like nothing but construction and empty buildings here. You look out the window at night and only see half the lights on in some, and others almost dark. You come in by air and a tier 1 city (GZ) looks darker than a small US or European city. Most people are living off 600 RMB a month around here when my expenses are 6000 RMB, and I am trying to live cheap. I thought there would be big middle class but it is very little, you are either rich or poor.

2) As far as inflation, price rises every week. You know it is like 8-9% in the real terms.

3) RMB won't appreciate far... too many business to go out of order.
So China's growth is not real, our remarks are real?

GZ dark as a small cell in the US of Asses or France? Get real:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=619404&page=13

Living off 600 RMB a month? Which dark corner do you hail from? Which century are you living in? 600 RMB a month? If you want to make up something, try at least be more creative.

RMB will appreciate 20-30% over the next couple of years before settling down on a more stable footing. China's productivity increase will be several times that of the US in the foreseeable future, implying massive appreciation for yuan against dollar. China is still on the starting block in so far as urbanization is concerned. China's service industry has hardly made an impact. China's infrastructure building is also far from completion, for China aims to make her each and every major province, such Liaoning, Shangdong, Jiangsu, Zhejiang, Fujian, Guangdong ect...a France, a Germany, Spain, the UK. Rest assured, my prediction regarding 2015 will not only be realized but surpassed. Of course, you can always live in denial and claim: all is not real. lol!

Let time be the judge. :happy_2:
 

JustForLaughs

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he must be a fan of gordan chang. the "expert" who predict China collapse for like a decade now. well, someone will always be talking nonsense.
 

Ray

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China will continue to function since it is a regulated nation and hence will be able to do course correction irrespective of the fallout in all its aspect, to include human misery, if it came to that.

As far as cooking books is concerned, Communist countries value statistics as an indicator and there is the tendency to cook, to show how good their governance is. It was also the case with the USSR.

Therefore, nothing is unusual for China to cook.

How China Cooks Its Books
It's an open secret that China has doctored its economic and financial statistics since the time of Mao. But could it all go south now?

In February, local Chinese Labor Ministry officials came to "help" with massive layoffs at an electronics factory in Guangdong province, China. The owner of the factory felt nervous having government officials there, but kept his mouth shut. Who was he to complain that the officials were breaking the law by interfering with the firings, he added. They were the law! And they ordered him to...
Foreign Policy
 
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Ray

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Why China Cooks The Books
(by Melinda Liu | Newsweek | April 1 Issue 2002)

The reputation of the People's Republic as an economic powerhouse is based in part on pure bunk

The People's Republic of China is awash in gaudy numbers. For much of its exceedingly long history (5,000 years), the country has held out the promise of the world's biggest market (now more than 1.2 billion consumers). Beijing posted the highest growth rate of any major economy last year-an estimated 7.3 percent, when much of the world was stumbling closer to zero. China is at once the recipient of the most foreign investment of any country in Asia (nearly $47 billion last year), the sponsor of the world 's biggest hydroelectric project (the $27 billion Three Gorges Dam) and the site of the world's highest railway, to Tibet (5,000 meters). The parade of gloating statistics would seem to portray a country that is larger than life-or at least larger and more illustrious than nations that must rely upon less quantifiable measures of worth, like, say, France.

Yet those figures are themselves hardly scientific. Historians trace China's current economic boom back to Deng Xiaoping's famous "southern journey" to the city of Shenzhen in July 1992. Perched atop a golf cart, the 87-year-old paramount leader exhorted local authorities to redouble their efforts to attract foreign capital and open up the economy. The comments led to nearly a decade of double-digit growth. Or did they? Many of the white-hot numbers emerging from the People's Republic in the 1980s and 1990s are now thought to have been cooked up by eager-to-please cadres. The pressure on Chinese officials intensified after the 1997 Asian financial crisis, when Beijing decided that the country had to grow by at least 7 percent a year in order to create enough jobs to forestall social unrest. Not surprisingly, reported growth rates have not dipped below that level since then. After Deng's trip, the numbers reported by provincial authorities became "an important criterion in evaluating local government officials' performance," says Wang Xiaolu of China's National Economic Research Institute. "This [has] created the incentive for statistical falsification."

Economists and professional China-watchers have long taken Chinese numbers with a grain of salt, and no one seems to have been terribly hurt by the puffed-up stats. But the massive labor protests that roiled the rust-belt cities of Daqing and Liaoyang recently provide stark warning of the dangers of relying on smoke and mirrors. Thousands of the laid-off workers who took to the streets don't even exist in China's jobless statistics: they are considered xiagang , laborers who are offered a tiny monthly stipend from their former companies and who are thus not counted as unemployed. Protests most often stem from the fact that even those meager benefits have vanished into thin air. And if GDP growth really is much slower than officially announced-some economists think China could have grown as little as 3 percent last year-then such demonstrations are sure to intensify.

Chinese aren't bad at math: they invented the abacus as early as the third century. But in China, numbers can often seem little more than rhetorical flourishes. (Recently Premier Zhu Rongji spoke without irony about whether his government had achieved its promise of "one 'must', three completions and five reforms".) Today an element of fakery has crept into several major statistics put out by Beijing. Even some Chinese economists agree that, in addition to the marquee growth figure, industrial output numbers have been inflated. The official jobless rate is seriously understated, as are the billions in nonperforming loans that are dragging down Chinese banks. Don't even try to pin down China's military budget. Officially it was $17 billion last year, but the actual figure could be up to five times larger.

The real problem is that numbers in China are often more of a political than a scientific tool. During the disastrous 1958-1960 Great Leap Forward, Mao Zedong's regime trumpeted huge gains in steel production-thanks to backyard steel furnaces that were in fact useless-even as millions of Chinese starved to death. Sensitive death or casualty figures-whether from the 1976 Tangshan earthquake, the 1989 Tiananmen crackdown or the current HIV/AIDS crisis-are inevitably low-ball numbers. The biggest obstacle to objective statistical reporting is the fact that "provinces have a [political] imperative to meet or exceed certain targets," says a Western diplomat in Beijing. "So guess what? They meet or exceed their targets." Earlier this month the Guangzhou Daily reported that a township official in Hunan province had fudged GDP and profit figures-and was promoted to chief of a county statistics bureau.

Since 1998 nearly all Chinese provincial authorities have over reported growth rates, leading to a situation in which the sum of the parts adds up to more than the whole. (In statistics unveiled before the Chinese Parliament this month, every province but Yunnan reported GDP growth rates that exceeded the national figure of 7.3 percent.) In January, Hong Kong brokerage house CLSA declared that "the data that show China as the fastest-growing economy in the world are not worth the paper they are written on"; the company refuses even to forecast China's 2002 and 2003 GDP growth. Thomas Rawski, a professor at the University of Pittsburgh, has conducted probably the most exhaustive review of Chinese GDP growth figures by comparing them against energy consumption, farm output, industrial production and other factors like floods and drought. He says China's economy may actually have shrunk -minus 2.2 and minus 2.5 percent, respectively-in 1998 and 1999.

On the other hand, unemployment figures are downplayed in order to mask the suffering caused by economic reforms and restructuring. The official jobless rate of 3.6 percent in 2001 does not include xiagang workers, who are estimated to have numbered 10 million last year. Nor does it include farmers who have left their fields to find work in the cities-a "floating population" of around 150 million migrants who are at least seasonally unemployed. Tsinghua University professor Hu Angang has researched the problem using definitions of joblessness more in line with international standards. He concludes that China's unemployment rate was 7.6 percent in rural areas and more than 8.5 percent in the cities last year-well above the breaking point at which Beijing claims social turmoil is inevitable. "We're facing a flood of laid-off workers," warns Hu.

An even more urgent time bomb may be hidden in China's debt numbers. Central bank governor Dai Xianglong confessed to Parliament this month that national domestic debt was much higher than the official numbers-16 percent of GDP in 2001-suggest. Dai said the figure was closer to 60 percent if unfunded state pension liabilities, local government debt and major banks' nonperforming loans were thrown in. Dai's unusual candor is the good news. The bad news is that independent economists say Dai's statistics are still based on China's yearbook GDP growth statistics. A more realistic figure is higher still-closer to 100 or even 125 percent, according to economist Rawski. The bad-loan numbers at state banks alone are terrifying. The Bank of China has reported two different figures for its nonperforming loans in 1999-one based on Chinese methodology, the second more closely in line with Western accounting standards. The latter is 2.6 times bigger than the former. (The books of China's "Big Four" banks have been called "meaningless" by Moody' s.)

Skeptics say that such discrepancies prove the glam image of China in the popular imagination is, in fact, a sham. In "The China Dream," author Joe Studwell warns investors about "opening a statistical Pandora's box" when they try to measure China's potential. He argues that Beijing's economic foundations have been "laid on sand and constructed from the kind of hubris that drove the Soviet Union in the 1950s." Gordon Chang goes one step further by predicting "the coming collapse of China" within a decade in a book of the same title; he believes the regime will soon be unable to finance the deficit spending that has propelled China's recent growth. These pessimists pooh-pooh the corporate hype that portrays Beijing as a gateway to a vast ocean of 1.2 billion avid consumers. (Actually, many children haven't been counted by census takers, so the actual population figure is closer to 1.3 billion.)

What those bleak scenarios fail to take into account, however, is just how messed up Chinese numbers really are. Statistics have been distorted not only by political diktat, but by a bewildering array of technical complications such as conflicting definitions, murky price indexes and shifting methodologies as the country transforms from a centrally planned economy to something more in line with the market. Funny numbers-some too high, some too low-are embedded higgledy-piggledy throughout the system. Sometimes inflated numbers in one area are partially canceled out by underestimated economic activity in another: Rawski, for instance, says that pre-1997 growth figures were too low because they did not take into account burgeoning growth in China's service sector. "Some numbers are relatively reasonable and others are totally implausible," says author Nicholas Lardy, who has written extensively about the Chinese economy and banking system. "It's unfair to paint every statistic with a black brush."

For instance, there are good political-and practical-reasons for underreporting growth. Zhejiang province on China's bustling eastern seaboard is believed to have shrunk its figures to underplay its fast-developing private sector. Other wealthy provinces-Guangdong has been named-have apparently reported low-ball figures to avoid some tax payments to the central government. Even Beijing's statisticians regularly deflate the economic performance figures reported by provincial governments in a process called yasuo shuifen , "squeezing out the water." Officials say the revisions-a murky procedure involving citizens' sample surveys, price-index adjustments and not a little guesswork-ensures that national figures are relatively accurate. Central government statisticians at the National Statistics Bureau (NSB) "are not the cause" of the unreliability of Chinese numbers, says Rawski. "Rather, I see them as among the prominent victims."

Part of the problem, in fact, is that even if Beijing were interested in accurate, thoroughly transparent statistics, authorities would not have the means of producing them. The NSB "lacks the capacity to collect data outside normal information channels," says Rawski. Like other centrally planned economies, Beijing has traditionally derived its figures from a reporting system and not from sample surveys, which are less subject to political influences. "Unless the system is changed," says economist Min Tang of the Asian Development Bank, "you will have systematic overreporting." Chinese officials are working with the International Monetary Fund and the ADB to set up universal standards for the collection of information. The ADB has provided $600,000 to help Chinese authorities develop a survey sampling system for economic indicators; a trial project is taking place in Jiangsu province.

To Beijing's credit, some of China's most suspect numbers have been exposed because central authorities have begun to push for greater transparency. Recently a senior NSB official told the Financial Times that an internal investigation during the second half of 2001 revealed at least 60,000 violations of Chinese statistics law. Some of the worst news out of Chinese banks is emerging as domestically listed banks begin to adhere to stricter accounting standards in their reports. "The new directive that financial institutions must use international accounting standards suggests that central authorities are getting religion-maybe a little late, but they're getting it," says Lardy. As reforms mandated by Beijing's accession to the World Trade Organization take hold and government protectionism diminishes, Chinese firms will have to focus more on being genuinely competitive-and less on faking numbers that hide all their red ink.

The other good news may be that China, at least so far, doesn't seem to be Enron. Despite the grim reality behind its rosy statistics, the People's Republic has yet to implode. Officials have been able to head off major labor unrest with a combination of payoffs and the threat of force. With savings rates above 40 percent, huge bank holdings of domestic savings and $223 billion in foreign-exchange reserves-all of which are thought to be reasonably accurate numbers-China's buying power remains impressive.

Yet Beijing cannot expect its bogus books to be accepted with a wink forever. From the 1997 Asian Flu to crises in Russia and Argentina to the Enron debacle, most of the world's recent spectacular economic collapses were made worse by inaccurate data. Masking giant China's many problems will only guarantee that its stumbles will be more painful than they need be.
Statistics
True or otherwise?

Worth a check!
 

badguy2000

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1) Real growth, do you consider China's growth REAL? It is like nothing but construction and empty buildings here. You look out the window at night and only see half the lights on in some, and others almost dark. You come in by air and a tier 1 city (GZ) looks darker than a small US or European city. Most people are living off 600 RMB a month around here when my expenses are 6000 RMB, and I am trying to live cheap. I thought there would be big middle class but it is very little, you are either rich or poor.

2) As far as inflation, price rises every week. You know it is like 8-9% in the real terms.

3) RMB won't appreciate far... too many business to go out of order.
in fact, even China is not real. the place which is tagged as "china" on maps in fact is is large desert where no humankind live.
 

Ray

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in fact, even China is not real. the place which is tagged as "china" on maps in fact is is large desert where no humankind live.
I am sorry, but I have not understood.

In all fairness, I fail to see the connection of Chinese deserts, and I know there are many such areas, has any connection with this:

Quote Originally Posted by Armand2REP View Post
1) Real growth, do you consider China's growth REAL? It is like nothing but construction and empty buildings here. You look out the window at night and only see half the lights on in some, and others almost dark. You come in by air and a tier 1 city (GZ) looks darker than a small US or European city. Most people are living off 600 RMB a month around here when my expenses are 6000 RMB, and I am trying to live cheap. I thought there would be big middle class but it is very little, you are either rich or poor.

2) As far as inflation, price rises every week. You know it is like 8-9% in the real terms.

3) RMB won't appreciate far... too many business to go out of order.
 

JustForLaughs

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inflation is only a problem now because Chinese use a peg. an increase in yuan is actually exactly what Chinese consumer want and foreign manufacture dont want. the only thing that is happening now is natural signal for Chinese government to let Yuan appreciate. its been artificially pegged low for way too long now. funny enough Chinese government keep stating they want to switch to domestic consumer demand. i predict CCP will do something to the Yuan to appreciate its value this year.

PS: anyone with basic stats background knows that GDP is not 100% accurate. no statistic is. but for China, all those with basic economics background knows any difference with the 100% accurate figure is due to being understated.
 

Ray

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If the Chinese appreciate their currency, then there market share will drop, as it would become costly for third world countries.

That is the aim of the western countries - to make the Chinese products near par in cost to theirs so that they can compete by flaunting better quality.

Thus, China which is emphasising on a economy that is sustained by volumes rather than quality in sales, will be the loser.
 

JustForLaughs

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If the Chinese appreciate their currency, then there market share will drop, as it would become costly for third world countries.

That is the aim of the western countries - to make the Chinese products near par in cost to theirs so that they can compete by flaunting better quality.

Thus, China which is emphasising on a economy that is sustained by volumes rather than quality in sales, will be the loser.
you are aware inflation basically means the products are less affordable anyway right?

China has been switching to a domestic demand economy for years now.

http://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk...tized-in-chinas-next-five-year-plan-3819.html

this isnt going to work if the Yuan is artificially pegged so low. we can see the effects even now Chinese are having issues buying simple things like vegetables.

as for so called Chinese products, majority of "made in China" exports are not even Chinese companies.


woops, wrong link.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-01/31/content_7530491.htm
 
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Ray

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Your link states:

Last year, disposable income for city dwellers jumped 17.2 percent to 13,786 yuan and earnings for rural households rose 15.4 percent to 4,140 yuan, according to official data.
It is all China increase in all cities?

What's the increase in the Villages, especially the one in the West of the coastal belt and in the mountainous areas?
 

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