Small arms of India

[soikot banerjee]

Above the two routes that are being pursured are 7.62*51 GLOBAL rifle and the INSAS MK.1C/Ghatak. Where is there room for the OFB 7.62*51?

In the Global tender or RFI, it has to compete with others, it's place isnot reserved for this section.

 

[Subham Show]

So in a way MCIWS aka AAR will kewp on hibernating till time unknown . Why is it not being considered ?

 

[WolfPack86]

https://www.facebook.com/pg/shatrujeet009/photos/?ref=page_internal

 

[darshan978]

BREAKING NEWS
•Trials of the indigenously developed assault rifle has made progress after the initial bottlenecks.
The sixth round was completed in November by the the Project Management Team.
•The army has sought for 50 rifles , out which it will select some rifles randomly for trials to check the consistency.
•There was a problem with the consistency of the rifle , while the army wanted 99% consistency , the rifle only has 98%.
• The initial requirements for the army is 1,85,000 (emergency purposes) and the other requirement will be met by a joint venture between private company and OFB
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamINDRA/photos/?ref=page_internal

Double post delete it...........

 

[Johny_Baba]

Mishaco,the blind gunner is giving his overview of Ishapore 2A1 rifle

 

[Pandeyji]

View attachment 22611

Right now the whole assault rifle procurement looks like this to me. Further suggestions are welcome. The Fast Track procurement gun seems to be fitting in the 7.62*51 area as it is meant for the immediate needs in the forward area. The Fast track procedure will surely go to the Punj-Lloyd JV, though I seriously doubt the level of tech transfer. The rest of the 7.62*51 Rifles seems to be in favour the OFB-Private JV as the regarding the Normal procurement DPP 2016 definitely gives upper priority to the IDDM project rather than buy and Make or Buy Category.

Honestly speaking if army is going to get a foreign rifle it should do so for all troops. This half-indian half-foreign is a logistical nightmare. If all troops have the same arms maintainence would be a lot easier.

Or it could be that the Galil is for special forces & regular soldiers & line infantry would carry OFB 7.62*51?

 

[Adioz]

Honestly speaking if army is going to get a foreign rifle it should do so for all troops. This half-indian half-foreign is a logistical nightmare. If all troops have the same arms maintainence would be a lot easier.

Or it could be that the Galil is for special forces & regular soldiers & line infantry would carry OFB 7.62*51?

For an Army our size, this is not a logistical nightmare. Rather, going for a single foreign rifle as a standard issue weapon is going to burn a big hole in our defence budget.

By your logic, why should we provide an LMG, Carbine and AR separately in a section when it is going to be logistical nightmare. Seriously, this logistical nightmare thinking should not be applied to every situation.

Logistical nightmare is having 3 different fighters of similar capabilities and weight class. That is cause the number of parts for an aircraft is >> number of parts for a rifle and at the same time number of aircraft in service is << number of rifles in service. When you have 450 infantry battalions and more combat support and rear echelon troops, you can easily have 3-4 rifles in service.

 

[FOXBAT ALOK]

I said so b/c the scheme I hear is like

• Foreign rifle for the Ghatak company
• Indigenous for rest

Besides your comparisons about rifle, lmg & smgs is disingenuous. They serve different purposes. My question is what is the point of having separate weapons of same callibre?

Bhai right now Ghatak Platoons using modified Ak & some limited no. Of tar-21 & M4

& our army is too much familiar with Ak than other weapons

 

[soikot banerjee]

Honestly speaking if army is going to get a foreign rifle it should do so for all troops. This half-indian half-foreign is a logistical nightmare. If all troops have the same arms maintainence would be a lot easier.

Or it could be that the Galil is for special forces & regular soldiers & line infantry would carry OFB 7.62*51?

What Logistical Nightmare you are talking about?
We already have it in place:
Travor
Insas AR
INSAS LMG
MP 9
AK Clones
GPMGs etc
All are being already taken care by OFB and now add to that Punj lloyd-IWI JV factory, we already have a system in place, The idea is INDIGENISATION.
Indeed INSAS had false shodddy image but it's teachings can't be let gone all at once.

IF IT HAPPENS YOUR WAY, THEN MAKE IN INDIA IS A UTTER FAILURE. THE PRESENT GOVERMENT WILL BE SEEN AS A HYPOCRITE which by looking the way of fabricating DPP 2016, seems they are taking Indeginisation very seriously.

If it happens otherwise that is your way, it is like reinventing the wheel what we are getting in name of make in India is Privatized version of OFB and nothing else!

 

[binayak95]

I said so b/c the scheme I hear is like

• Foreign rifle for the Ghatak company
• Indigenous for rest

Besides your comparisons about rifle, lmg & smgs is disingenuous. They serve different purposes. My question is what is the point of having separate weapons of same callibre?

The foreign rifle, its for the entire Infantry (eventually).

Having separate rifles of the same calibre is basically the difference in the quality of the weapon. The OFB 7.62NATO rifle may well become a superior weapon in due time. But now, a weapon like the Tavor 7 offers better accuracy, low recoil, rail systems for everything from sights, grenade launchers, foregrips, etc etc. It is also, lighter, low on maintenance and more ergonomic.

Things that I hope OFB will learn and put into practice!

 

[Pandeyji]

What Logistical Nightmare you are talking about?
We already have it in place:
Travor
Insas AR
INSAS LMG
MP 9
AK Clones
GPMGs etc

You are comparing different weapon systems. I am talking about weapons of same roles. Putting it simply there isn't anything wrong in having a rifle, a carbine, LMG, DMR in same company infact it is a must for properly carrying operations. But saying that one soldier should use INSAS 5.56 while other M16 5.56 is what I find wrong.

Infact different branches choosing different guns is fine too (I myself think that bullpups are best for SF)

IF IT HAPPENS YOUR WAY, THEN MAKE IN INDIA IS A UTTER FAILURE. THE PRESENT GOVERMENT WILL BE SEEN AS A HYPOCRITE which by looking the way of fabricating DPP 2016, seems they are taking Indeginisation very seriously.

If it happens otherwise that is your way, it is like reinventing the wheel what we are getting in name of make in India is Privatized version of OFB and nothing else!

Who said that a foreign designed rifle couldn't be made in India? I am saying that if it is 7.62*51 let all of them be the same gun, same goes for carbines, DMR's, LMG's and other systems. It doesn't matter where they are designed.
Edit:typos

 

[Adioz]

The foreign rifle, its for the entire Infantry (eventually).

Having separate rifles of the same calibre is basically the difference in the quality of the weapon. The OFB 7.62NATO rifle may well become a superior weapon in due time. But now, a weapon like the Tavor 7 offers better accuracy, low recoil, rail systems for everything from sights, grenade launchers, foregrips, etc etc. It is also, lighter, low on maintenance and more ergonomic.

Things that I hope OFB will learn and put into practice!

Not for the entire Infantry. Entire infantry needs 290500 rifles @ ~700 rifles per battalion for a total of 350 regular + 65 RR battalions. The current order is for 72000 rifles, i.e. 103 battalions. My guess is they are going to give these to all 65 RR battalions + the Infantry battalions in J&K and some other infantry battalions in the Strike Corps.

Do tell me if something is amiss in my calculations.

Wait, I did not even factor the Mech. Infantry in this. How many Mech. Infantry battlions we got? 27 or ~40?

 

[binayak95]

Not for the entire Infantry. Entire infantry needs 290500 rifles @ ~700 rifles per battalion for a total of 350 regular + 65 RR battalions. The current order is for 72000 rifles, i.e. 103 battalions. My guess is they are going to give these to all 65 RR battalions + the Infantry battalions in J&K and some other infantry battalions in the Strike Corps.

Do tell me if something is amiss in my calculations.

Wait, I did not even factor the Mech. Infantry in this. How many Mech. Infantry battlions we got? 27 or ~40?

I said eventually. Right now, I believe the rifles will be issued to those units posted along the border and in J&K.

Giving rifles chambered in 7.62 NATO to mech inf units will be stupid. As it is they are space constrained. They should be given Bullpups ideally, but in this country, let's just say, I'm not holding my breath.

And we have 27 Mech Inf battalions. I think.

 

[soikot banerjee]

Who said that a foreign designed rifle couldn't be made in India? I

This what I call as Desi Neta Baj attitude
There is a dejfference between IDDM, Buy Global, Buy Indian, Buy and Make Indian, Buy and Make Global , Make I and Make II
A mega tender for entire rifle going to foreign industry kills our own, that;s what US has been doing by imposing strict regimes on foreign rifle manufacturers and linient for their own same goes to China.
THE THEME IS TO BE IDDM, to ultimately bring all projects under either of the two IDDM or Make Category.
Your suggestion implies only license manufacturing, the thing which isn't designed here but manufactured here is license manufactured, if you have any little knowledge about manufacturing tech then you will know the importance of the word design if not then only you would undermine it as just design. DESIGN IS THE INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY, IT IS THE ROOT FOR THE SO CALLED "TRANSFER OF TECNOLOGY". When we ask TOT we ask the design and what everybody denies is the DESIGN. That is where real innovation lies and that is what ensures future of the industry,
As I said IDDM or Make is the target, License manufacturing is being done for last 50 years now and that is crap it didn't do any good then it won't do any good now.
The motto is not just the rifle but entire industry! and that can't be done untill the everything belongs to us from Design to Product.

 

[darshan978]

This what I call as Desi Neta Baj attitude
There is a dejfference between IDDM, Buy Global, Buy Indian, Buy and Make Indian, Buy and Make Global , Make I and Make II
A mega tender for entire rifle going to foreign industry kills our own, that;s what US has been doing by imposing strict regimes on foreign rifle manufacturers and linient for their own same goes to China.
THE THEME IS TO BE IDDM, to ultimately bring all projects under either of the two IDDM or Make Category.
Your suggestion implies only license manufacturing, the thing which isn't designed here but manufactured here is license manufactured, if you have any little knowledge about manufacturing tech then you will know the importance of the word design if not then only you would undermine it as just design. DESIGN IS THE INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY, IT IS THE ROOT FOR THE SO CALLED "TRANSFER OF TECNOLOGY". When we ask TOT we ask the design and what everybody denies is the DESIGN. That is where real innovation lies and that is what ensures future of the industry,
As I said IDDM or Make is the target, License manufacturing is being done for last 50 years now and that is crap it didn't do any good then it won't do any good now.
The motto is not just the rifle but entire industry! and that can't be done untill the everything belongs to us from Design to Product.

Plus we have to pay royalties to them if we licence foreign rifles

 

[Adioz]

I said eventually. Right now, I believe the rifles will be issued to those units posted along the border and in J&K.

Giving rifles chambered in 7.62 NATO to mech inf units will be stupid. As it is they are space constrained. They should be given Bullpups ideally, but in this country, let's just say, I'm not holding my breath.

And we have 27 Mech Inf battalions. I think.

Maybe that is what they are planning to do? Equip the 27 Mech infantry battalions and the 65 RR battalions with Tavors. Still, they are ordering rifles for ~11 more battalions. Which ones are these going to be? Could it be that the Para SF plan to upgrade to 7.62 Tavors as well?

Another question: Let us say we have an Artillery observation officer attached to an infantry battalion. Since he is from the Arty, he is going to be slinging INSAS 1C. How does that work out when he is the only guy with the rifle of a different caliber.

 

[Pandeyji]

This what I call as Desi Neta Baj attitude
There is a dejfference between IDDM, Buy Global, Buy Indian, Buy and Make Indian, Buy and Make Global , Make I and Make II
A mega tender for entire rifle going to foreign industry kills our own, that;s what US has been doing by imposing strict regimes on foreign rifle manufacturers and linient for their own same goes to China.
THE THEME IS TO BE IDDM, to ultimately bring all projects under either of the two IDDM or Make Category.
Your suggestion implies only license manufacturing, the thing which isn't designed here but manufactured here is license manufactured, if you have any little knowledge about manufacturing tech then you will know the importance of the word design if not then only you would undermine it as just design. DESIGN IS THE INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY, IT IS THE ROOT FOR THE SO CALLED "TRANSFER OF TECNOLOGY". When we ask TOT we ask the design and what everybody denies is the DESIGN. That is where real innovation lies and that is what ensures future of the industry,
As I said IDDM or Make is the target, License manufacturing is being done for last 50 years now and that is crap it didn't do any good then it won't do any good now.
The motto is not just the rifle but entire industry! and that can't be done untill the everything belongs to us from Design to Product.

The French are using HK416. It is not hurting their manufacturing. Many developed countries across the world use foreign rifles. But we seem to have it a point of ego.

We have to get of this stupid mentality. Whatever we adopt Indian or Foreign we should do it in full. We are not Ajay Devgan from Dilwale to ride 2 bikes at once.

Besides rifle technology isn't something that anybody refuses to sell. Hell Bofors gave us blueprints of Haubitz too (in the 80's). What makes you think that a foreign company would refuse to share rifle design now, when west is desperately trying to woo us to challenge China?

 

[armyofhind]

The French are using HK416

The French use HK416 only for their special forces and elite infantry. Rest of the French army is issued with FAMAS G2.

Something similar to what we have with the INSAS 1B1 and Tavor.

 

[darshan978]

The French are using HK416. It is not hurting their manufacturing. Many developed countries across the world use foreign rifles. But we seem to have it a point of ego.

We have to get of this stupid mentality. Whatever we adopt Indian or Foreign we should do it in full. We are not Ajay Devgan from Dilwale to ride 2 bikes at once.

Besides rifle technology isn't something that anybody refuses to sell. Hell Bofors gave us blueprints of Haubitz too (in the 80's). What makes you think that a foreign company would refuse to share rifle design now, when west is desperately trying to woo us to challenge China?

And why USA didnt give us blue prints of m777 then?

 

[Pandeyji]

The French use HK416 only for their special forces and elite infantry. Rest of the French army is issued with FAMAS G2.

https://sofrep.com/65812/hk416-new-rifle-french-armed-forces/

HK416F is going to be the new standard weapon and will replace the FAMAS which has been used since the 1970s.