Small arms of India

[Vorschlaghammer]

On the topic of "light" machine guns, who would like to try a belt fed 7.62 MP5 ? :biggrin2::biggrin2:

While trying it, why not fire a couple rounds from the rifle too ?

Perfect for all your full power cartridge conceal carry needs.
They're HK-51b and HK-51k BTW. Not made by HK, but aftermarket mods by an American company.

 

[Johny_Baba]

On the topic of "light" machine guns, who would like to try a belt fed 7.62 MP5 ? :biggrin2::biggrin2:

While trying it, why not fire a couple rounds from the rifle too ?

Perfect for all your full power cartridge conceal carry needs.
They're HK-51b and HK-51k BTW. Not made by HK, but aftermarket mods by an American company.

The first one is HK51B,an aftermarket belt fed carbine mod of H&K 21 belt fed LMG in 7.62 NATO.

Second one is what 'muricans call 'Pistol' (first one,without buttstock) or Short Barreled Rifle (second one,with H&K style adjustable buttstock),aftermarket mods of H&K G3.

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

The first one is HK51B,an aftermarket belt fed carbine mod of H&K 21 belt fed LMG in 7.62 NATO.

Second one is what 'muricans call 'Pistol' (first one,without buttstock) or Short Barreled Rifle (second one,with H&K style adjustable buttstock),aftermarket mods of H&K G3.

For working around the AWB I suppose.

 

[HarshBardhan]

Ghatak Rifles for Indo-Tibetan Border Police

 

[HarshBardhan]

Cornershot Weapon system developed by ARDE DRDO

 

[Vinod DX9]

Indian Army
Brugger & Thomet Mp9 9mm SMG with Zeiss RSA-S Sight , Suppressor & Flashlight

 

[Kchontha]

Brugger & Thomet Mp9 9mm SMG with Zeiss RSA-S Sight , Suppressor &

9mm is not so Effective These Days. This Should Be Replace By JVPC.

 

[darshan978]

9mm is not so Effective These Days. This Should Be Replace By JVPC.

Our army love white's product even if its obsolet but wont accept jvpc i hate this attitude

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

I have a rather wacky question to ask. Hypothetically let's say 10-15 years down the line, the situation in India is like 1930s Germany, in that it is clear that large scale total war conflicts are imminent, whether starting with us, or us getting sucked into it. In that situation, while INSAS/Some future rifle is being produced by OFB for the Army, what would be the best rifle to mass produce on the side for kind of "People's Militias" or "Partisans" ?

Options that I can think of.

1. Bolt action SMLE 2A1 Ishapore
2. AK Clones
3. SKS
4. FAL/SLR
5. SVT 40
6. Hakim/Ljungman
7. Garand/M14

I've mostly picked semi-auto battle rifles cause I think militia type outfits probably won't have Army level training for effectively utilizing automatic assault rifles, and since we're doing semi-auto anyway, why not use full power 7.62 NATO for longer range and higher muzzle energy. Perhaps OFB and/or large engineering establishments could churn out precision parts like finished barrels and/or bolts, or forged receiver blanks, and medium sized workshops can do other fabrications and final assembly.

I'm kinda leaning towards the Hakim/Ljungman cause direct gas impingement means no piston and simpler production. Other parts like box magazine and muzzle brake could probably be taken from 2A1 and SLR for commonality. On the other hand we already have tooling for SLR and possibly 2A1, so they may be easier.

@Johny_Baba @Kunal Biswas thoughts ?

 

[Immanuel]

Actually, anyone in the Army or paramil shouldn't be using any pistol caliber that doesn't begin with a .4. Ideally all Infantry, SF etc. should evolve to a .45 sidearm. FNX 45 or H&K USP are ideal, allowing for firing upto 15 or 13 of these rounds. These sidearms need to be used in close ranges of upto 50-70 meters anyways, in this range this caliber is ideal assuring 1 shot drops, most ballistic helmets can't stop this round either.

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

Actually, anyone in the Army or paramil shouldn't be using any pistol caliber that doesn't begin with a .4. Ideally all Infantry, SF etc. should evolve to a .45 sidearm. FNX 45 or H&K USP are ideal, allowing for firing upto 15 or 13 of these rounds. These sidearms need to be used in close ranges of upto 50-70 meters anyways, in this range this caliber is ideal assuring 1 shot drops, most ballistic helmets can't stop this round either.

.45 ACP is a bit dated and typically not flat shooting for military battle/engagement distance, but good for home defence, or across-street police shootout ranges cause the heavy bullet is guaranteed to knock down perps. Also standard subsonic .45 ACP loads are better suited for suppressing, which makes them desirable for SF operators.

On the other hand 9mm +P+ loads will readily penetrate barriers, but may be a bit hot for handguns. 10mm Auto retains more energy at 100m than .45 ACP has at the muzzle, but is recoil heavy, cause of which it was shortened to .40 S&W, where it somewhat lost it's wider edge against .45 ACP. Even .30 cal 7.62x25 Tokarev has excellent penetration of soft BP vests cause of it's small diameter and relatively high velocity.

On top of this the recent military trend of moving away from sub-machine guns towards PDW weapons chambered in high velocity small caliber spitzer rounds, meant to penetrate BP vests and plates have spawned "modern" rounds like 5.7x28 or 4.6x30.

IMO there is no universal solution to all needs, and the choice depends heavily on the user requirements. Relatively smaller but better equipped militaries like Bundeswehr or semi-militarized police forces like SWAT may go for PDW type shoulder weapons, and handguns like FN Five-Seven if they want, while other users may retain their sub-machine gun role.

 

[Immanuel]

True, but the sidearms should be used in very close ranges therefore dated as it is, still ideal for knockout power. Though 5.7 and 4.6 are nice, they are not wide spread ammo. SF can indeed go for the .45 while infantry and paramil can stick to 9mm.

 

[Johny_Baba]

I have a rather wacky question to ask. Hypothetically let's say 10-15 years down the line, the situation in India is like 1930s Germany, in that it is clear that large scale total war conflicts are imminent, whether starting with us, or us getting sucked into it. In that situation, while INSAS/Some future rifle is being produced by OFB for the Army, what would be the best rifle to mass produce on the side for kind of "People's Militias" or "Partisans" ?

Options that I can think of.

1. Bolt action SMLE 2A1 Ishapore
2. AK Clones
3. SKS
4. FAL/SLR
5. SVT 40
6. Hakim/Ljungman
7. Garand/M14

I've mostly picked semi-auto battle rifles cause I think militia type outfits probably won't have Army level training for effectively utilizing automatic assault rifles, and since we're doing semi-auto anyway, why not use full power 7.62 NATO for longer range and higher muzzle energy. Perhaps OFB and/or large engineering establishments could churn out precision parts like finished barrels and/or bolts, or forged receiver blanks, and medium sized workshops can do other fabrications and final assembly.

I'm kinda leaning towards the Hakim/Ljungman cause direct gas impingement means no piston and simpler production. Other parts like box magazine and muzzle brake could probably be taken from 2A1 and SLR for commonality. On the other hand we already have tooling for SLR and possibly 2A1, so they may be easier.

@Johny_Baba @Kunal Biswas thoughts ?

Ohk so your idea is to create a partisan/guerilla in India,and you are asking which weapons are good for such armed group.

My thinking is,proliferation plays a key role in such situation,so the weapons going to be deployed in such situation would have to be made in such calibers which could take already available ammo in mass amount + if they can take magazines commonly available in large amount then it's another jackpot.

Some ideas i've had in my mind is..

for Pistols,I think two rounds are good,9 x 19mm and 7.62 x 25mm
hence,my choices would be,
for 9 x 19mm,Browning Hi-Power and Colt 1911 (there are variants of this gun chambered in this round)
^Both these guns are quite simple in design and i think magazines won't be much issue as well,
for 7.62 x 25mm,Tokarev Pistol,of course
alternatively,a single platform for both calibers which could take already existing magazines.
My choice would be Tokarev,standard one and a special 'jugadu' one chambered in 9 x 19 which could take staggered-column browning hi power magazines
one example of 9 x 19mm Tokarev,Serbian Zastava M70AA http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/civilianproduct/m70aa
http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/civilianproduct/m70aa
for sub-machine guns,i would say,
Sten Gun/Sterling SMG for 9 x 19mm,
Uzi for both 9 x 19mm and 7.62 x 25mm (like this Uzi in 7.62 x 25mm )
^These open bolt guns are easy to manufacture (yes,including Uzi) and mags won't be much issue as well.

for assault rifles,
Kalashnikovs,no doubt,chambered in 7.62 x 39mm.Both rounds an magazines are easy to found
in 5.56 x 45mm,one could be made which could take INSAS magazines,after all,INSAS is a kalashnikov derivative herself.Maybe an Excalibur type gun for this one.

for full length rifles,
I say prefer to 7.62 x 51mm NATO guns,and my choice here is definitely FN FAL
Although heavy,but quite rugged and with scope it could also act as DMR,plus magazines are easy to find.

 

[Haldiram]

Ohk so your idea is to create a partisan/guerilla in India,and you are asking which weapons are good for such armed group.

My thinking is,proliferation plays a key role in such situation,so the weapons going to be deployed in such situation would have to be made in such calibers which could take already available ammo in mass amount + if they can take magazines commonly available in large amount then it's another jackpot.

Some ideas i've had in my mind is..

for Pistols,I think two rounds are good,9 x 19mm and 7.62 x 25mm
hence,my choices would be,
for 9 x 19mm,Browning Hi-Power and Colt 1911 (there are variants of this gun chambered in this round)
^Both these guns are quite simple in design and i think magazines won't be much issue as well,
for 7.62 x 25mm,Tokarev Pistol,of course
alternatively,a single platform for both calibers which could take already existing magazines.
My choice would be Tokarev,standard one and a special 'jugadu' one chambered in 9 x 19 which could take staggered-column browning hi power magazines
one example of 9 x 19mm Tokarev,Serbian Zastava M70AA http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/civilianproduct/m70aa
for sub-machine guns,i would say,
Sten Gun/Sterling SMG for 9 x 19mm,
Uzi for both 9 x 19mm and 7.62 x 25mm (like this Uzi in 7.62 x 25mm )
^These open bolt guns are easy to manufacture (yes,including Uzi) and mags won't be much issue as well.

for assault rifles,
Kalashnikovs,no doubt,chambered in 7.62 x 39mm.Both rounds an magazines are easy to found
in 5.56 x 45mm,one could be made which could take INSAS magazines,after all,INSAS is a kalashnikov derivative herself.Maybe an Excalibur type gun for this one.

for full length rifles,
I say prefer to 7.62 x 51mm NATO guns,and my choice here is definitely FN FAL
Although heavy,but quite rugged and with scope it could also act as DMR,plus magazines are easy to find.

If the situation in India deteriorates to that level, it will not be because of lack of weapons but because of Hindu mindset. What makes you think that Hindus would magically give up defeatism when they become a minority when they can't even employ their collective bargaining power to secure their interests?

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

Ohk so your idea is to create a partisan/guerilla in India,and you are asking which weapons are good for such armed group.

My thinking is,proliferation plays a key role in such situation,so the weapons going to be deployed in such situation would have to be made in such calibers which could take already available ammo in mass amount + if they can take magazines commonly available in large amount then it's another jackpot.

Some ideas i've had in my mind is..

for Pistols,I think two rounds are good,9 x 19mm and 7.62 x 25mm
hence,my choices would be,
for 9 x 19mm,Browning Hi-Power and Colt 1911 (there are variants of this gun chambered in this round)
^Both these guns are quite simple in design and i think magazines won't be much issue as well,
for 7.62 x 25mm,Tokarev Pistol,of course
alternatively,a single platform for both calibers which could take already existing magazines.
My choice would be Tokarev,standard one and a special 'jugadu' one chambered in 9 x 19 which could take staggered-column browning hi power magazines
one example of 9 x 19mm Tokarev,Serbian Zastava M70AA http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/civilianproduct/m70aa
for sub-machine guns,i would say,
Sten Gun/Sterling SMG for 9 x 19mm,
Uzi for both 9 x 19mm and 7.62 x 25mm (like this Uzi in 7.62 x 25mm )
^These open bolt guns are easy to manufacture (yes,including Uzi) and mags won't be much issue as well.

for assault rifles,
Kalashnikovs,no doubt,chambered in 7.62 x 39mm.Both rounds an magazines are easy to found
in 5.56 x 45mm,one could be made which could take INSAS magazines,after all,INSAS is a kalashnikov derivative herself.Maybe an Excalibur type gun for this one.

for full length rifles,
I say prefer to 7.62 x 51mm NATO guns,and my choice here is definitely FN FAL
Although heavy,but quite rugged and with scope it could also act as DMR,plus magazines are easy to find.

I should clarify, I'm not wondering about the politics, diplomacy, general mindset of the social fabric, or history of the situation, just a thought experiment of practical ways to enable society to defend itself when faced against odds, or push back and take the fight to the enemy.

Let's say you are the secretary of small arms acquisition of a fictional national war or defence council, and there are 3 possible scenarios,

1. There is a general feeling in the air that conflict is coming in the short term, diplomacy may delay it, but it'll happen eventually, and all indication point towards this being a total war of annihilation, with decisive outcomes. You need to make a contingency plan for the general populace.

2. After a limited Skirmish, the situation has just been escalated and is spiralling out of control. You have no other choice than to commit yourself fully into the mix, and there's no clear sign of victory, you need to have a plan for the people.

3. A war of attrition has been going on for quite some time and the armed force is slowly bleeding out. This can't go on forever and you may either need more militia recruits to join the fight or prepare for a indefinite defensive line-holding.

What would be the practical choices of small arms production in these scenarios ?

 

[Johny_Baba]

If the situation in India deteriorates to that level, it will not be because of lack of weapons but because of Hindu mindset. What makes you think that Hindus would magically give up defeatism when they become a minority when they can't even employ their collective bargaining power to secure their interests?

I think that debate needs another place,not this thread since it is focused on small arms and my reply was based only on that,although i agree with your POV.

I should clarify, I'm not wondering about the politics, diplomacy, general mindset of the social fabric, or history of the situation, just a thought experiment of practical ways to enable society to defend itself when faced against odds, or push back and take the fight to the enemy.

Let's say you are the secretary of small arms acquisition of a fictional national war or defence council, and there are 3 possible scenarios,

1. There is a general feeling in the air that conflict is coming in the short term, diplomacy may delay it, but it'll happen eventually, and all indication point towards this being a total war of annihilation, with decisive outcomes. You need to make a contingency plan for the general populace.

2. After a limited Skirmish, the situation has just been escalated and is spiralling out of control. You have no other choice than to commit yourself fully into the mix, and there's no clear sign of victory, you need to have a plan for the people.

3. A war of attrition has been going on for quite some time and the armed force is slowly bleeding out. This can't go on forever and you may either need more militia recruits to join the fight or prepare for a indefinite defensive line-holding.

What would be the practical choices of small arms production in these scenarios ?

Sorry,I am not that well versed in such scenarios,i just gave my honest opinion about some firearms i think could be useful for such Indian Partisans,that's all.

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

I think that debate needs another place,not this thread since it is focused on small arms and my reply was based only on that,although i agree with your POV.


I am not that well versed in such scenarios,i just gave my honest opinion about some firearms i think could be useful for such Indian Partisans,that's all.

Yeah now that I think about it, the factors I ignored are part of the equation. Everything from political goals, military objectives, degree of industrialization, marshal or pacifist nature of society all need to be accounted for. Forget I asked anything.

I wonder how someone accusing any kind of leadership of incompetence and raising storms in teacups would feel if they see the real big picture and faced with unknown and secret truths and facts.

 

[aditya g]

JVPC now seems to be a great weapon

In latest Patriot episode Major Gaurav Arya covers the B&T MP-9 ... explains that the weapon has been issued to SF as well as Ghataks - nothing we do not know in DFI already.

One can't help wondering if instead of the Uzi, MP-9, MP-5 and MX-9 - forces could have inducted the Amogh and JVPC with its superior round.

 

[soikot banerjee]

So no room at all for OFB 7.62*51 rifle in IA?

Who said so?
5.5 Lac are from OFB already.
As for rest 2.5 lac 7.62*51 it has to tie up with a private company and compete for the tender. Most probably it is them who will win. Most FANBOYS are actually complaining about recoil, in reality it is way more less than most of them, I have posted comparison in same thread, go and have a look few pages back.

 

[abingdonboy]

Who said so?
5.5 Lac are from OFB already.
As for rest 2.5 lac 7.62*51 it has to tie up with a private company and compete for the tender. Most probably it is them who will win. Most FANBOYS are actually complaining about recoil, in reality it is way more less than most of them, I have posted comparison in same thread, go and have a look few pages back.

Above the two routes that are being pursured are 7.62*51 GLOBAL rifle and the INSAS MK.1C/Ghatak. Where is there room for the OFB 7.62*51?