Singh's Japan stop was first step to shoring up regional security

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,594
Well, as a chinese, I must correct you.

We shouted to each other and we fight against each other. But that is what countries do, that is the business. Just like you have a competitor, you and him will do everthing to destroy the opposite's business except running into other's home: killing your father, rapping your mother. That is the difference between you and Japan: we don't like you, but we don't hate you.

Have a good day.
It's good to hear that you don't hate us, but don't like us either.

If only, and I repeat, if only PRC wasn't occupying Aksai Chin and Shaksgam Valley, that to me are Indian territories, liberal minded people like us would have found it easier to sell the idea of never ending Indo-Chinese friendship and cooperation, because we have so much in common. However, the belligerent actions of PRC, provocation along the LoC, clandestine help to Pakistan that threatens India, only make Indians assume a more radical attitude towards PRC.

Nehru tried but was shocked by 1962. Now the trust deficit will not go away in a long long time. Unfortunately, as I gather, your government doesn't care whatsoever.
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,594
well eventually they talk to us regarding nuclear deal, that is final.
Talks ending with an agreement to meet again is like a merry-go-round.

There is scepticism regarding the safety of their reactors, which may or may not be unfounded. The point is that Japan should not create hurdles for India's desire to get clearance from NSG for N-trade. Let them prove to be a friend and not simply a business partner. That really helps. Agreeing to talk again does not!

P.S.: Has anything concrete come out of the talks? I am not aware. If yes, kindly share.
 

thakur_ritesh

Ambassador
Joined
Feb 19, 2009
Messages
4,435
Likes
1,733
I recall saying, india needed to step out of G4, sometime last year, it was either when we won the requisite vote for the temporary seat at the UNSC or it was in oct prior to obama's visit. Even then the G4 had no relevance to us, but a burden which scaled down our chances, a deadwood at worst and it has no better utility even today.

India of all the four (G4) is the most well received in the UN, amongst its member states, india of all the four was the only one to have sailed through and made it to the UNSC with a thumping majority like we did last year and none of the other three can ever claim anything parallel and if I am not mistaken one of the G4 member even had a rejection (not sure who or when this happened, but it happened sometime back, the last decade), which speaks volumes of the goodwill G4 as a group did not enjoy, and there remained a stiff resistance to the entry of Germany as well, but still they managed to make it through after a lot of fire fight. Imagine here was a member state which couldn't even make it as a temp member and the other found it hard to make it through and here we are talking about permanent members where the opposition of the vested interests is bound to grow stronger many folds.

For india it is important to garner support from the P5, four have said a yes and are unlikely to retract because of historical reasons and new geopolitical compulsions, china gets left out and they will be brought in at some point in future by the powers that be which have interest in seeing india as a permanent member of UNSC. Over all India's biggest detractors back in the days were the western block, but their opposition due to new evolving geopolitics, economic hardships and realignment of world powers has forced them to shift their stands and it was this which made our support group swell from our traditional support base.

India needed to step out of G4, but before doing that, have a one on one with the other three that it is only by going alone that one of us has a better chance of making it through, and with india having the largest support of all the four, so they all should support india's candidature. Yes, easier said than done, would have required al lot of convincing on part of the diplomats and lot of mid night oils would have been burnt, but still it would have been worth a shot, we would have at least known the outcome of this and how well we could in future position ourselves.

Sitaram yechury has upset the applecart for us. If he claims what he claims is true, there was absolutely no need what so ever to go public about this, but put in a quite word to the PMO and other interest groups. Now if at any given time india decides to back out of the G4, the reason construed by our ever sensationalist media houses will be, we did it under the pressure of china, which will then be played out as a zero-sum game and which when highlighted internationally like that will have its share of repercussions for us in the new found support group and this I doubt would have for now poured water over any exit strategy from the G4, which is what should have been the need of the hour.

Cant these politicians think anything other than some silly point scoring, think in the larger interest of the country and act, can they? Fair enough left has a problem where they see anything that goes against china/Russia or is pro US/west and india is a part of that but playing it out like this is most definitely causing harm to our national interests. This skewed thinking these people have, needs to make way for the larger good of the country. They can in their la-la land of dream world think of some indo-sino alliance formation as they propagate but in the realms of real world that we are confronted with, such an alliance cant even be referred to as a distant dream. The only thing that comes to mind is, if you cant work in the interest of the country, at least do not work against the interest of the country.
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,594
Sitaram yechury has upset the applecart for us. If he claims what he claims is true, there was absolutely no need what so ever to go public about this, but put in a quite word to the PMO and other interest groups.
I second that. Yechuri should have informed PMO about whatever PRC told him, instead of making it public. He has every right to politically and ideologically oppose whosoever he wants, but when it comes to international politics, we all should act as one unit.

Hopefully the media will not blow this out of proportion.
 

S.A.T.A

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
2,569
Likes
1,560
The talks regarding reforms in the UNO and in particular the UNSC has been going around for more than two decades now,and until the last few years,it made little head way in terms of concrete progress.The only reason why the general assembly and the permanent members of the UNSC were forced to put the reform proposal on top of the UN agenda, was because this time around all the top contender decided to to make a united bid to get the process to takeoff,had the Africa union not played truant,they may even have pulled it off.

I think we seriously over estimate our diplomatic clout in the international level, to be able to successfully push the reform agenda on our own,the international goodwill we enjoy in many countries will not necessarily translate into diplomatic support on key international issues.How is India going to convince all the developing countries of the world that its serious about 'genuine reforms', if we stake a sole claim in the expanded UNSC,where is the reform in that.

Japan being a major international aid provider and donor ,esp in the developing world,carries a lot of political clout in countries of SE Asia,Africa and Latin America,we will need all their unstinting support to push our case in the general assembly.It cannot happen if the support gets divided,Japan may even trump India if it comes to a contest(we lost to Japan when we both last contested the UNSC)

The P5 will never support the reform in the UNSC for its merit alone,they would prefer perpetual status quo.Its the international pressure,brought about by the united efforts of the G4 which has brought them around to grudgingly support the process.They will make all efforts to scuttle it on the sly,efforts to divide the G4 is one among them.The G4 countries should continue to make united stand,by doing so they stand to profit,if divided they will fall.
 

amoy

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
5,982
Likes
1,849
The G4 countries should continue to make united stand,by doing so they stand to profit,if divided they will fall.
But there's a 'Uniting for Consensus ' group, headed by Italy, Argentina, Canada, Colombia and Pakistan, standing in the way of G4

G4, bundled together will go nowhere practically
 

nrj

Ambassador
Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Messages
9,658
Likes
3,911
Country flag
Coffee Club holds no leverage. UNSC expansion is inevitable. What worked 20years ago is not going to work now.
 
Last edited:

Yusuf

GUARDIAN
Super Mod
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
24,324
Likes
11,757
Country flag
But there's a 'Uniting for Consensus ' group, headed by Italy, Argentina, Canada, Colombia and Pakistan, standing in the way of G4

G4, bundled together will go nowhere practically
Wow what a powerful block that is!! Argentina ( the who? ah the football country messi maradona), Colombia ( yes the drugs country), Canada ( we are holier than thou).

Italy!!! One of the headaches of Europe dragging the euro down. PM is busy sleeping around.

And on to Pakistan. Ah won't say much. There are huge number of threads on that country.

Up against countries with a combined GDP of more than $10 trillion. Two powerful industrial states, two rising powers.

Still wondering where the consensus will lie?
 

roma

NRI in Europe
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Messages
3,582
Likes
2,538
Country flag
Well, as a chinese, I must correct you.
We shouted to each other and we fight against each other. But that is what countries do, that is the business. Just like you have a competitor, you and him will do everthing to destroy the opposite's business except running into other's home: killing your father, rapping your mother. That is the difference between you and Japan: we don't like you, but we don't hate you.
Have a good day.
yes you explained it well and i do agree with you on that ..... we needed to hear it from a chinese person as to how ( at least from that person's point of view,) the chinese might be considering japan these days....and i might add ( for all it's worth ) that even in our border dispute with china in 1962 there were some rules and codes of conduct which were followed by both nations .
thanks for the response
 

roma

NRI in Europe
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Messages
3,582
Likes
2,538
Country flag
It's good to hear that you don't hate us, but don't like us either.

If only, and I repeat, if only PRC wasn't occupying Aksai Chin and Shaksgam Valley, that to me are Indian territories, liberal minded people like us would have found it easier to sell the idea of never ending Indo-Chinese friendship and cooperation, because we have so much in common. However, the belligerent actions of PRC, provocation along the LoC, clandestine help to Pakistan that threatens India, only make Indians assume a more radical attitude towards PRC.

Nehru tried but was shocked by 1962. Now the trust deficit will not go away in a long long time. Unfortunately, as I gather, your government doesn't care whatsoever.
that idea about not hating nor liking is one person's opinion ...from the prc govt point of view they want the route through pak to the arabian sea and some of that involves cutting through indian territory not necessarily from a geographic but rather a strategic point of view - a n the goprc will do whatever it takes to get whatever they want , bhai -bhai or not,

the only answer ti prevent them cutting through india is a strong neclear capable missile deterrernt - a Tsar bomb would be better and most important a tryout - ie the willingness to press the button as the russians have indicated to goprc.
anything less will not win the respect and compliance of the goprc.
 

sanjay

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
459
Likes
186
Pak is least reliable route to Arabian sea, since it's full of fanatical gunmen, for whom kidnapping and ransoming is an age-old way of life. They are raiders, not traders.
 

The Messiah

Bow Before Me!
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
10,809
Likes
4,619
Listen, the British also colonized us and we don't threaten to exterminate them (in fact there's reverse colonization is kind of happening). We know there was an issue between you and them at that time. Japanese have a lot of problems and are not going to be a problem for you in any way. We've forgiven the British; it is time you forgive the Japanese too. The past is kind of unchangeable, isn't it?
I have not. In time they must be taught a lesson.
 

Tshering22

Sikkimese Saber
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2010
Messages
7,869
Likes
23,242
Country flag
I have not. In time they must be taught a lesson.
We're ruled by slaves of British imperialists right now. Even Brits themselves have been subdued due to their own devolving society and weakening economy to India, but the ruling government is still a hardcore slave to the imperial colonial mentality. Only difference is that at that time it was the white man doing this, now we have brownies doing the same in the same disguise.

With this government, even Maldives can threaten and conduct a war against India with a guaranteed non-retaliation policy from this government. If these turd pieces cannot even silence the Lankans for their aggression, forget fighting a war against PLA even if we get the Death Star weapons.
 

Virendra

Ambassador
Joined
Oct 16, 2010
Messages
4,697
Likes
3,041
Country flag
Pak is least reliable route to Arabian sea, since it's full of fanatical gunmen, for whom kidnapping and ransoming is an age-old way of life. They are raiders, not traders.
The Chinese still believe they can work their way out, based on the relations they have with Pakistan and the amount of money they'll throw in. My guess is, they think that it atleast good to have an alternative to fall back upon, in special circumstances.
Sounds like a long shot, but it'll serve them very well in case the shot falls accurate.
This is going OT .. sorry :p

Regards,
Virendra
 

niharjhatn

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
899
Likes
391
It's good to hear that you don't hate us, but don't like us either.

Now the trust deficit will not go away in a long long time. Unfortunately, as I gather, your government doesn't care whatsoever
Hmph, hardly any nation enjoys a complete, strong, solidarity with China, they have disputes with almost all their neighbours and then some. Their accomplices are only enemy-of-my-enemy type friends, and the chances the Chinese had at developing strong regional ties are gone.
 

roma

NRI in Europe
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Messages
3,582
Likes
2,538
Country flag
Pak is least reliable route to Arabian sea, since it's full of fanatical gunmen, for whom kidnapping and ransoming is an age-old way of life. They are raiders, not traders.
give prc-dragon half a chance - they will clear the way like a hot knife going through butter !
 

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
5,010
Likes
2,308
Country flag
It's good to hear that you don't hate us, but don't like us either.

If only, and I repeat, if only PRC wasn't occupying Aksai Chin and Shaksgam Valley, that to me are Indian territories, liberal minded people like us would have found it easier to sell the idea of never ending Indo-Chinese friendship and cooperation, because we have so much in common. However, the belligerent actions of PRC, provocation along the LoC, clandestine help to Pakistan that threatens India, only make Indians assume a more radical attitude towards PRC.

Nehru tried but was shocked by 1962. Now the trust deficit will not go away in a long long time. Unfortunately, as I gather, your government doesn't care whatsoever.
Well, I have a bad news for you:

There is no chinese gov would give Aksai Chin and Shaksgam Valley back, no matter it is called PRC, RPC or ROC. It is a political suicid for any chinese gov with such a decision because most of chinese would condemn it. The best solution is we settle our border on the current LOC: we both give the claim on each other's controlling areas.

But I think most of indians would say no to this.

Nehru tried? Yes, by his "forward policy", that is realy friendly attitude.
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,594
Well, I have a bad news for you:

There is no chinese gov would give Aksai Chin and Shaksgam Valley back, no matter it is called PRC, RPC or ROC. It is a political suicid for any chinese gov with such a decision because most of chinese would condemn it. The best solution is we settle our border on the current LOC: we both give the claim on each other's controlling areas.

But I think most of indians would say no to this.
I am very much aware of the positions of PRC as well as ROC. That is why I rebuffed some of the hardline comments earlier in this thread who were going gung-ho about creating an alliance with Japan, Vietnam, ROC and USA and similar BS without knowing the position of ROC w.r.t. the border dispute. PRC is any day better than ROC, but don't take heart, we are not happy with this occupation of Indian Territory.

Nehru tried? Yes, by his "forward policy", that is realy friendly attitude.
Nehru's policy, 'forward' or 'backward', was on Indian Territory, and at the maximum, on Tibetan Territory. That policy was not as much a mistake by Nehru as much was the Han Chinese invasion of Tibet and India's subsequent recognition of Tibet as a part of PRC, especially since Tibetans have no intention whatsoever to be a part of PRC.
 
Last edited:

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top