Should JnK map be redrawn within india?

[PredictablyMalicious]

There is no need to redraw the map. Article 370 must be erased and all Indians should have equal rights to buy property, open businesses and move in and out of J&K. Any group who opposes this uniform rights agenda should be dealt with full force. Their leaders arrested and put in prisons for Anti-India activities. There was no need to drag J&K problem for 60 years. Cowardice and fear has kept politicians from acting boldly in the past. Hope it will change soon.

Meh then the state will get swamped by people from Eastern, south, central indians owing to the relatively small local population in J&K. No one wants to see these people in J&K.

 

[Simple_Guy]

Forgotten identity of Ladakh

The Ladakhis emphasised historical links with the Dogras of Jammu rather than with the Kashmiri Muslims. Two sets of arguments were offered. Since Sheikh Abdullah's case rested upon the Treaty of Amritsar, the Maharaja's transfer of power was valid for Kashmir Valley alone, as Ladakh's relationship with the Dogras was governed by a separate treaty resulting from the War of 1834, 12 years before the Treaty of Amritsar came into force, in which the Valley did not figure.

Second, the arrangements which subjected the Ladakhis to the Dogras had ceased to be operative, like the Treaty of Amritsar, breaking the constitutional link tying the Ladakhis to the State of J&K, and they were morally and juridically free to choose their course, independent of the rest of the State.

Dogra conquest of Ladakh and victory over the Sino-Tibetan invaders led to the Treaty of Chushul in 1834.

 

[PredictablyMalicious]

Forgotten identity of Ladakh



Dogra conquest of Ladakh and victory over the Sino-Tibetan invaders led to the Treaty of Chushul in 1834.

Yep Dogras and Ladakhis get along well. Lots of Ladakhis study in Jammu and Ladakhi girls prefer to get married to dogra guys

 

[Singh]

@Simple_Guy

That article has some facts mixed up.

Treaty of Chusul was signed by Sikhs and Chinese in 1842.

 

[PredictablyMalicious]

@Simple_Guy

That article has some facts mixed up.

Treaty of Chusul was signed by Sikhs and Chinese in 1842.

Dogra Rajput not punjabis

 

[Pratap]

Meh then the state will get swamped by people from Eastern, south, central indians owing to the relatively small local population in J&K. No one wants to see these people in J&K.

In my view, article 370 should be removed only from Valley.

 

[Simple_Guy]

Treaty of Chushul says: "On this auspicious occasion, the second day of the month Asuj in the year 1899 we -- the officers of Lhasa, viz. firstly, Kalon Sukanwala, and secondly Bakshi Sapju, commander of the forces of the Empire of China, on the one hand, and Dewan Hari Chand and Wazir Ratnu, on behalf of Raja Gulab Singh, on the other -- agree together and swear before God that the friendship between Raja Gulab Singh and the Emperor of China and Lama Guru Sahib Lassawala will be kept and observed till eternity; for the traffic in shawl, pasham, and tea. We will observe our pledge to God, Gayatri, and Pasi. Wazir Mian Khusal Chu is witness."

 

[Singh]

@Simple_Guy

Sino-Sikh War

The Sino-Sikh War was fought between the Qing Empire and the Sikh Empire from May 1841 until August 1842. The war resulted in a partial Qing Empire victory and the signing of the Treaty of Chushul.

http://www.personal.psu.edu/users////d/x/dxa5053/QingWars.html

Sino-Sikh War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Simple_Guy]

It's obvious that the CHinese will underplay the Indian victory.

But there is no doubt that the Dogras defeated the Sino-Tibetan invaders.

Wikipedia is mostly junk, but even that second link admits that the battle was fought by the Dogras.

 

[Simple_Guy]

The Dogra campaigns in Ladakh and Tibet took place in 1841-42.

The Sikhs in that period were embroiled in the first Anglo-Afghan War, 1839-42, as allies of the British. So a "Sino-Sikh" war is mental mast@rbation at best!

 

[Ray]

In 1841, Zorawar Singh invaded western Tibet, possibly to gain control over the lucrative pashmina wool trade, though some scholars believe he wanted to build a land bridge between Ladakh and Nepal for a Sikh-Gorkha alliance against the British. Knowing that the Mayum Pass linked western Tibet to the rest of Tibet, he tried to capture it before winter set in.

Initially, things went well and the Dogra forces crossed Mansarovar Lake and reached Gartok. But the Tibetans resorted to guerrilla tactics and were supported by the Manchu Qing Empire which had taken control of Tibet from the early 18th century; it was secretly aided by the Nepal king. In a pitched battle, Zorawar Singh was beheaded and the invaders routed. The Qing forces chased the retreating Dogras to Ladakh, but were defeated at the Battle of Chushul (August 1842) and their general beheaded to avenge the death of Zorawar Singh.

The subsequent Treaty of Chushul called for status quo ante bellum, with no transgressions or interference in the other country's frontiers, as neither side wanted war. By this time the Sikhs were having problems with the British that resulted in the First Anglo-Sikh War, and the Chinese were caught in the First Opium War with the British East India Company. The Treaty was contracted between the Jammu & Kashmir ruler and Tibet, and a representative of the Manchu court was present.
On the defensive on too many occasions

 

[Singh]

In 1841, Zorawar Singh invaded western Tibet, possibly to gain control over the lucrative pashmina wool trade, though some scholars believe he wanted to build a land bridge between Ladakh and Nepal for a Sikh-Gorkha alliance against the British. Knowing that the Mayum Pass linked western Tibet to the rest of Tibet, he tried to capture it before winter set in.
On the defensive on too many occasions

@atheisthindu @Simple_Guy

Sikhs are not an ethnic group but a religious group. Dogra Rajputs are an ethnic group/caste.

Dogra forces were part of the Sikh Empire, and Gulab Singh himself was a soldier/officer in the Sikh army before he was made a vassal of the Lahore Durbar.

Please check what happened to Gulab Singh in 1844 and 1845 when he tried to act too independently.

 

[Pratap]

@atheisthindu @Simple_Guy

Sikhs are not an ethnic group but a religious group. Dogra Rajputs are an ethnic group/caste.

Dogra forces were part of the Sikh Empire, and Gulab Singh himself was a soldier/officer in the Sikh army before he was made a vassal of the Lahore Durbar.

Please check what happened to Gulab Singh in 1844 and 1845 when he tried to act too independently.

Whatever be the details, fact is India inherited Kashmir from Dogra king Hari Singh whereas "Sikh empire" had collapsed in 1849 completely and areas ruled by this are now part of Pakistan mostly.There have appeared numerous adventurers establishing their states, what matters is who consolidated and held his own against self destruction tendency of Indian polities at last.
Dogras won Ladakh for us and retained it for century which matters most. Who was whose tributary should interest us when we write an account of nature of polity.

 

[Pratap]

@atheisthindu @Simple_Guy

Sikhs are not an ethnic group but a religious group. Dogra Rajputs are an ethnic group/caste.

Dogra forces were part of the Sikh Empire, and Gulab Singh himself was a soldier/officer in the Sikh army before he was made a vassal of the Lahore Durbar.

Please check what happened to Gulab Singh in 1844 and 1845 when he tried to act too independently.

Whatever be the details, fact is India inherited Kashmir from Dogra king Hari Singh whereas "Sikh empire" had collapsed in 1849 completely and areas ruled by this are now part of Pakistan mostly.There have appeared numerous adventurers establishing their states, what matters is who consolidated and held his own against self destruction tendency of Indian polities at last.
Dogras won Ladakh for us and retained it for century which matters most. Who was whose tributary should interest us when we write an account of nature of polity.

 

[Singh]

India didn't inherit Kashmir from the Dogra King. Pakistan and India was carved by British based on Radcliffe line.

It was the Sikhs that for the first time in perhaps millenia rid North West India of Foreign/Islamic Rule. Sikhs not only conquered Afghanistan's summer capital Peshwar, but fought and defeated Kishtwaris, Ladakhis, Tibetans/Chinese, Dogras, Gorkhas, Multanis etc.

Ladakh was won in 1834. Maharaja Ranjit Singh had then stopped Gen Zorawar Singh from pressing on on that front as the Chinese emperor was much stronger. This meeting happened in in 1836. The flag that Zorawar Singh fought under was the Sikh flag btw.

However, after Maharaja Ranjit Singh's demise and after Gen Zorwar Singh had conquered most of regions that now constitute J&K, he decided to again try and expand the empire to Western Tibet. As mentioned in @Ray sir's post.

British had then sent Cunningham because they were afraid of the blowback to recall Zorawar Singh from his Tibetan campaign. Maharaja Sher Singh (of Lahore Durbar) acquiesced after being evasive for sometime. But before the message reached General Zorawar Singh to pull back he was killed in battle.

 

[Pratap]

India didn't inherit Kashmir from the Dogra King. Pakistan and India was carved by British based on Radcliffe line.

It was the Sikhs that for the first time in perhaps millenia rid North West India of Foreign/Islamic Rule. Sikhs not only conquered Afghanistan's summer capital Peshwar, but fought and defeated Kishtwaris, Ladakhis, Tibetans/Chinese, Dogras, Gorkhas, Multanis etc.

Ladakh was won in 1834. Maharaja Ranjit Singh had then stopped Gen Zorawar Singh from pressing on on that front as the Chinese emperor was much stronger. This meeting happened in in 1836. The flag that Zorawar Singh fought under was the Sikh flag btw.

However, after Maharaja Ranjit Singh's demise and after Gen Zorwar Singh had conquered most of regions that now constitute J&K, he decided to again try and expand the empire to Western Tibet. As mentioned in @Ray sir's post.

British had then sent Cunningham because they were afraid of the blowback to recall Zorawar Singh from his Tibetan campaign. Maharaja Sher Singh (of Lahore Durbar) acquiesced after being evasive for sometime. But before the message reached General Zorawar Singh to pull back he was killed in battle.

Nothing new. I said that there have been many adventurers but what has been result? Where is Peshawar today?
But for Dogras winning it and retaining it for century, Kashmir would have been another NWFP type state. The victory of Sikhs came too late and was too little, barring Jammu and Kashmir, 90 percent of their territorise are hotbed of Islamic jehad against India.
Hindu Marathas captured Peshawar earlier than Sikhs( who were militarily non entities till then) in 1758 and that to from Pune as their capital. Once big guys like Mughals were no more, all kinds of adventurers took advantage of situation. Winning some battles against a decadent Afghan tribal polity is not as great achievement as we are asked to believe as per our revisionist friends.

 

[Pratap]

India didn't inherit Kashmir from the Dogra King. Pakistan and India was carved by British based on Radcliffe line.

It did. When Indian Union was formed, Hari Singh hard pressed by Pak army, acceded to India. I do not know how Ranjit Singh comes into picture here.

 

[Singh]

@Pratap

Where is Kashmir today ? More than half of it with Pakistan and China. And the part that is with India is a hotbed of violence and fighting.

 

[Singh]

It did. When Indian Union was formed, Hari Singh hard pressed by Pak army, acceded to India. I do not know how Ranjit Singh comes into picture here.

So India didn't inherit it, Kashmir acceded to India. All that it has not been technically ratified and more than half the territories are with Pakistan and China.

 

[Pratap]

@Pratap

Where is Kashmir today ? More than half of it with Pakistan and China. And the part that is with India is a hotbed of violence and fighting.

That part is still better than Lahore capital of great empire.
Jammu is not hotbed of violence.