Should India get the V-22 Osprey?

[gambit]

Gents,

Any comparison between the tilt rotor and the helicopter with the characteristics of the helicopter being the standards is really unfair. What if the helicopter, or rotary wing design, is compared against the 'regular' aircrafts, or fixed wing design, with the fixed wing's characteristics as standards? The tilt rotor design is not new but its engineering has its own unique challenges just like how the rotary wing design has its own unique challenges. As the tilt rotor incorporate SOME of the best features of both worlds, it will also sacrifice via omission SOME other desirable features from both worlds. For example, to get long range, the V-22 must sacrifice autorotation. For the helo, to have hovering capability, it must sacrifice range and speed. Any attempt to take either design beyond its mechanical limitations will result in disaster. So to disqualify the V-22 just because it cannot autorotate while discarding its far longer range capability, something that even die hard helo pilots want, is being intellectually dishonest.

Will the tilt rotor do away the fixed wing? Who here sane agree? Did the rotary wing do away with the fixed wing like the early proponents believed? Laughable, right? So what make anyone come to the conclusion that if we have the tilt rotor we must do away with the helo? For immediate coastal waters, the helo will remain supreme for a very long time. Any fisherman in trouble? Then the tilt rotor is the answer. Since the V-22 is the bridge between the 'regular' aircrafts and the helos, we must exploit it best in situations where the other two either proved inadequate or even outright failed.

 

[gambit]

...it can land and take off vertically with one engine.

There is an interconnect shaft between the two engines.

So if one is no longer operational for any reason, the other has enough power to provide lift power to both props. So do not confuse the engine with the prop. The tilt rotor require BOTH props no matter what.

 

[gambit]

 

[Kunal Biswas]

This gives us some Idea of its need..

As far as V22 is concen Only few for SOF purpose can be brought in, May be a SOF V22 ?

 

[gambit]

 

[gambit]

The problems with it's engines as reported by Kunal are true - but it has to do with a basic scientific problem called Vortex Ring State -


It is from the wikipedia - so might not be very technically accurate - but you get the general idea.

Accurate enough. Vortex Ring State (VRS) is a condition unique to the helicopter because of gravity. Yes, gravity.

A rotor disk produces propulsion by 'sucking' air from one side of the disk, through the disk to the other side, then 'pushing' that mass of air away.

If the disk is positioned 'vertically', then we have the 'regular' fixed wings aircraft. Air is 'sucked' from the 'front' of the disk then 'pushed' away on the other side of the disk. If there is enough power, the 'regular' aircraft begins to move horizontally in the opposite direction of the 'pushed' air.

If the disk is positioned 'horizontally', then we have the helicopter or rotary wings aircraft. In this configuration, air is 'sucked' from the 'top' of the disk then 'pushed' on the 'bottom' of the disk. If there is enough power, the helo begins to move vertically or 'up' in the opposite direction of the 'pushed' air, which is 'down'.

The VRS condition is where the disk is moving in the same direction as the 'pushed' air, which for the 'regular' aircraft, it is not possible. For the helo, if we decrease power to the rotor disk, we will begin to descend and it is very possible that the aircraft's descent rate matches the downwash rate, thereby cancelling out any propulsive force. So in a sense, gravity is a factor in creating the VRS condition because if we decrease power, gravity pull us down towards the ground.

Once the helo's rotor disk is in the VRS condition, any increase in power will actually increases the descent rate. Keep in mind that a rotor blade is a finite structure. At the blade's tip, some of the downwash circles back up over the top and this quantity of moving air cancels or interferes with some (not all) of the disk's ability to create thrust. But once the rotor is already in a VRS condition, any increase in power create greater disturbances and will actually increases the aircraft's descent rate.

Helo pilots are trained of this condition and the recovery procedure is to tilt the disk, not increase power, and by tilting the disk, the aircraft gain forward speed and move into 'clean air' or air that is not in a VRS state. Then power can be safely increased again. The problem with this solution is that sometimes there is not enough altitude for this recovery procedure so helo pilots are trained in watching their descent rate to avoid creating this condition in the first place. The key to prevent the VRS condition is being aware of the descent rate versus forward motion ratio.

The V-22 seems to be less inclined to VRS than average Helo,...

What happened during the V-22's development was that the pilots came from the fixed wings community and had not the experience of the helo community so by sheer luck the VRS incidents were not that great because they were used to higher forward motion speed than helo pilots do. But once they became more familiar with how helos behave during landing, the VRS condition manifested itself several times.

...but if it does get into VRS, it is VERY difficult to come out of it (because of the twin prop-rotors). The USMC trains it's pilots to avoid VRS state and also to recover from it if it happens at all. That seems to have reduced the accidents by a factor of 10 ....

Difficult because he has to deal with two rotors in VRS condition. Then because of the two rotors configuration, uncommanded roll may result. The pilots found that the safest way to enter a quick and non-VRS inducing landing was to be more in a forward motion or 'glide' mode than a helo would.

 

[ace009]

Awesome gambit - very nice and very good. Thanks a lot. Where have you been of late? I miss your technical expertise ...
Thanks a lot.

 

[timmolntz]

V-22 is the nightmare for any pilot...i mean pilot is trained for either flying a heli or a plane but in V-22 he should know both...thats when problem starts...

bro...look at its size...its massive...a hit on its huge rotors will bring it down...u never use such an aircraft/heli for surgical strike although its ideal for 26/11 like situation...

I saw it fly at the CNE and I agree 100%. Its transition from forward flight to vertical is slow making it very vulnerable.That sound of the huge blades is not something you want to hear.
Forget about the quoted specs. Too many things to fail. If you feather the prop it will fall out of the sky(it cannot glide).

 

[ace009]

I don't know - the US Marines are kickass good at their job - probably the best large fighting force in the world. They swear by the V-22 and I think they would not do so unless it was kickass too.
I would like to see Indian Marines with a few V-22s ...

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I was out West recently and got to see the osprey and a Raptor fly. I will admit I was impressed by both.This is something India should definetly consider.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

We should only buy it if it can land on Seachin Glaciar, Leh or Ladakh high altitude airports on VTOL, other wise at 120million a pop you can get 5 helicopters for that same price and carry the same amount of people.

 

[ace009]

Come on GK - India has more places than Siachen galcier and Leh and more potential areas of conflict. Also, India should have strike capabilities, not only defensive capabilities, the V-22 should be used more for strike/ deep penetration of marines/ special forces than for defensive operations.

 

[Sancho]

@ Gambit

Correct me it I'm wrong, but the US carriers at the moment are still using C-2s for the long range cargo and transport role isn't it? Is there any replacement in planing and shouldn't the V22 fit in this role pretty well? Also there was a tanker and an ASW version planned initially, do you have any infos on these?
Imo the normal transport version could be modified with an removable internal fuel tank and refuelling pods, to offer even more fuel than the F18SH right?
I think the V22 is an aircraft that is only a good choice for special operations, like the mentioned carrier ops, or as an AWACS version, for STOBAR carriers, or LHDs. Same goes for the ASW version, for long range maritime patrols against a possible submarine threat, which should be interesting for India, or Japan. The special ops CV 22 of course is useful as well, but as an normal transport aircraft, that replaces older helicopters it is too costly to procure and operate, especially in high numbers. The speed advantage will be reduced by far when NG helicopters, with pusher rotors will be available, be it in the air force, or navy. For the mentioned special ops instead, where a higher ceilling is important, so why is USN showing so less interest? The cargo/transport and the tanker version should be good replacements, while IN could be interested in the AEW and ASW version too.

 

[gambit]

@ Gambit

Correct me it I'm wrong, but the US carriers at the moment are still using C-2s for the long range cargo and transport role isn't it? Is there any replacement in planing and shouldn't the V22 fit in this role pretty well? Also there was a tanker and an ASW version planned initially, do you have any infos on these?
Imo the normal transport version could be modified with an removable internal fuel tank and refuelling pods, to offer even more fuel than the F18SH right?
I think the V22 is an aircraft that is only a good choice for special operations, like the mentioned carrier ops, or as an AWACS version, for STOBAR carriers, or LHDs. Same goes for the ASW version, for long range maritime patrols against a possible submarine threat, which should be interesting for India, or Japan. The special ops CV 22 of course is useful as well, but as an normal transport aircraft, that replaces older helicopters it is too costly to procure and operate, especially in high numbers. The speed advantage will be reduced by far when NG helicopters, with pusher rotors will be available, be it in the air force, or navy. For the mentioned special ops instead, where a higher ceilling is important, so why is USN showing so less interest? The cargo/transport and the tanker version should be good replacements, while IN could be interested in the AEW and ASW version too.

I think it is too early to tell if the USN will have any other roles for the V-22. Contrary to what many may believe, the US military is quite a conservative bunch and resistance to the V-22 is a symptom of that. Another factor to consider is the training for the pilots. Keep in mind that the V-22 has two modes of flight: helo and 'normal'. A helo pilot would have to adapt to some loss, notably no autorotation, and engines to his sides. A 'normal' pilot will have to learn how to hover. I think the V-22 would not replace the longer distance C-2 but would replace the helo in the ASW role. Its flexibility is too obvious here.

As for the push rotors, I would not count on that technology just yet. Odd as it may sound, aviation is where the US military is more than willing to let the civilian sector take the lead.

 

[nrj]

Lets look at flight cost of V22. At modest its going to be 9000$ per hour or as high as 12000$.

 

[Drsomnath999]

I think India should buy some of the V-22 Osprey if the USA agrees to their sale.
These birds are awesome and will add a lot of lift/ transport and expeditionary strike capability to India.

Bell-Boeing V-22 Osprey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I would like to know what the members have to say.

then why dont u start a thread should india buy B2 bomber from USA ,it is stealthy & has awesome firepower

 

[ace009]

I think you are seriously coked up ...

B2 bomber? "Awesome firepower"? You know what you are talking about or just farting on the forums?

Stop trolling and get into rehab dude ...

 

[Drsomnath999]

Stop trolling and get into rehab dude ...

well i am tasting u the taste of ur own medicine ,& i think u understood now what is the taste of ur own medicine that u give to other members of this forum

BTW u are doubting on B2 bomber's awesome firepower capabiltiy,that even an illiterate villager knows about's it's awesome fire capabilty ,well perhaps ur ego has blinded u so much that u cant even differentiate what is right & what is wrong .

 

[ace009]

Do you even know what "firepower" means? It means direct application of force. Firepower was originally meant for guns and cannons, later artillery, tanks, rockets and missiles were included. Bombs are and never were included in the definition of "firepoer" because you "drop" a bomb, not fire it.
A B2 Spirit is a bomber - it "drops" bombs - does not fire. AS of yet it cannot fire a missile - although in the future it might happen.
So, by any definition - a B2 does not have "firepower". Comprende?

As for trolling - go back and read my post, I did not "troll" - I asked the mods to lock or merge the threads. That is a compliment.
What you are doing is trolling like a stupid jerk.

@ MODS - take notice.

 

[Patriot]

Bell Boeing to brief India on V-22 Osprey

Minister of State for Defense, Mallipudi Mangapati Pallam Raju, accompanied by the deputy chief of the Indian Navy, Vice Admiral Satish Soni, asked the Bell Boeing V-22 Tiltrotor Team for a briefing on the aircraft.
he US Bell Boeing collaboration on the V-22 Osprey tilt-rotor is to brief India on the aircraft sometime early next year. In a meeting held at the Dubai Air Show last month, Minister of State for Defense, Mallipudi Mangapati Pallam Raju, accompanied by the deputy chief of the Indian Navy, Vice Admiral Satish Soni, asked for a briefing on the aircraft.

Bob Carrese, Executive Director of V-22 Business Development of the Bell Boeing Tiltrotor Team spoke to StratPost at the show, saying, "We did have an Indian delegation that came by, the minister – we briefed him on this. We've been invited to give another brief to the staff – the naval staff." Carrese says Admiral Soni was the 'gentleman who actually requested the brief on the airborne early warning platform on the V-22"². "V-22 as an AEW (Airborne Early Warning) platform," he said.

This is not the first time the navy has been briefed on the aircraft, but as India moves to firm up designs of the two aircraft carriers it is building at Cochin Shipyard, the navy's plans for aircraft acquisitions to fully equip the carrier groups with onboard and complementary land-based platforms, replace aging platforms and move towards all-round aerial capabilities, are also due to be set in stone. Carrese says they've briefed India on the platform earlier and will make an updated presentation again, 'probably at the beginning of next year'.

"We've made presentations at a number of Heli Power conferences and also presented to the air force chief of staff – responded to a navy RFI (Request for Information) for land-based and ship-based search and rescue platforms," he says, adding, "We keep refreshing our briefs at the Heli Power. We continuously get inquiries – usually about our ability to reach islands that are well off the coast and (airlift) a rapid reaction force."

The Indian Navy currently operates a fleet of helicopters and land-based surveillance and transport aircraft that include Dorniers, IL-38s and Tu-142s, besides other, smaller aircraft. Many of these are coming to the end of their life. The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has also noted the age of the navy's rotary assets. The navy has, so far, ordered eight Boeing P-8I Long Range Maritime Reconnaissance (LRMR) aircraft, with an expected follow on order of four, and also plans to shop around for Medium Range Maritime Reconnaissance (MRMR) aircraft.

Carrese says his team has 'done some early work on airborne early warning systems'. "There're a number of different radars that could be mounted on the aircraft," he says, adding, "This is not the first time that we've been asked to present some kind of application in that regard."

The aircraft is already replacing a number of types in the US Marine Corps and the US Air Force. In the US Air Force, alone, 50 Ospreys will replace around a 100 aircraft, both rotary as well as fixed wing. The Marines, too, are planning to replace their CH-46 Sea Knight medium-lift tandem rotor and the earlier model CH-53 aircraft with the Osprey. The US Navy has also been considering the aircraft as a replacement for their C-2 Carrier Onboard Delivery aircraft. But so far, there hasn't been any move to configure the V-22 for the AEW role.

Since both, the INS Vikramaditya (Admiral Gorshkov) as well as the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier, are STOBAR (Short Take Off But Arrested Recovery), a vertical lift or short take off aircraft would appear to suit an Indian requirement for a carrier-borne AEW platform.

Jean Chamberlain, Vice President, General Manager of Boeing Mobility, says the Osprey is designed for requirements that include shipboard operations, pointing out that its automatic blade fold and wing stow in 90 seconds can reduce its footprint on the ship deck.

John Garrison, President and CEO of Bell Helicopter, points out that the vertical take-off and landing capability allows delivery of critical supplies to any aviation ship, 'not just big deck carriers'. Colonel Greg Masiello, US Marine Corps, the Joint Program Manager for V-22 at NAVAIR PMA-275, agrees. "It can go to a spectrum of ships. It doesn't have to go just to an aircraft carrier," he says, adding, "It works on our amphibious carriers now – they can do a short take off and landing," or 'operate 'from a helipad'.

Marine V-22 pilot, Major Benjamin Debardeleben, who used to fly the CH-46 Sea Knight tandem rotor helicopter, says, "It really provides you more flexibility than I had before because I can taxi on the deck myself, so I don't have to get towed around. I can also do a short take off from the front – I can do a running take off and take off with a much heavier weight." The nacelles on the aircraft rotate 96 degrees backwards, allowing the pilot to reverse the aircraft, as well.

He says, "Most helicopters fly a little under 2 miles a minutes anything about a 120, 100 knots – we fly around 240/260 – its 4 miles a minute. And that's what shrinks the battlespace."

"I flew the CH-46 before. And it was a helicopter that did about 110 knots. And with that, the ship was always very close to the shore. And so we had to deal with very short legs. And with the Osprey we're able to be much further away from the shore or operate in two locations and be able to conduct the mission instead of being just focused on one location," says the Marine, adding, "You need less bases, you can reach farther with the same aircraft."

The Osprey could be configured for a variety of other roles, as well. Garrison points out, "As an aerial and ground refueler, the Osprey can serve not only as aerial refueler for helicopters and fixed wing aircraft, it can also land and quickly deliver fuel to ground vehicles." He thinks the 'aircraft can easily be modified to serve as an excellent intelligence and surveillance and reconnaissance and command and control platform'.

"So if you had an ISR platform we could roll that capability on it – launch of a navy ship or land-based over pretty long distances. This aircraft can fly up to 25,000 feet, so you get range well beyond – you get the speed – lot of coverage there," explains Masiello.

Garrison also cites rescue and medevac as obvious applications for the aircraft, something that has been demonstrated during Operation Odyssey Dawn in Libya, as well as in Afghanistan. ..............................................................................