Should India Buy the Mistral Which Russia Couldn't?

[Zebra]

NO!!!
We are already aiming for a tender for in house production. Buying off the shelf reduces orders and puts the need for setting up a production line in a limbo. Lets stick with the RFP.

And they are looking for 40000 ton amphibious ship.

 

[rohit.gr77]

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...fficulty-france-find-mistral-buyers/31222787/

Hollande: 'No Difficulty' For France To Find Mistral Buyers

Agence France-Presse, 3:59 p.m. EDT August 6, 2015

Since, Russians have been reimbursed and the matter has been closed from their side. I don't think there should be any problem in India buying those ships. The Navy is anyways looking for new LPD/LHDs.
Also can the F -35 be operated from these ships in future?

 

[The enlightened]

And they are looking for 40000 ton amphibious ship.

I don't understand how they can classify them as LPD? Plus why the need for a tender, as there is only one ship that can match that specs - Wasp Class.

 

[Zebra]

Since, Russians have been reimbursed and the matter has been closed from their side. I don't think there should be any problem in India buying those ships. The Navy is anyways looking for new LPD/LHDs.
Also can the F -35 be operated from these ships in future?

I don't think so.
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[blue marlin]

buy such ship will grain your resources. if you really want it give it time and the french will reduce the price. its costing them 1 million euro a month to maintain each ship. i cant see why you'll need them

 

[Zebra]

Since, Russians have been reimbursed and the matter has been closed from their side. I don't think there should be any problem in India buying those ships. The Navy is anyways looking for new LPD/LHDs.
Also can the F -35 be operated from these ships in future?

Please watch this video at 5:10......

 

[rohit.gr77]

Please watch this video at 5:10......

Thanks:biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2:

 

[Screambowl]

No need.

It will end up in 300 rounds of discussion. better to build at home.

 

[Zebra]

No need.

It will end up in 300 rounds of discussion. better to build at home.

good one sir. :biggrin2:
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[sorcerer]

Tell us about your response to the Indian Navy RFP (Request For Proposal) for four LPD (Landing Platform Dock) vessels.

We have offered the Mistral-class. But because of the very specific requirements of the Indian Navy we have been obliged to propose significant changes to the Mistral-class design – original design.

And initially, very frankly, we thought that the best value for money for India would be to acquire the Mistral as it is – maybe with some modifications,:bs: as we did for the Russians, for instance. But it appears that they wanted to have very big modifications in order to comply with the depth and standard which are applicable to this particular ship.


Graphic: DCNS

And for instance, they did not accept the engines which normally equip the Mistral family which are essentially the (azimuth thrusters) – they are installed on pods – they wanted to have normal normal shaft lines – maybe it doesn’t speak to you, but it means that since, now the well dock, which is the main part of the Mistral cannot be realized in th same way because of the shaft lines – two shaft lines, at least – we have to redesign the whole aft-section of the ship.

So most of it is going to be more or less similar to the Mistral and same from the outside. You will still see it – more or less similar.

But indeed, the modifications are really, really significant and we have some doubts, very frankly, about the real value for money. But once again, those are the requirements of the Indian Navy – let’s abide by that, let’s try to meet all those requirements and maybe later in the process of negotiations we might end up in convincing the Indian Navy that they might do significant savings by going for the more off-the-shelf solution.

Why is the Indian Navy circumspect about the existing engine pods?

It works (existing azimuth thruster propulsion) but certain navies think that the pods are very – well, first of all have not been designed with all the military requirements taken into account. Secondly, that they are more difficult to maintain over time, which is not at all our view – quite the contrary. It’s a perception issue.

I can tell you that all the countries in which we have marketed the Mistral – all countries have accepted the pod approach without any problems – even the Russians.

So we were very much surprised when the Indian Navy said, “No, no, no, no – this is not what we want. You have to follow exactly the requirements that we have expressed in our RFP, otherwise you might be eliminated right away,” and we said, “Okay, okay – don’t frighten us with elimination. If this is what you want we can certainly do it.” It’s not a technical issue, it’s only a question of value for money.

This is one of the things – there are other things, which have led us to study all those changes but, once again, this is not at all a big deal. This is a very flexible ship, not only in terms of the capacity and military operations or whatever, but even in terms of design.

We have conducted, for instance, a number of changes for the Russians who wanted ship capable of moving in Arctic seas. For instance, in the Russian version, the deck can be heated, which is not a requirement in India. They also wanted to change the height of the lower decks in order to accommodate ‘higher’ helicopters, so all of this can be very easily done. This is not an issue.

How difficult is it to modify the original design?

Modular design and modular construction. This is the reason why it was for us relatively easy to design those modifications. As a matter of fact we did the job in less than four months (for the modifications of the response to the Indian Navy RFP). So we see that as a real advantage of our design. Now obviously the other advantage that we have is that this ship amply proven at sea.

And for the Indian Navy we have proposed a basic design, as we normally do in a proposal – concept design – but we will have to – if we happen to be selected at the end of the day, we will have to do the detailed design and that will take some more time.



But the other thing, also, which we believe is an advantage is – and this is something that has not been matched by any other competitor – is the time needed to build such a ship. This is a big ship – between 22 and 26,000 tons – only an aircraft carrier would be bigger than this – and that ship has been built for he Russians in 32 months. For the French Navy – same thing and therefore we have now a track record which demonstrates that we can build it quickly.

Now, obviously, in India – it will have to be built in India, so we have to transfer the technology. But this is what we did, for instance, for the Russians and they have been capable to follow the same.

How confident are you about your partnership with Pipavav in bidding for this RFP?

We have developed those changes to make a good proposal in association with our partner Pipavav – maybe tomorrow, Reliance Defence – we don’t know.

To us, very frankly, this was a fantastic news because we were very anxious about the future of Pipavav. And up to the point where, because of the situation of Pipavav and the situation of the ABG at the same time we were about to have the Indian Navy canceling the RFP by saying ‘Okay guys – let’s redo the whole thing because now we have only one solid proposal on the table’ – which is the one of L&T – Larsen and Toubro.

There are three contenders, basically, each of one with one occidental partner – ABG with Alion Technologies from the US, L&T with Navantia of Spain and we are with Pipavav.

In any case, we built most of the ship in France for the Russians but in India have known right from the beginning that the whole thing would be built in India. So this is not something which is a problem for us. Pipavav has a very large capacity – very large dry dock – probably the biggest in India and therefore they are an ideal partner for building that type of ship, so we’re very confident. And now we will also to find a a suitable partner to build, integrate and install the combat system that will equip the ship.

Not (identified) yet. There are many, many contenders for this type of thing – it’s not a very complex ship in terms of military capacity. So BEL might do it, Tata might do it. And here again, we will be very flexible and we will listen to the Indian Navy – have always their way of thinking about their partners, their privileged partners and this not a domain in which there should be any difficulty to accommodate any partner of their choice.

For sale: two French warships with a negotiable price

....

But according to analysts, that may not be so simple. The government needs a buyer who will want two foreign-built warships at short notice and at a price not too far below the Russian one.

The problem is that of the 13 countries in the world that have stated a need for this grade of ship over the next decade, only India and Turkey want delivery in the next few years, according to an analysis by IHS Jane’s.

And in both countries there is a political lobby demanding that the ships be built locally, not imported. India, the world’s biggest importer of military ships, for example, this year said that all military ships would now be assembled locally.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1cace11e-3c37-11e5-bbd1-b37bc06f590c.html#axzz3i87zfu1Z

...
...


This takes into account the €1.2bn returned to Russia and what Mr Mariani says is €200 to €300m for what he called the “derussification” of the ship, meaning the removal of customised equipment that had been installed on board.

The removal job is set to be carried out by a Russian team in September, according to a Russian news agency. The French government said that it would inform parliament in due course about the exact cost
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1cace11e-3c37-11e5-bbd1-b37bc06f590c.html#axzz3i87zfu1Z

 

[tarunraju]

I don't think so.
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He's probably referring to VTOLs.

 

[rohit.gr77]

He's probably referring to VTOLs.

Yes, I was referring to the VTOL F-35B. But today only I read somewhere that the Mistral isn't big enough to accommodate F-35B.

 

[Zebra]

He's probably referring to VTOLs.

Yes, I was referring to the VTOL F-35B. But today only I read somewhere that the Mistral isn't big enough to accommodate F-35B.

https://www.f35.com/about/variants ......

The F-35 family includes three variants – all single-seat jets: the F-35A conventional takeoff and landing (CTOL) variant, the F-35B short takeoff/vertical landing (STOVL) variant, and the F-35C carrier variant (CV).

 

[pmaitra]

Russia will be reimbursed, but our decision should not be influenced by any motivation of making it easy for the French to reimburse the Russians. Russia has a watertight agreement with France. France has no choice but to reimburse.

 

[Zebra]

tarunraju , rohit.gr77

First F-35B Vertical Takeoff Test....


Published on May 20, 2013, by LockheedMartinVideos

"An F-35B test aircraft completes its first-ever vertical takeoff (VTO) at NAS Patuxent River, Md., on May 10, 2013. While not a capability used in combat, VTOs are required for repositioning of the STOVL in environments where a jet could not perform a short takeoff. In these cases, the jet, with a limited amount of fuel, would execute a VTO to travel a short distance."

 

[pmaitra]

@Scalieback, in a different thread, says, "I'm not sure of India's need or desire for LPH's and to be honest, I know they were designed for Russian kit, but do you use Russian comms kit for example?"

I think I agree with him.

 

[bengalraider]

I see this in the context of a future problem with an increasingly belligerent China in the 2020-2025 timeframe.
We have two possibilities as far as flattops with our navy are concerned.
Option 1
Vikramaditya
New vikrant
2 mistrals(if we buy these)
2 more lpd in construction.
Vishal in construction.
I.e a deployable force of four flattops.

Option 2
Vikramaditya
New vikrant
Vishal (under construction)
1unnamed lpd(if the order is signed by end this year)
3unnamed lpds under construction.
I.e a deployable force of two maybe three flattops.
Hence my belief that the purchase of the Mistral's is in the navy's and the nation's best interests.
I rest my case.

 

[rohit.gr77]

I see this in the context of a future problem with an increasingly belligerent China in the 2020-2025 timeframe.
We have two possibilities as far as flattops with our navy are concerned.
Option 1
Vikramaditya
New vikrant
2 mistrals(if we buy these)
2 more lpd in construction.
Vishal in construction.
I.e a deployable force of four flattops.

Option 2
Vikramaditya
New vikrant
Vishal (under construction)
1unnamed lpd(if the order is signed by end this year)
3unnamed lpds under construction.
I.e a deployable force of two maybe three flattops.
Hence my belief that the purchase of the Mistral's is in the navy's and the nation's best interests.
I rest my case.

I would also like to second your views. I also feel that Option 1 proposed by you is viable option.

 

[The enlightened]

I see this in the context of a future problem with an increasingly belligerent China in the 2020-2025 timeframe.
We have two possibilities as far as flattops with our navy are concerned.
Option 1
Vikramaditya
New vikrant
2 mistrals(if we buy these)
2 more lpd in construction.
Vishal in construction.
I.e a deployable force of four flattops.

Option 2
Vikramaditya
New vikrant
Vishal (under construction)
1unnamed lpd(if the order is signed by end this year)
3unnamed lpds under construction.
I.e a deployable force of two maybe three flattops.
Hence my belief that the purchase of the Mistral's is in the navy's and the nation's best interests.
I rest my case.

Vikramaditya and Vikrant are flat-tops?

 

[bengalraider]

Vikramaditya and Vikrant are flat-tops?

All carriers are flattops. Some may look flatter than others.