Seems Russia is still sulking from getting ousted from the MMRCA tender

[BangersAndMash]

Any chance this will wake up the powers that be, that India needs to concentrate on indegenous weapons & stop relying on foreigners? Or is that wishful thinking?

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Any chance this will wake up the powers that be, that India needs to concentrate on indegenous weapons & stop relying on foreigners? Or is that wishful thinking?

I wish this was the case but it is not we are just replacing one supplier with another. It would take about 5-10 years to get an infrastructre developed where we would be 100% indigenous but the government is not as aggressive in this as they should be. But in strategic areas like missile development I am guessing we are 80-90% there.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Strategic relations with Russia remains strong even in any scenario. Even if there is any snub from Indian or Russian side, these are merely pinches. I wouldn't read much between the lines.

With or without indigenous industry, India is going away from Russian arms market. Russians know this fact very well so its all figured out for them.

I am speculating this could also be from US pressure??

 

[pmaitra]

While we may agree, disagree or speculate on what the real reasons for the topic of the thread are, I guess we all understand that as long as India does not have near to 100% indigenous research, development and manufacturing capabilities, we will have to be at the mercy of other nations.

Many in India already understand this. It's time to act ... NOW!

 

[pmaitra]

I am speculating this could also be from US pressure??

I doubt it. US pressure didn't particularly help with their fighters over the European ones.

 

[black eagle]

Strategic relations with Russia remains strong even in any scenario. Even if there is any snub from Indian or Russian side, these are merely pinches. I wouldn't read much between the lines.

With or without indigenous industry, India is going away from Russian arms market. Russians know this fact very well so its all figured out for them.

True. It does. But it is also true that the strength has diminished somewhat in the last few years. The plot seems to be going off the track a little. The biggest problem of Indo-Russia relations is that it never went beyond defence goods. That is why one problem there makes the whole relationship look worse than it actually is.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I doubt it. US pressure didn't particularly help with their fighters over the European ones.

USA has actively been trying to exploit any angle they can in Russian-Indian relations. US press has still not formally accepted they are out of the MRCA. I have not been able to find one article that officially states this.

 

[chex3009]

USA has actively been trying to exploit any angle they can in Russian-Indian relations. US press has still not formally accepted they are out of the MRCA. I have not been able to find one article that officially states this.

LF i read somewhere that there are plans to bring back F-18SH from no where back in MMRCA race. But i doubt the extent of truth.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

LF i read somewhere that there are plans to bring back F-18SH from no where back in MMRCA race. But i doubt the extent of truth.

There are also rumors the Texas F-16 plant will be closing in the not to distant future.

 

[pmaitra]

USA has actively been trying to exploit any angle they can in Russian-Indian relations. US press has still not formally accepted they are out of the MRCA. I have not been able to find one article that officially states this.

Oh yeah, arm-twisting has always be US' forté.

Check out this news article (I guess most already know this):

HAL secures order for ambulance version of ALH Dhruv from Peru news

24 June 2008

Bangalore: After persistent efforts at marketing the indigenously developed Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) India's aerospace giant, the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has finally secured a confirmed order from the South American nation of Peru. This mountain country has placed an order for two Dhruv's, as the ALH is known, in a heli-ambulance version.

The 5.5-tonne Dhruv will be used by the country's health services and will be sold at a price of Rs40 crore apiece. This, according to industry sources, is about 10-15 per cent lower than comparable machines in this class.

The Peruvian order will also be the first international civilian order for HAL.

According to HAL sources, the interior of the ambulance version of the Dhruv will be created in Europe. The work will be performed by firms that specialise in doing interiors and supplying accessories that are typically required by heli-ambulances.


HAL is seeking European expertise as currently such specialisation is not available at home.

HAL's earlier attempt to supply Dhruv helicopters to Myanmar and Chile failed to come through on account of political pressure or competitor lobbying. HAL had made a determined attempt to sell Dhruv to Chile, which had extensively tested the helicopter, when lobbying by the US government in favour of Bell Helicopter's 412 made the Chileans change their mind.

HAL lost the contract despite the price advantage offered by it. HAL sources say that the Dhruv's clear price advantage over the Bell 412 and the Eurocopter, along with the efficiency of its design and functioning is now translating into customer inquiries. It says that over the past year it has received inquiries from the air forces of 35 different countries, along with requests for demonstrations.

The Dhruv is available in different configurations and is easily adaptable for any role. By the end of the year, the Indian Army is set to take delivery of an armed version of the the ALH.

By the end of last year the Army had already taken delivery of over 75 helicopters.

Another 10 are in service with civilian customers.

Source: domain-b.com : HAL secures order for ambulance version of ALH Dhruv from Peru

 

[Armand2REP]

Even the small number of two Dhruv is good news for Turbomeca, four more engines sold.

 

[pmaitra]

^^ More have been sold to other countries as well. Now France needs to stop this puppet dance with the strings it has attached with the Turbomeca/Snecma engines and let us sell these to Myanmar. It will mean still more money for France.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

If silly little country like Poland can build a lot of its weapons then why cant India? Why do we need to face this black mail from Washington, London, Moscow or whatever distant land? Its really time the Defense Ministry wakes up and spends more money on R&D. Its really really dumb if anyone think that a country as large as India cant build her own weaponry, i am sure if we spend 2% of GDP for 5 years we can over take the west and China. This is not mere rhetoric and nationalism, i honestly think if we put our back into it we can over come it, we have an culture that wants to prove itself, not sleep. So far all our defense projects have been funded half heartedly and with doubt in our own ability. Apart from the Missile program no other program had the confidence of MoD, now we need to take a serious look or risk becoming puppets in a post cold war era.

 

[pmaitra]

If silly little country like Poland can build a lot of its weapons then why cant India? Why do we need to face this black mail from Washington, London, Moscow or whatever distant land? Its really time the Defense Ministry wakes up and spends more money on R&D. Its really really dumb if anyone think that a country as large as India cant build her own weaponry, i am sure if we spend 2% of GDP for 5 years we can over take the west and China. This is not mere rhetoric and nationalism, i honestly think if we put our back into it we can over come it, we have an culture that wants to prove itself, not sleep. So far all our defense projects have been funded half heartedly and with doubt in our own ability. Apart from the Missile program no other program had the confidence of MoD, now we need to take a serious look or risk becoming puppets in a post cold war era.

Poland was part of the Warsaw Pact and got extensive Soviet assistance, more than that what India got.

R&D simply doesn't work with investment. People have to be groomed from college. Universities have to be given grants and research starts from there. These people then go up to become innovators and designers.

For example, the fundamental and initial design of the MiG-29 and Sukhoi-30 were not done by MiG and Sukhoi corporations, but by TsAGI, which is not a manufacturing company but an institute. We need something like that in India. In fact, we need many of these.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Poland was part of the Warsaw Pact and got extensive Soviet assistance, more than that what India got.

R&D simply doesn't work with investment. People have to be groomed from college. Universities have to be given grants and research starts from there. These people then go up to become innovators and designers.

For example, the fundamental and initial design of the MiG-29 and Sukhoi-30 were not done by MiG and Sukhoi corporations, but by TsAGI, which is not a manufacturing company but an institute. We need something like that in India. In fact, we need many of these.

Yes first we need to groom our infrastructure and throw this education system out of the window. We need to build more world class Universities and get better teachers. Then again even with our current scientific pool we can do wonders, throwing money at something does not solve the problem always but in our case we need to spend more on R&D, The US spends 2.7% of GDP on R&D and we spend just 0.8%. We need to spend more to beef up the infrastructure and create jobs so that the new brains do not go abroad for work, they should be used here. We are really not serious with this whole thing, we are still doing this self-reliant thing half heartdely.

 

[mattster]

Silly country like Poland....Huh ?? - the eastern European countries like Romania, Poland, Bulgaria, Czech, Ukraine, and even tiny Armenia and many more former Soviet republics all have a very stringent education system and university system with very solid grounding in Math and Science. They may not have all the facilities of the West, but some of these small countries produce a small number of very good engineers.

Unlike India and China that mass-produce 200k to 300K engineers a year - these countries produce much smaller numbers, but the ones that graduate are usually very good.

India and China mass produce but only the top 25% or less are quality - the rest are pretty much unemployable for any kind of design engineering work. They may have to go into other areas like service, marketing, or be under-employed or totally leave the field.

That is why smaller countries like Ukraine, Poland, Czech can succeed in niche market of building sophisticated weapons where bigger countries like India and China struggle.

 

[pmaitra]

Yes first we need to groom our infrastructure and throw this education system out of the window. We need to build more world class Universities and get better teachers. Then again even with our current scientific pool we can do wonders, throwing money at something does not solve the problem always but in our case we need to spend more on R&D, The US spends 2.7% of GDP on R&D and we spend just 0.8%. We need to spend more to beef up the infrastructure and create jobs so that the new brains do not go abroad for work, they should be used here. We are really not serious with this whole thing, we are still doing this self-reliant thing half heartdely.

I agree. We are still doing this half-heartedly. I do not, however, think our education system is bad and should be thrown out of the window but we need to make some modifications to it. Agree with the rest of what you said.

Silly country like Poland....Huh ?? - the eastern European countries like Romania, Poland, Bulgaria, Czech, Ukraine, and even tiny Armenia and many more former Soviet republics all have a very stringent education system and university system with very solid grounding in Math and Science. They may not have all the facilities of the West, but some of these small countries produce a small number of very good engineers.

Unlike India and China that mass-produce 200k to 300K engineers a year - these countries produce much smaller numbers, but the ones that graduate are usually very good.

India and China mass produce but only the top 25% or less are quality - the rest are pretty much unemployable for any kind of design engineering work. They may have to go into other areas like service, marketing, or be under-employed or totally leave the field.

That is why smaller countries like Ukraine, Poland, Czech can succeed in niche market of building sophisticated weapons where bigger countries like India and China struggle.

Very well said. It is always better to focus on quality over quantity if we want to break out of this 'service provider' quagmire and make some significant strides in the innovation sector.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

I think we are really underestimating ourselves. Its our system that is failing us not our brains, we need to invest more. These back water east european countries had huge investment during Soviet Era and now they are reaping the benefits. We have really not invested hard enough, none of our Universities are in the top 100, we need to change such dismal outlooks. If we are serious i am sure we can achieve self reliance and i dont think we even need to have this discussion over Poeland.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

These posts have hit the nail right on the head. India must have millions of engineers and the recent tenders by Indian govt for light and heavy machine guns was very upsetting to think that tenders have to be put out for such small things. The biggest obstacles to indigenous development is 95% political and 5% everything else(funding,education etc..).

 

[Godless-Kafir]

These posts have hit the nail right on the head. India must have millions of engineers and the recent tenders by Indian govt for light and heavy machine guns was very upsetting to think that tenders have to be put out for such small things. The biggest obstacles to indigenous development is 95% political and 5% everything else(funding,education etc..).

I dont understand why we need to buy things like guns and howitzers. These are the basic things that a country the size of India must have mastered by now, even Singapore does that and tries to sell us its Howitzers and guns. We shamelessly buy goods from a country that is the size of an parking lot and its hard to imagine if someone is going to argue about Singapore having a good pool of engineers than India and blame it on lack of quality of engineers. I say plain bollocks to that.