Saddled with Insas, Army wants new AK-47s

[tharikiran]

after all this coversation may be we should just develop a higher caliber round for the INSAS for the punch.

 

[Yusuf]

after all this coversation may be we should just develop a higher caliber round for the INSAS for the punch.

That is I think the way to go.

 

[Texasjohn]

Read earlier about someone complaining about the 3 round burst for the INSAS.

We do it for the M-16 also.

Modified Burst Rules for Palladium

why is that a problem?

 

[Antimony]

Read earlier about someone complaining about the 3 round burst for the INSAS.

We do it for the M-16 also.

Modified Burst Rules for Palladium

why is that a problem?

Very good point.

There are tonnes of videos that show how uncontrollable any gun is on full-auto, not to mention a complete waste of ammo

 

[Texasjohn]

Very good point.

There are tonnes of videos that show how uncontrollable any gun is on full-auto, not to mention a complete waste of ammo

It is however the coolest way to empty a clip!!

I remember years ago I modified a plain old 10/22 Ruger - put a composite pistol grip stock on it with a 60 round clip. We went to my buddy's farm. I had filed down the firing pin. The gun sounded like a CIWS and was cool to watch the empty shells being ejected in a stream. After about 5 seconds or so, the gun jammed ( about the 45-50 round count), and the barrel was sizzling hot.

Not much you can do except put the gun down, walk away, and go get a cold beer while it cooled!!!!

btw, Brig. Ray has used the INSAS in both combat and COIN. Honestly I have a hard time differentiating a firefight between a Talibunny and an Infantry unit. They both happen to be shooting at me!!

 

[bhramos]

by the way we are getting M4 carbines,
which have seen lot of Opp's in Iraq, Afghan & Israel.
will this weapon be best suited for COIN Opp's in India ?

 

[Antimony]

It is however the coolest way to empty a clip!!

I remember years ago I modified a plain old 10/22 Ruger - put a composite pistol grip stock on it with a 60 round clip. We went to my buddy's farm. I had filed down the firing pin. The gun sounded like a CIWS and was cool to watch the empty shells being ejected in a stream. After about 5 seconds or so, the gun jammed ( about the 45-50 round count), and the barrel was sizzling hot.

Is that legal?

Oh wait, you are in Texas

Here in Washington State we only have semi-auto versions. But then, with the current price of ammo, maybe that is a good thing(

Not much you can do except put the gun down, walk away, and go get a cold beer while it cooled!!!!

btw, Brig. Ray has used the INSAS in both combat and COIN. Honestly I have a hard time differentiating a firefight between a Talibunny and an Infantry unit. They both happen to be shooting at me!!

From what I understand, a "standard" engagement with an Infantry Unit will probably happen at a somewhat longer range, and anyway you would be hitting them with your arty and CAS during that. If you manage to hit a enemy trooper, his mates will try to take him out of harm's way and there would be additional attrition to enemy forces from that.

The rifle they would use would be of the Assault rifle category. Also, the typical unit engaging the enemy would be one which has been away from their field base and hence be loaded with stuff, hence they could do with a smaller ammo loadout.

A "standard" engagement with Talibunnies or associated types would be more like urban or semi urban ops, with a carbine class rifle for close quarter manouvering (also a reason why bullpups are popular COIN toys). The bad guy would be up close and you would need to drop him quick. His mates do not care to resuce him if he is hit, as far as they are considered he is on a headstart to meet 72 fine gals.

The COIN operators would also be closer to their field base, hence they would not mind carrying a slgithly heavier ammo loadout, as they do not have the other gear.

I guess each engagement or operations is different, os it would be nice to have different toys.

One think that I would really like to understand is the applicability of hollow point or other expanding ammo for COIN.

They would drop a bad guy real fast and I don't think would contravene Geneva Conventions if used exclusively in COIN. I personally view COIN more as police ops (yes, tangos are criminals). In the US, many PDs use HP ammo, so I do not see a problem.

Thoughts?

 

[MIG_ACE]

Several of the problems faced by the INSAS have to do with bad quality control at the OFB rather than bad design. They sorted out most of the problems after getting feedback after Kargil.
The problem in insufficient stopping power of the 5.56mm round is not INSAS specific. All other rifles using the same ammo including the M-16 face similar issues. Its an accuracy and range vs power tradeoff.
As far as the absence of Full-auto on the INSAS is concerned, that's how the army wanted it. From what I understand, its easier to make a rifle fire on full-auto than to make it fire in a 2 or 3 round burst mode. The army wanted to minimize wastage of ammo so they insisted on the 3-round burst mode rather than full-auto. Incidentally the M-16A2 assault rifle also has only Single shot and 3-round burst modes. No full auto.

here are only 2 things about the INSAS that I'm really clueless about.
1. The orange furniture that makes the soldier carrying it stand out against any background.

and

2. The army's insistence on 20 round magazines even when 30 round ones are available.

ray sir, I would really appreciate it if you could enlighten us about these two aspects.

 

[StealthSniper]

I hate the overall look of the INSAS. It looks like it has to much plastic and the orange bits of it make it look cheap. It's probably effective but it definitely doesn't look badass like the AK-47.

 

[Igorr]

Interesting thread, gentlemen.
In reality INSAS and AK-47 are basically the same systems, with only a different caliber. So, my question is whether manufacturing is the problem? May be a little 'finish' of external design could be enough? Or indeed other caliber is needed for the a-insurgent operations at least? What Indian soldiers and officers think about it? Any additional primary information from the units?

 

[tarunraju]

Make the troops practice head-shooting. Terrorists usually don't have head-wear (like helmets). A burst (assuming INSAS supports BF) of three rounds near the head steps up chance of one going right through. In anti-terrorist / anti-naxal operations the enemy is usually expendable and you're not looking to take too many prisoners.

 

[bhramos]

you r right tarun,
head shots are great, but y r army not giving permission for head shots?
do they need prisoners?
to tell about terrorists next move?

 

[F-14]

bharmosji i to agree that a terroist dead is one terroist less but what ever Intel we can get from these swines can help us may be to save the lives of many innocent cives and our boys to

 

[tarunraju]

...which is why, you don't need to take as many prisoners as possible, but rather leave as few people alive as possible. This I think is what the Israelis do, and they're excellent in anti-terrorist warfare. Ensure one person is kept alive for interrogation, slaughter the rest.

 

[bhramos]

you are right so last year one Israeli general came to Kashmir to check the way we are dealing and gave some of his points to IA.

 

[Yusuf]

...which is why, you don't need to take as many prisoners as possible, but rather leave as few people alive as possible. This I think is what the Israelis do, and they're excellent in anti-terrorist warfare. Ensure one person is kept alive for interrogation, slaughter the rest.

Thats what happened in mumbai. one caught, rest sent to hell.

 

[Yusuf]

I dont know what the fuss is all about with the rifle. The 5.56x45 NATO is a round used by almost everyone including the US in AfPak. The US wants to kill all of them and offcourse capture a few to get intel.

The way people are talking is that this round is a rubber bullet that doest not kill. it does kill and it has killed a lot of em over the years. And yes all major assault rifle use the three burst method including the M16.

 

[F-14]

Thats what happened in mumbai. one caught, rest sent to hell.

i would rather call those swines Mommy and relatives to see these Terror swines die

 

[tarunraju]

Thats what happened in mumbai. one caught, rest sent to hell.

The one guy was caught by the Mumbai Police, and not the Armed Forces, or NSG. I don't think the police that caught Ajmal Kasab were armed with assault rifles.

 

[Yusuf]

The NSG/armed forces killed them all. So whats the fuss about the rifle?