Rustom 2/TAPAS/BH-201 MALE UAV News Updates and Discussions

[abingdonboy]

The issue is not if the tech is complex or easy. The issue is if Rustom/Tapas design team has opted for this or not!
The fact remains that Rustom/Tapas design at this point has opted for LOS - either to due the projection that a dedicated satellite will not be available or for some other reason.
ECIL is not part of the Rustom/Tapas workcenters. Any company can offer it's product line to be assimilated into another product design - but the decision to include or not will remain with Rustom/Tapas designers!!
It's not uncommon for various companies (from all over the world) to put out a poster/brochure on how their product can become part of UAV/FighterJet/Tank etc....

Why wouldn't you read Focus feature on Rustom/Tapas written by DRDO's own team (link & extract already posted in this thread by me & another member), instead of speculating based on extraneous babble?

Today SATCOM is not being tested on Rustom (just like EO pod isn't, or SAR/ELINT pods) but that doesn't mean it isn't what is eventually planned. EO/SAR/ELINT pods and even RUSTOM's Indian engines are being tested seperately on different systems and will eventually feature on RUSTOM, so wilL SATCOM.

SATCOM is and always has been an intended feature of RUSTOM-2:

`Here is the link to the DRDO's RFQ for the devlopment of a SATCOM for RUSTOM-2:

https://www.scribd.com/document/129...India-s-Rustom-II-Unmanned-Aerial-Vehicle-UAV

 

[tharun]

It's a 2013 RFI that means by now we had a prototype

Today SATCOM is not being tested on Rustom (just like EO pod isn't, or SAR/ELINT pods) but that doesn't mean it isn't what is eventually planned. EO/SAR/ELINT pods and even RUSTOM's Indian engines are being tested seperately on different systems and will eventually feature on RUSTOM, so wilL SATCOM.

SATCOM is and always has been an intended feature of RUSTOM-2:

`Here is the link to the DRDO's RFQ for the devlopment of a SATCOM for RUSTOM-2:

https://www.scribd.com/document/129...India-s-Rustom-II-Unmanned-Aerial-Vehicle-UAV

Sent from my Redmi 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Enquirer]

Today SATCOM is not being tested on Rustom (just like EO pod isn't, or SAR/ELINT pods) but that doesn't mean it isn't what is eventually planned. EO/SAR/ELINT pods and even RUSTOM's Indian engines are being tested seperately on different systems and will eventually feature on RUSTOM, so wilL SATCOM.

SATCOM is and always has been an intended feature of RUSTOM-2:

`Here is the link to the DRDO's RFQ for the devlopment of a SATCOM for RUSTOM-2:

https://www.scribd.com/document/129...India-s-Rustom-II-Unmanned-Aerial-Vehicle-UAV

Dude! That's a FIVE year old tender!! A lot could and has changed since then!
I am not talking about what's being tested or not tested on a particular day.
DRDO's july newsletter carries a 'FOCUS FEATURE' on Rustom/Tapas, where everything that goes into Rustom/Tapas has been described (including EO, SAR, ELINT etc). Please invest 10-15 mins reading that instead of googling randomly to prove your point.
Don't get me wrong - I am not saying SatCom is a bad idea. But for reasons best known to DRDO, it's not part of current Rustom/Tapas design (what I don't know I won't speculate)!

 

[charlie]

Alpha design manpack are capable of dual channel, they can use the video downlink from RUSTOM and share it over the network, so even in India a solider will be able to share battlefield SA. too bad we don't have a handheld capable of doing it.

 

[abingdonboy]

Dude! That's a FIVE year old tender!! A lot could and has changed since then!
I am not talking about what's being tested or not tested on a particular day.
DRDO's july newsletter carries a 'FOCUS FEATURE' on Rustom/Tapas, where everything that goes into Rustom/Tapas has been described (including EO, SAR, ELINT etc). Please invest 10-15 mins reading that instead of googling randomly to prove your point.
Don't get me wrong - I am not saying SatCom is a bad idea. But for reasons best known to DRDO, it's not part of current Rustom/Tapas design (what I don't know I won't speculate)!

I’m not arguing with you about what is CURRENTLY on Rustom-2 but OBVIOUSLY DRDO has plans to install SATCOM at some point.

At no point has DRDO said SATCOM is off the table and again, this isn’t a huge task, RUSTOM-2 is clearly designed for a SATCOM (see the bubble design in the nose), if users demand it can be added.

Issue probably is that IA and IAF have no real use for >250KM Range, they are probably more interested in endurance. If IN ever wants to buy RUSTOM, then SATCOM is going to be added.

 

[Enquirer]

I’m not arguing with you about what is CURRENTLY on Rustom-2 but OBVIOUSLY DRDO has plans to install SATCOM at some point.

At no point has DRDO said SATCOM is off the table and again, this isn’t a huge task, RUSTOM-2 is clearly designed for a SATCOM (see the bubble design in the nose), if users demand it can be added.

Issue probably is that IA and IAF have no real use for >250KM Range, they are probably more interested in endurance. If IN ever wants to buy RUSTOM, then SATCOM is going to be added.

Clearly the current iteration of Rustom/Tapas won't have SatCom - it's clearly meant to be LOS.
I doubt that the reason is because IA/IAF doesn't care beyond 250kms! It might mostly have to do with the availability of requisite Satellite transponders (imagine if 200 such UAVs are pressed into service simultaneously during war). I also suspect that the 'real-time control' of UAV with latency associated with Geo Satellite link might have proved to be challenging, LEO satlink might have been easier to implement. However it would take a 'constellation' of LEO Sats for 24hr coverage (instead of a single GEO sat).

All I am saying is "will be' should NOT be used loosely when use of 'could be', 'should be' etc might reflect something closer to truth.

 

[abingdonboy]

Clearly the current iteration of Rustom/Tapas won't have SatCom - it's clearly meant to be LOS.
I doubt that the reason is because IA/IAF doesn't care beyond 250kms! It might mostly have to do with the availability of requisite Satellite transponders (imagine if 200 such UAVs are pressed into service simultaneously during war). I also suspect that the 'real-time control' of UAV with latency associated with Geo Satellite link might have proved to be challenging, LEO satlink might have been easier to implement. However it would take a 'constellation' of LEO Sats for 24hr coverage (instead of a single GEO sat).

All I am saying is "will be' should NOT be used loosely when use of 'could be', 'should be' etc might reflect something closer to truth.

For which missions would the IAF/IA require ranges beyond 250 km?

Only a very small number of IAF missions would ever require that, IN is a different story.

Not sure about the sat transponders issue, infra can and will be built up in time

 

[Kshithij]

For which missions would the IAF/IA require ranges beyond 250 km?

Only a very small number of IAF missions would ever require that, IN is a different story.

Not sure about the sat transponders issue, infra can and will be built up in time

Rustom can be used for Coast Guard too. India can use Rustom 2 for surveillance of incoming enemy ships or boats. Coast guard is also very important area and not just IN or IAF or Army. IN may not use Rustom as the payload required for ASW operations will be much higher. But, Coast Guard definitely has a big eed for coastal surveillance.

Satellite communication can indeed work if there are multiple dedicated satellites. The latency is hardly an issue as people do use satellite phones to speak. Latency of 0.3-0.4 seconds will not matter much in surveillance roles. Unless there is some real time maneuvering required for battle or dogfights, which Rustom is not equipped to do anyways, latency won't matter. Flying a drone over the coastline is much more cheaper and cost effective than flying helicopters or Do228 planes.

Rustom2 already has SATCOM inside it. Refer to my picture of Rustom2 internals to see that there is indeed significant dedicated space for SATCOM. GPS or IRNSS does not require that much space. Even hand held mobile phones have accurate GPS nowadays. So, that SATCOM must be for satellite link. Whether the dedicated satellites are available in sufficient numbers is the question

Here is the internal diagram: https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/rustom-2-male-uav.73699/page-25#post-1439673

 

[Enquirer]

For which missions would the IAF/IA require ranges beyond 250 km?

Only a very small number of IAF missions would ever require that, IN is a different story.

Not sure about the sat transponders issue, infra can and will be built up in time

The purpose of a surveillance UAV would be to monitor regions as far into the enemy territory as possible while being as far away from the enemy territory! You're assuming that the ground control stations will be stationed right on the LOC, and Rustom/Tapas will make shallow forays into Pak/China to view enemy troop concentrations!
Most of the key enemy assets (fighter jets, ballistic missile batteries etc) will be moved far away from the border during war time!
You're once again making speculative tall claims with a "will be" instead of using a modest "could be"!!

It's weird that you started this argument claiming Rustom will have unrestricted range via SatCom, now you're arguing that there's nothing of interest beyond 250kms (as such SatCom is a waste???)

At least we agree that IN will require longer range! If Rustom transmission power is good enough then perhaps receiver antenna could be atop the peaks in western ghats (5000-10,000 ft) to attain around 500-600 kms LOS!)

 

[Enquirer]

As is the norm in most of these forums, every Tom-Dick-Harry jumps in to 'authoritatively' postulate on subject matters that they've absolutely no idea about! Nor do they possess basic knowledge of physics!
I saw that the usual vermin k'SHIT'hij also jumped in!

SatCom on Rustom sounds so fancy to every twerp, but none understand the details! Is it a GEO satellite or a LEO satellite? Nobody cares!
Do these nincompoops think that the transmission power required (from Rustom) to a LEO satellite (orbiting at about 100-1000 kms above) is the same as the power required to transmit to a GEO satellite (orbiting at about 35,000 kms)? Only morons can't see the increase in power requirement!

SatComs designed by ECIL or DEAL clearly state that they have a max range of 250kms in LOS mode or 1000 kms direct-to-satellite.

As such, Rustom (if it ever does) will only communicate with a LEO satellite. But LEO satellites revolve much faster than earth's rotation! As such, one would need one/two dozen of such satellites to have 24 hour coverage.
Does India have that many LEO sats available OR will they become available ($$$?) in the near future??

So, it's not surprising at all that Rustom/Tapas will have LOS communication for the foreseeable future.

 

[abingdonboy]

Rustom can be used for Coast Guard too. India can use Rustom 2 for surveillance of incoming enemy ships or boats. Coast guard is also very important area and not just IN or IAF or Army. IN may not use Rustom as the payload required for ASW operations will be much higher. But, Coast Guard definitely has a big eed for coastal surveillance.

Satellite communication can indeed work if there are multiple dedicated satellites. The latency is hardly an issue as people do use satellite phones to speak. Latency of 0.3-0.4 seconds will not matter much in surveillance roles. Unless there is some real time maneuvering required for battle or dogfights, which Rustom is not equipped to do anyways, latency won't matter. Flying a drone over the coastline is much more cheaper and cost effective than flying helicopters or Do228 planes.

Rustom2 already has SATCOM inside it. Refer to my picture of Rustom2 internals to see that there is indeed significant dedicated space for SATCOM. GPS or IRNSS does not require that much space. Even hand held mobile phones have accurate GPS nowadays. So, that SATCOM must be for satellite link. Whether the dedicated satellites are available in sufficient numbers is the question

Here is the internal diagram: https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/rustom-2-male-uav.73699/page-25#post-1439673

There is no doubting that RUSTOM-2 is designed to have a SATCOM, when this will be available or in what numbers is another matter.


+ yes, ICG is also another user for whom this system will be very useful and who would want/need SATCOM.

The purpose of a surveillance UAV would be to monitor regions as far into the enemy territory as possible while being as far away from the enemy territory! You're assuming that the ground control stations will be stationed right on the LOC, and Rustom/Tapas will make shallow forays into Pak/China to view enemy troop concentrations!
Most of the key enemy assets (fighter jets, ballistic missile batteries etc) will be moved far away from the border during war time!
You're once again making speculative tall claims with a "will be" instead of using a modest "could be"!!

Just look at a map and how the IAF/IA would expect to fight, even 100km inside Indian territory a ground control station can be to provide massive penetration into Pakistan/China (150km+). But would a slow moving, medium altitude UAV like the Rustom ever go that far into contested airspace? India would need to have total air dominance for that to be the case. Really IA/IAF need to be able to peek a few dozen kms into Pakistan for a limited conflict (where,say, IBGs are invovled) but during "peacetime" will sit over Indian territroy, perhaps peeking a few kms into Pakistan.


There just isn't any need for IAF or IA UAVs to have >250km ranges and thus DRDO's devloped LOS data links are more than sufficent. A ground control station can be deployed at Pathankot and can easily be controlling a Rustom over Lahore, why on earth would the IA/IAF ever need to go deeper than that? Heck, a ground control station deployed at Srinagar could easily control Rustoms over Islamabad and Rawlpindi.


Form fullows function, cannot imagine why IA/IAF would ever need to go deeper.


IN/ICG is a very different story of course.

 

[Enquirer]

There is no doubting that RUSTOM-2 is designed to have a SATCOM, when this will be available or in what numbers is another matter.


+ yes, ICG is also another user for whom this system will be very useful and who would want/need SATCOM.



Just look at a map and how the IAF/IA would expect to fight, even 100km inside Indian territory a ground control station can be to provide massive penetration into Pakistan/China (150km+). But would a slow moving, medium altitude UAV like the Rustom ever go that far into contested airspace? India would need to have total air dominance for that to be the case. Really IA/IAF need to be able to peek a few dozen kms into Pakistan for a limited conflict (where,say, IBGs are invovled) but during "peacetime" will sit over Indian territroy, perhaps peeking a few kms into Pakistan.


There just isn't any need for IAF or IA UAVs to have >250km ranges and thus DRDO's devloped LOS data links are more than sufficent. A ground control station can be deployed at Pathankot and can easily be controlling a Rustom over Lahore, why on earth would the IA/IAF ever need to go deeper than that? Heck, a ground control station deployed at Srinagar could easily control Rustoms over Islamabad and Rawlpindi.


Form fullows function, cannot imagine why IA/IAF would ever need to go deeper.


IN/ICG is a very different story of course.

From a UAV perspective - the transceiver doesn't care if it's linked to a satellite or a ground station. The communication technology and device remains the same. The antenna will just be pointed skywards or earthwards - that's all!!
You guys are just getting carried away by the name 'SatCom'.
True satellite communication will happen when India invests in satellites - as simple as that!!!

That said, surveillance is required not just for immediate front but to help locate ballistic missile batteries & other assests! Enemy fighter jets will be moved several hundred kms away from the border! (especially on the Chinese front!)

250 kms range is useful, but peeking beyond 250kms is also required! As such,my idea/question about one Rustom acting as a relay agent for another Rustom!

 

[abingdonboy]

True satellite communication will happen when India invests in satellites - as simple as that!!!

This is inevitable, IN already has their own, IAF and IA will follow very shortly and there a multiple dual-use Indian comns sats already up there.

but peeking beyond 250kms is also required

No doubt BUT is a MALE UAV the best tool for that? Cannot look at the range figures in isolation, question is how will a slow moving medium altitude UAV the size of a small aircraft be able to penetrate >250km into enemy airspace without being blown out of the skies?

This is why I say that for maritime missions the Rustom-2 will need SATCOM but for the IA/IAF it is more than suitable to have LOS, in fact 250km range is overkill in many case, this will just allow ground stations to be further inside India, not to allow Rustom to go deeper into Pakistan.

But there is no doubt Rustom-2 has been designed from the outset to have SATCOM at some point.

 

[Enquirer]

This is inevitable, IN already has their own, IAF and IA will follow very shortly and there a multiple dual-use Indian comns sats already up there.

IN doesn't have the kinda satellites required for Rustom. I don't want to type the whole GEO-LEO stuff yet again; please do me a favor and read my earlier posts!
Rustom's SatCom at this time is not designed for GEO communication!

No doubt BUT is a MALE UAV the best tool for that? Cannot look at the range figures in isolation, question is how will a slow moving medium altitude UAV the size of a small aircraft be able to penetrate >250km into enemy airspace without being blown out of the skies?

No doubt that a HALE UAV will do a better job, but doesn't mean India will not try to press whatever asset it has to do the job that needs to get done!
IA soldiers didn't have bullet proof jackets for decades - did it stop IA from sending them to face a hail of bullets & shrapnel?? Did IAF not send its fighters into enemy territory when the fighters didn't have EW suite or NGARMs?
Remember, few UAVs are kinda of expendable during war. A quick peek at some strategic assets of enemy is worth losing a UAV.
Also, why do you think Pakistan's/China's air defence will be way stronger 400 kms from the border compared to 150 kms from the border? isn't it common-sensical that most of the enemy's air defence will be closer to the border (50 to 100kms). So. how could Rustom freely "flutter its wings" 150 kms into enemy territory but will suddenly fall prey if it flies 400kms??

This is why I say that for maritime missions the Rustom-2 will need SATCOM but for the IA/IAF it is more than suitable to have LOS, in fact 250km range is overkill in many case, this will just allow ground stations to be further inside India, not to allow Rustom to go deeper into Pakistan.

But there is no doubt Rustom-2 has been designed from the outset to have SATCOM at some point.

Glad you think at least Navy needs a range beyond 250kms (IAF also does!).
My question/idea still remains - in the absence of satellites (at least in the medium term), perhaps Rustom could act as a relay agent for other Rustoms.

 

[abingdonboy]

IN doesn't have the kinda satellites required for Rustom.

GSAT series are GEOs

Rustom's SatCom at this time is not designed for GEO communication!

Sorry but I am really struggling to follow your dismissal of the facts that are out there.

1. RUSTOM-2 IS designed to have SATCOm capability (when is another matter)
2. This SATCOM IS meant to use a GEO sat (via Ku-band transponder) to rely information from the ADT-SAT on the UAV to the GDT-SAT
3. DRDO HAS moved ahead to develop and demonstrate this capability

All of the above are verifiable facts, all of the above is actually doable TODAY with available equipment (GSAT-7 for example is in the right orbit with Ku-band transponders) now we can debate the extent to which this has been made a reality thus far by DRDO but clearly the intent is there.

No doubt that a HALE UAV will do a better job, but doesn't mean India will not try to press whatever asset it has to do the job that needs to get done!
IA soldiers didn't have bullet proof jackets for decades - did it stop IA from sending them to face a hail of bullets & shrapnel?? Did IAF not send its fighters into enemy territory when the fighters didn't have EW suite or NGARMs?
Remember, few UAVs are kinda of expendable during war. A quick peek at some strategic assets of enemy is worth losing a UAV.
Also, why do you think Pakistan's/China's air defence will be way stronger 400 kms from the border compared to 150 kms from the border? isn't it common-sensical that most of the enemy's air defence will be closer to the border (50 to 100kms). So. how could Rustom freely "flutter its wings" 150 kms into enemy territory but will suddenly fall prey if it flies 400kms??

Okay, putting aside the survivability question (which I'm not at all satsified has been answered), the issue remains why would you need to go >200km into Pak? Most of their critical mil/strategic infrastructure is <150km away from the Indian border.

 

[abingdonboy]

Remember, few UAVs are kinda of expendable during war. A quick peek at some strategic assets of enemy is worth losing a UAV.

A slow moving MALE is the most credible asset for this role?

 

[Enquirer]

GSAT series are GEOs


Sorry but I am really struggling to follow your dismissal of the facts that are out there.

1. RUSTOM-2 IS designed to have SATCOm capability (when is another matter)
2. This SATCOM IS meant to use a GEO sat (via Ku-band transponder) to rely information from the ADT-SAT on the UAV to the GDT-SAT
3. DRDO HAS moved ahead to develop and demonstrate this capability

All of the above are verifiable facts, all of the above is actually doable TODAY with available equipment (GSAT-7 for example is in the right orbit with Ku-band transponders) now we can debate the extent to which this has been made a reality thus far by DRDO but clearly the intent is there.

Do move beyond the name and read the actual specs of the SatCom device. It has a max range of 1000kms in Satellite communication mode (see pic). If you show me that it's range is 35,000 then I'll agree that the intent was to use GEO sats!

Okay, putting aside the survivability question (which I'm not at all satsified has been answered), the issue remains why would you need to go >200km into Pak? Most of their critical mil/strategic infrastructure is <150km away from the Indian border.

Dude! How many times do I need to tell you?
The key assets of interest like ballistic missile batteries & fighter jets will all be on the western side of Pakistan!
Do you think Pakistan & China will keep its fighters close to the border during war time?? It basic war principle - they'll fly from far off , but will do a quick refuel at a forward post (there'll be several of those). IAF will want to destroy the big air bases on the Western side of Pak!
I don't need to remind you that Pakistan is not stupid to keep a 2000km range missile battery close to its border with India!

 

[Enquirer]

A slow moving MALE is the most credible asset for this role?

As credible as IA soldier charging onto enemy posts without bullet proof jackets!
What's the alternative? A manned fighter jet?
Till the time higher speed MQ9s or Ghatak come into the arsenal, slow moving UAVs can be tasked.
You still haven't answered how Rustom is safe 200kms into enemy territory but not safe at 400kms!!
Once the UAV goes past 100 kms, there's no air-defence radar tracking it!!!!

 

[abingdonboy]

Do move beyond the name and read the actual specs of the SatCom device. It has a max range of 1000kms in Satellite communication mode (see pic). If you show me that it's range is 35,000 then I'll agree that the intent was to use GEO sats!

This is all based on this single image? We have seen plenty of these "official" posters riddled with errors but leaving that aside, DRDO's actual technical specifications for the SATCOM they wish to install on Rustom 2 clearly states it will be for linking via GEO sats.

what use would a 1000km range on a SATCOM be? Zilch.

DRDO aren't so stupid as to not build their equipment around the assets and tech already in use/in the pipeline.The 1000km range doesn't even make sense, like you said that would be for LEO sats but who uses LEO sats for these sorts of applications when they have so few of them and thus cannot provide dedicated coverage. On the other hand plenty of Indian GEOs are already up there and many more are going up soon.

GSAT-series/GEO sats with Ku-band transponders isn't mentioned without reason in DRDO's RFQ.

 

[G10]

What is the difference between recon data from uav versus satellite? I want to understand relevance of recon uav in age of earth observation satellites.