Russians reluctant to share design information on FGFA !

[Kunal Biswas]

Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF

The Indian Air Force alleges Russians reluctant to share critical design information, besides technical and cost issues
Ajai Shukla | Mumbai
January 21, 2014 Last Updated at 00:32 IST

Business Standard has reviewed the minutes of that meeting. The IAF's three top objections to the FGFA were:

(a) The Russians are reluctant to share critical design information with India;
(b) The fighter's current AL-41F1 engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI's AL-31 engines; and
(c) It is too expensive. With India paying $6 billion to co-develop the FGFA, "a large percentage of IAF's capital budget will be locked up."

On January 15, the IAF renewed the attack in New Delhi, at a MoD meeting to review progress on the FGFA. The IAF's deputy chief of air staff (DCAS), its top procurement official, declared the FGFA's engine was unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered, India's work share too low, and that the fighter's price would be exorbitant by the time it enters service.

Read More At Source : :: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

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Like many said, No one will give you the best technology they have, You have to work your way up, Listen from IAF mouth ..

This is going to be IAF`s T-90S scam, If goes forward ..

IAF must think abt its future which is better off depending on Imports ..

 

[arnabmit]

Ajai Shukla also points out that IAF is making this issue as they want 126 Rafale (and probably 63 more) at a huge cost, eating into fund earmarked for FGFA.

This is similar to when IAF quoted deflated figures for Piatus, to discourage development of HTT-40.

Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF

The Indian Air Force alleges Russians reluctant to share critical design information, besides technical and cost issues
Ajai Shukla | Mumbai
January 21, 2014 Last Updated at 00:32 IST



Read More At Source : :: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

========================

Like many said, No one will give you the best technology they have, You have to work your way up, Listen from IAF mouth ..

This is going to be IAF`s T-90S scam, If goes forward ..

IAF must think abt its future which is better off depending on Imports ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You must read the latter part of the article, Unlike Platus & HTT-40 which are of same catagory, FGFA and Rafale are not ..

FGFA is whole different catagory of 5th Genration Heavy fighter hence there roles are different ..

Ajai Shukla also points out that IAF is making this issue as they want 126 Rafale (and probably 63 more) at a huge cost, eating into fund earmarked for FGFA.

This is similar to when IAF quoted deflated figures for Piatus, to discourage development of HTT-40.

 

[mattster]

I think the IAF guys are spot on. The FGFA is a stealth rework of the Su30-MKI without state of the art avionics, sensors, and radar.
The Russians have fallen too far behind in avionics. Plus they will not share critical design know how - who can blame them, no one will do that.

So it's makes sense to ask why lock up so much money on an out of date stealth fighter that isn't even close to getting into production line.
Why not go for the F-35 which is already coming off the manufacturing line and will be used by multiple customers.

India and Russia go back a long way in defense and there are plenty of other deals that the Russians can do with India.
By the time the Russian FGFA rolls out - it may end costing more than the F-35 which will be a more mature proven platform or even buying more Rafale.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I think its best for India and IAF to invest more in domestic Industry with cooperation from different firms ..

For example, Kaveri project is running smooth with Russians ..

 

[TrueSpirit1]

@Ray Sir @p2prada @Decklander @ersakthivel @Twinblade @Armand2REP @halloweene @Austin @gadeshi @sayareakd

Please have a look at the opening post by Kunal. This is a huge revelation, if true, with far-reaching repercussions on India's defence planning. Are the Russains planning to arm-twist us again ala Gorky episode ? Or, Russian industry is actually incapable of designing/engineering & fielding a real 5th-Gen airborne platform ?

Ajai Shukla also points out that IAF is making this issue as they want 126 Rafale (and probably 63 more) at a huge cost, eating into fund earmarked for FGFA.

This is similar to when IAF quoted deflated figures for Piatus, to discourage development of HTT-40.

 

[sayareakd]

So it's makes sense to ask why lock up so much money on an out of date stealth fighter that isn't even close to getting into production line.
Why not go for the F-35 which is already coming off the manufacturing line and will be used by multiple customers.

Ok send 25 fighter free of cost if we like them then we will give order for 400 fighters and upfront money.

 

[sayareakd]

@Ray Sir @p2prada @Decklander @ersakthivel @Twinblade @Armand2REP @halloween @Austin @gadeshi @sayareakd

Please have a look at the opening post by Kunal. This is a huge revelation, if true, with far-reaching repercussions on India's defence planning. Are the Russains planning to arm-twist us again ala Gorky episode ? Or, Russian industry is actually incapable of designing/engineering & fielding a real 5th-Gen airborne platform ?

Yeah Ajaji wanted to scrap MRCA for F35 and now he want to scrap FGFA for F35.

True to US salesmanship, they change the opinion then give goodies.

 

[p2prada]

@Ray Sir @p2prada @Decklander @ersakthivel @Twinblade @Armand2REP @halloween @Austin @gadeshi @sayareakd

Please have a look at the opening post by Kunal. This is a huge revelation, if true, with far-reaching repercussions on India's defence planning. Are the Russains planning to arm-twist us again ala Gorky episode ? Or, Russian industry is actually incapable of designing/engineering & fielding a real 5th-Gen airborne platform ?

Ajai Shukla is quite anti-Russian. A lot of his articles have carried wrong information, including T-90 about ToT, which he himself retracted from in a future blog post of his.

This article is no different. He's made elementary mistakes which he makes a lot when he is talking about aircraft.

Anyway, I posted my view on this article in the PAKFA thread.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...neration-fighter-aircraft-215.html#post843842

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Ajai Shukla is quite anti-Russian. A lot of his articles have carried wrong information, including T-90 about ToT, which he himself retracted from in a future blog post of his.

This article is no different. He's made elementary mistakes which he makes a lot when he is talking about aircraft.

Anyway, I posted my view on this article in the PAKFA thread.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...neration-fighter-aircraft-215.html#post843842

Just read your latest posts on that thread. I concur with your views.

But, if IAF top brass is saying what the OP says, it could possibly affect future decisions. Even if the reporter is overtly anti-Russian, he cannot put words in IAF's mouth. IAF DCAS must have actually given the above statements in his official capacity in full senses (without being inebriated) or else, the very credibility of Shukla & his career (or, whatever is left of that) is at stake....

Why do you think IAF came up with these statements at this point of time, being aware of the fact that they are stirring the hornet's nest ? Arms-lobbies at play ?

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Yeah Ajaji wanted to scrap MRCA for F35 and now he want to scrap FGFA for F35.

True to US salesmanship, they change the opinion then give goodies.

But, Russian arms-lobby is considered equally influential (maybe, more). How do we establish the truth ? How do we know if IAF DCAS is lying in his full official capacity ? Could there be any element of truth in what DCAS says ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sir, retd Col Shukla may be a Pro-American lobby, But his views abt Arjun and T-90 are invaluable and some of what i can also support from what i know in person ..

Though yes, F-35 fever is high in his Blogs ..

Yeah Ajaji wanted to scrap MRCA for F35 and now he want to scrap FGFA for F35.

True to US salesmanship, they change the opinion then give goodies.

 

[p2prada]

Just read your latest posts on that thread. I concur with your views.

But, if IAF top brass is saying what the OP says, it could possibly affect future decisions. Even if the reporter is overtly anti-Russian, he cannot put words in IAF's mouth. IAF DCAS must have actually given the above statements in his official capacity in full senses (without being inebriated) or else, the very credibility of Shukla & his career (or, whatever is left of that) is at stake....

Why do you think IAF came up with these statements at this point of time, being aware of the fact that they are stirring the hornet's nest ? Arms-lobbies at play ?

Most of the DCAS claims are not following the official news properly. For eg: Even we in the civilian circles know that the final FGFA prototype will carry Item 30 engine. So, why make noises about the 117?

The stealth and performance is directly affected when we consider one engine over the other. It is obvious that the current prototypes will not be very stealthy, so if they are relying on prototype stealth and performance figures then they will fall short of actual goals.

As for supply of technical design, the design is required in 100% before a contract is signed and FSED phase begins. Saying the Russians will not provide technical documents in a 50-50 JV is extremely stupid to believe. The Russians are in a hurry to sign the deal and get it over with. It is not in their interest at all to delay the process even further. OTOH, air chief has already said technical documents were transferred.

Media sensationalizes simple news. If it turns out that the DCAS merely mentioned inadequacies of the prototype, then the media can always spin things out of control. If he said something like, "AL-41F1 does not provide full stealth and performance for FGFA." Shukla changed it to, "declared the FGFA's engine was unreliable." Sensationalism right there. Since the existence of the Item 30 is ignored, then the veracity of such a claim becomes suspect.

To tell you the truth, Indian media lives in the gutter. They don't present actual "quotes" like the western media does. They put everything in indirect speech and add their opinion to it along with the quote. I would really like to read or hear the actual quotes of the DCAS rather than this slipshod article.

And Shukla has an agenda of his own, so his credibility isn't all that great. Regardless, people will still read his articles, so he is not overly worried. Like Sayare already pointed out, Shukla is making a case for the F-35.

 

[gadeshi]

The article is an epic bullshit.
This colonel retired is a tank regiment officcer, how can he judge a completely different field???

 

[Kunal Biswas]

you have to read the article again, The Retd Col is a Journalist ..

But what really important in his article /Report, Follows >>

The IAF's deputy chief of air staff (DCAS), its top procurement official, declared the FGFA's engine was unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered, India's work share too low, and that the fighter's price would be exorbitant by the time it enters service.

The article is an epic bullshit.
This colonel retired is a tank regiment officcer, how can he judge a completely different field???

 

[sayareakd]

@Kunal sir i read the article now and i think Ajay has no idea about the FGFA. They are sayung it for long time that new engine will be used and not MKI upgrade. I wont mind buying 100-200 of these fighter or even more but i want them to give 1 billion USD to AMCA & another 1 billion to make new engine for amca with Kaveri team broken into two one will make Kaveri for LCA and other be given this task of making super cruise engine plus new group of people with fresh ideas to start this new engine. Now is the time to pump $$$$ to project if you want to win future wars.

 

[ninja85]

I think its best for India and IAF to invest more in domestic Industry with cooperation from different firms ..

it's the bottomline isn't it???

 

[p2prada]

@Kunal sir i read the article now and i think Ajay has no idea about the FGFA. They are sayung it for long time that new engine will be used and not MKI upgrade. I wont mind buying 100-200 of these fighter or even more but i want them to give 1 billion USD to AMCA & another 1 billion to make new engine for amca with Kaveri team broken into two one will make Kaveri for LCA and other be given this task of making super cruise engine plus new group of people with fresh ideas to start this new engine. Now is the time to pump $$$$ to project if you want to win future wars.

I think ADA has asked $2 Billion for AMCA. GTRE had initially asked $2.5 Billion for K-10. So, total expenditure will easily exceed $4.5 Billion for AMCA on a whole.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sir, I am not very much into the Col`s views but the IAF`s comment abt FGFA progress ..

We need to be on our own feet for that we need to have a better infrastructure before making anything ..

Funding that would be combine FGFA and MRCA money ..

@Kunal sir i read the article now and i think Ajay has no idea about the FGFA. They are sayung it for long time that new engine will be used and not MKI upgrade. I wont mind buying 100-200 of these fighter or even more but i want them to give 1 billion USD to AMCA & another 1 billion to make new engine for amca with Kaveri team broken into two one will make Kaveri for LCA and other be given this task of making super cruise engine plus new group of people with fresh ideas to start this new engine. Now is the time to pump $$$$ to project if you want to win future wars.

 

[Blackwater]

Half the funding by indians half the tech sharing.


why this kolaveri di??