Russians Give Indian Navy Big MiG-29K Induction Troubles

[abirbec04]

Hardly surprising anymore. Sources indicate that the MiG-29K induction experience is proving to be a real nuisance, with the Russians nitpicking over contractual provisions and delaying smooth operations at the Black Panthers squadron in Goa. I've been requested by my sources not to put down the precise nature of the problems, though suffice it to say that the Indian Navy is not in the least pleased with how the Russians are executing and following up on the K contract.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/12/russians-give-indian-navy-big-mig-29k.html

 

[A.V.]

Ok a honest question which country provides extra cover outside the contract the sad part is the russians are used to giving a lot of leeway on this and now when they are following the words on paper it becomes bad , is it ?
however induction problems stay with all major weapons and this report seems to be yet another propaganda driven funded by the ever famous $ gurus

 

[Yusuf]

Back to the same old problem, I really don't understand why Russia wants to finish of defense relations with india with such screw ups. MiG-35 surely will lose out now of the MRCA if it had no before if there really is a problem with 29k's induction. Also brighten up F-35s prospects in the future.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Guys aren't we reacting too much? Yes it feels stupid if one seller doesn't lives upto the promises and nothing is different here. But one question that comes to my mind, is it only Russians who create post sell nascences? BAE did created lot of trouble for HAL and IAF. Only god knows how will US behave when it wins or looses 126 deal.

Which country provides extra cover outside the contract the sad part is the russians are used to giving a lot of leeway on this and now when they are following the words on paper it becomes bad , is it ?

No one, but some do to their allies. Bharat is not a ally of Russia officially but surely a friend. Russians did sold us cheap and many of which no body was ready to. But then we also operated many substandard equipments and tolerated deadline extensions and other unprofessional behaviours. It was and is very much a game of mutual beneficiaries. If Russians are not ready behave like friends i.e help beyond something on paper(as you said) then how can Russians expect friendly attitude when selecting Russian weapons?

 

[A.V.]

Guys aren't we reacting too much? Yes it feels stupid if one seller doesn't lives upto the promises and nothing is different here. But one question that comes to my mind, is it only Russians who create post sell nascences? BAE did created lot of trouble for HAL and IAF. Only god knows how will US behave when it wins or looses 126 deal.


No one, but some do to their allies. Bharat is not a ally of Russia officially but surely a friend. Russians did sold us cheap and many of which no body was ready to. But then we also operated many substandard equipments and tolerated deadline extensions and other unprofessional behaviours. It was and is very much a game of mutual beneficiaries. If Russians are not ready behave like friends i.e help beyond something on paper(as you said) then how can Russians expect friendly attitude when selecting Russian weapons?

Rahul with the recent media credibility at stake you can judge yourself whats reported and whats not many similar western problems are filtered out at the root and dont even reach the publishing table and its a hard fact all this is to make a public opinion against and for - its just that simple case the delays and all the issues you have to look at the eyes of the the problem in the 90 s when a lot of things had to be met with lots of difficulty ,
also india has a treaty of friendship revised edition with russian if this is not alliance then i ask with what other countries does india have this kind of treaty except for nepal as far as i know , also i have personally seen the kinds of interaction between the russian and indian official at these defence meetings and the picture is such which is not what is projected on the media , both sides have such deep ties and mutual trust that it will take 50 years or something very drastic to change this and this is not the older generals or officers even the young have very high regards for each other and i hardly can imagine this kind of relationship exists between the services of other nations.

i can take a bet on this as i have seen and known things from the inner meet personally that what the image the media tries to potray about the russian weapons the truth is far from that -- thats why i call all this propaganda reporting check out how many $$$ bags might be floating around to report one and block other similar reports

 

[icecoolben]

Hope they don't execute the 30 follow on order. Withhold it till the Mig-29k problems are solved. If tejas naval version shows promise, just buy 30 re-engined tejas fighters in mk-1 configuration.

 

[kuku]

That MiG corp. is in a bad spot is no surprise, and this is a very complicated project, the quality requirements for a plane over sea are very stringent, they will have trouble following through. I expect more troubles ahead, even though it costs a lot the only solution is to get the entire tooling for the MiG-29K/29 and 35 into India and absolute in house production, otherwise be ready for Russian winter.

Russian planes are more and more like that beautiful and wild girlfriend, when you don't stay with her you miss all the loving(freedom to do what you like with the beauty), if you stay with her you end up crying about the little nitpicking and high maintenance.

 

[icecoolben]

Rahul with the recent media credibility at stake you can judge yourself whats reported and whats not many similar western problems are filtered out at the root and dont even reach the publishing table and its a hard fact all this is to make a public opinion against and for - its just that simple case the delays and all the issues you have to look at the eyes of the the problem in the 90 s when a lot of things had to be met with lots of difficulty ,
also india has a treaty of friendship revised edition with russian if this is not alliance then i ask with what other countries does india have this kind of treaty except for nepal as far as i know , also i have personally seen the kinds of interaction between the russian and indian official at these defence meetings and the picture is such which is not what is projected on the media , both sides have such deep ties and mutual trust that it will take 50 years or something very drastic to change this and this is not the older generals or officers even the young have very high regards for each other and i hardly can imagine this kind of relationship exists between the services of other nations.

i can take a bet on this as i have seen and known things from the inner meet personally that what the image the media tries to potray about the russian weapons the truth is far from that -- thats why i call all this propaganda reporting check out how many $$$ bags might be floating around to report one and block other similar reports

Though I'm not xenophobic or stereotype, I know for a fact Russians are generally more racist compared to western europeons and their armed forces very aggressive and brutal. What they say, do, conjole is in their interest. Mig corporation is a sinking ship, if no mig-35 win will be a sub contactor for Sukoi for eternity can't maintain mig-29k support once Russia retires them. For one Western countries own more responsibility for supply chain management compared to Russians since their operations are not governed by bureaucrats but professionals. I agree both foreign manufacturers have problems, the problems of support comes acute when there is little economic logic in supporting products at the end of their development cycle.

 

[A.V.]

That MiG corp. is in a bad spot is no surprise, and this is a very complicated project, the quality requirements for a plane over sea are very stringent, they will have trouble following through. I expect more troubles ahead, even though it costs a lot the only solution is to get the entire tooling for the MiG-29K/29 and 35 into India and absolute in house production, otherwise be ready for Russian winter.

Russian planes are more and more like that beautiful and wild girlfriend, when you don't stay with her you miss all the loving(freedom to do what you like with the beauty), if you stay with her you end up crying about the little nitpicking and high maintenance.

That mig was in trouble economically is a thing of the past post 2007 things have gone up and now worker payments and the many sick units are revived , you can see this from the fact that these 4 units of the mig 29k were supplied to india ahned of the stipulated timeframe in the contract ( many fail to mention this ).
secondly these were tested and flown on the kuznetsov by russian test pilots round 1 by mig pilots 2 nd by russian regular pilots 3 rd by indian test pilots - yet i say this when u incorporate new systems its always some minor issue, when we changed for vbulletin 3 to vbulletin 4 on dfi we encountered problems like never before and took us 69 months to get stabilized and we can now see how powerful vb4 is same can be said about this system its all the same everywhere

 

[A.V.]

Though I'm not xenophobic or stereotype, I know for a fact Russians are generally more racist compared to western europeons and their armed forces very aggressive and brutal. What they say, do, conjole is in their interest. Mig corporation is a sinking ship, if no mig-35 win will be a sub contactor for Sukoi for eternity can't maintain mig-29k support once Russia retires them. For one Western countries own more responsibility for supply chain management compared to Russians since their operations are not governed by bureaucrats but professionals. I agree both foreign manufacturers have problems, the problems of support comes acute when there is little economic logic in supporting products at the end of their development cycle.

about the brutal factor its inborn , the tough mentality is inborn with and refrects in the attitude but many fail to see , u cannot make an image form the reports , meet a russian on the street and see how friendly he/she is and how different they are fromt he rest of the whites , the racist notion is somewhat wrong yet somewhat correct in certain demographics within russia ,
about mig its not a sinking ship because this sinking ship , flying coffin all these are attributed by the western media without a basic approach because mig is now active and running under UAC new project 2016 is committed to mig with funds from the state and this is no abstract talk , also russian navy is changing its su33 to mig 29k , indian orders , orders from burma and more will keep mig busy till 2014 and they have their hands full thes eare the basic impressions that people forget

 

[icecoolben]

about the brutal factor its inborn , the tough mentality is inborn with and refrects in the attitude but many fail to see , u cannot make an image form the reports , meet a russian on the street and see how friendly he/she is and how different they are fromt he rest of the whites , the racist notion is somewhat wrong yet somewhat correct in certain demographics within russia ,
about mig its not a sinking ship because this sinking ship , flying coffin all these are attributed by the western media without a basic approach because mig is now active and running under UAC new project 2016 is committed to mig with funds from the state and this is no abstract talk , also russian navy is changing its su33 to mig 29k , indian orders , orders from burma and more will keep mig busy till 2014 and they have their hands full thes eare the basic impressions that people forget

U can't expect us to order 30 more Mig-29k essentially whose production would commence after 24 mig-29k for Russia. If the Su-27k could last only 25 years from 1992-2016 in naval version, the mig-29 which was built to be a cheaper alternative of lower procurement cost, easy replacement during wartime, too many engine changes during its lifetime, capability of RD-33 to withstand corrrosion the way F414 can is questionable, the plane has had structural faults that grounded the entire land fleet more than once which would be exaberated by salt water and the abysmal record of support with IAF.

the plane was ordered to get the boat for free and that basic deal itself has been proven to be a train wreck of problems. If someone could release these wikileaksski documents from the Russians embassies throughiut the world, the rot could be exposed. Mig is in no solid ground financially than the state of Somalia is, its order book is predominantly upgrading mig-29 that are still in thousands around the world. in the future 2020 and beyond it will be providing spares for mig-29 and mig-29k and manufacturing maybe wingtips for pakfa. How could u honestly expect us to cast our lot with this company namely Mikoyan guruveich ??

 

[Rahul Singh]

AV. No doubt there exists an anti-Russia pro-US lobby in every section of administration and media. Recent news was eye opener for few, most of us knew for sure that Media in India is a corporate business where profit is every thing and to them it doesn't matter if source is black or white or even grey. Notwithstanding Russia has committed some mistakes and Aircraft Carrier project was a PR disaster. Here i am not saying, it was wrong to ask for more money to meet escalated requirements and inflation. But then who should be blamed if Russia fails to calculate right cost at the time of agreement? There existed a time when people said Russia is actually blackmailing and no body had the counter because escalated figures where saying like initial figure of 700million was a trap. Feeling of getting cheated creates an environment where you yourself let the things deteriorate and it becomes hell when some are seeking opportunity to make large out of it. For Russia to stay as largest arms supplier to Indian defence forces it will have learn to be good at PR.

 

[JBH22]

why bother to blame the Russians we are the one to be blame. The F*** Gorshkov idea was itself crap before its induction it gave us so much problem wonder what that tin can will give us more as headache after its induction

 

[anoop_mig25]

well however complain about russians should provide whats problem with MIG-29K? well AV u are supporting russians god job . i like to point out one thing since india doesnt has more money our policy makers use russians toys over above their lifecycle . i think no country in world does this

 

[Tshering22]

I still don't believe that this problem is as complicated as projected. Russia has delivered the first few Ks to us much before the timeline and naturally due to our own procedures to a large extent, there remains a lot of problems to be solved. We need to make our procurements and inductions process first clear. Non-qualified babus who enter government on the basis of quota system and who cannot even articulate a proper professional contract are running different ministries. What else can be the reason that we ALWAYS run into induction troubles with EVERY country be it Russia, Britain, France or some other nation?

The MKIs had absolutely no issues in joining IAF and in fact the follow on orders for the jet came in because of its wonderful timing, fine quality and affordable maintenance.

I think MOD needs some fresh graduates in professional degrees instead of old, quota-entry kind geezers. Though not of ministerial level, I have had the opportunity to see a government contract-- it is utter rubbish, doesn't specify contents or requirements clearly, has a dozen numerical codes and section names that have little relevance and most of the time are circulated within the government bodies to keep rectifying them causing delays.

 

[civfanatic]

Though I'm not xenophobic or stereotype, I know for a fact Russians are generally more racist compared to western europeons and their armed forces very aggressive and brutal. What they say, do, conjole is in their interest.

What is this yaar, the first part of your sentence contradicts the next! :happy_2:

 

[kuku]

That mig was in trouble economically is a thing of the past post 2007 things have gone up and now worker payments and the many sick units are revived , you can see this from the fact that these 4 units of the mig 29k were supplied to india ahned of the stipulated timeframe in the contract ( many fail to mention this ).
secondly these were tested and flown on the kuznetsov by russian test pilots round 1 by mig pilots 2 nd by russian regular pilots 3 rd by indian test pilots - yet i say this when u incorporate new systems its always some minor issue, when we changed for vbulletin 3 to vbulletin 4 on dfi we encountered problems like never before and took us 69 months to get stabilized and we can now see how powerful vb4 is same can be said about this system its all the same everywhere

I dont see them with future orders to keep the lines open throughout the planes (MiG-29K) carrier, and when the lines are shut, the tooling sold, we will have troubles.
The MiG-29K is yet to prove its service availability rates in the harsh ocean environment and its not easy to make a plane to do that, much more than a land based plane. The real test starts when the aircraft carrier comes into service more problems found and solved, even the Su-33 has had a very limited flying experience from the Russian carrier.
They have to innovate to have a future, being out of absolute economic disaster is fine, however there is a lot more to be done if they wish to become a successful company. If we do buy the MiG-35 and get purchase the complete tooling for the plane and its various components then i will feel a lot more assured about MiG.

So you are saying that in the original contract, the MiG-29Ks were supposed to be delievered in 2010 and the order completed by 2012, and we were supposed to get the carrier by 2007?

 

[thakur_ritesh]

Avi,

i am not too sure russia realizes it or not but india is fast changing and so they also have to change in keeping with the times. as i have said many times before, russia needs to get more media savvy. can you imagine a french president visit gets more media coverage than what a russian president gets even though this all might be paid up coverage but the average dude out there doesnt realize this, for that chap out there what really matters is what all is being shown on the tv screen and what all those paid up analysists are analysing. russia is just not present in that space.

yes there is a concerted effort to tarnish russian image since at stake is 100s of billions of dollars of which everyone wants a bite of and most of all the americans and all these groups will go to any lengths is doing so. russia needs to play along as the rules of the game change. sure enough russia has a voice where it matters the most and considering that they certainly dont need to press the panic button, i dont even think they are but beyond those circles, there certainly has to be an effort to reach out the larger audience, else today there are few of these chaps doing all these negative write-ups but then there could very well be a huge number of these people out to paint russians as the villains in another few years and this relationship could reach a point where we might have leadership which might start getting suspicious of the intention of the russians, thankfully so far the armed forces strongly rally behind the russians.

before our relationship hits that rock, which is what the real intent is of certain vested interests, russians need to have people is media who do write-ups on their side of the story and expose the rivals. imagine india pays near 5b usd for 10 c17s and there is no one talking about it but if a ins vikramditya costs india 2.35b usd it becomes a talking point for a couple of years as if india was to get all poor because of that deal, a highly superior Su30MKI at 85m usd gets all the negative publicity but no one ever talks about the technologies going in, russia does need to change its stance on the media front.

 

[A.V.]

ok will answer one by one to all the posts in reverse order - ritesh first

. yes i told that russia is not media friendly and its inborn in them and they are losing out on the public popularity but the hard fact is this however much the public cry and make noises the truth is decisions and future prospects are not based on public opinion if that was the case then you would be seeing US only selling weapons to india .

secondly you have to look in when you say india is changing -- yes india is an economic power house , yes they have the money , they are making strides in R D yes true but very few realize how much russia has changed , mainly people of the older gen see russia as an broken SU the new think its a torn out place but when it comes to world matters and world politics russia still stands in space where indian has yet not reached
i will give you an example see the missile defence crisis - the US back stepped , see the kyrz revolution , see the poland turn around , compare this to indian stand how they talked baout headly issue , how they run to the us to ask pakistan to stop exporting terror , all this shows a fundemental difference and this is although india is more economically strong , although it has big market it still is not where it aspires to be and to reach that level it needs its friend russia to help out -- just imagine this indias security council seat can it go with all the support from US if russia dosent wish to support it , think it this way

secondly the change in russia its not shown in the open media in india very few those who have travelled to russia post 2000 will tell you what the public opinion in india is how much wrong , having the greatest deposits of the most strategic resources OIL. FRESH WATER , WOOD , NATURAL GAS -- is it less in anyway , the future for india to grow it needs energy indias growth potential will need rich energy supply , will the US give its share of energy ever , , how long will the saudis support india when they openly aid pakistan .

the truth is this post 2030 india can survive its growth and dominance only if it has secure energy supplies and for that only one nation now only one can provide that and its Russia the CAR region rich in energy supplies also is russian influence zone , no nato or EU ally will every bend towards india , History is proff and the africa is taken over by China almost.
if leaders in india learn from mistakes they will realize that the energy supply holds the key for future indian growtha nd in this filed next 100 years nobody is replacing this



next this russia realizes that its sitting on a gold bed to give you the example if tomorrow things start turning sour between india and russia this will be the scenerio :-

1. veto indian moves on political forums .
2. Partner chinese growth :- SCO india and energy rich CAR is out of any thoughts
3. pakistan gets the energy supplies and weapons
4. Influence EU to push to levels of anti india campaign ( they can do it just ask poland , ukraine how it feels to be be in the cold and dark

bottom line the position where russia is in it does not need media image to boost it knows the handicap india has even though its economic powerhouse , the US , French needs the media they need to increse indian influence appear to be friends because they have limited to offer india for russia its unlimited offerings.

 

[A.V.]

I dont see them with future orders to keep the lines open throughout the planes (MiG-29K) carrier, and when the lines are shut, the tooling sold, we will have troubles.
The MiG-29K is yet to prove its service availability rates in the harsh ocean environment and its not easy to make a plane to do that, much more than a land based plane. The real test starts when the aircraft carrier comes into service more problems found and solved, even the Su-33 has had a very limited flying experience from the Russian carrier.
They have to innovate to have a future, being out of absolute economic disaster is fine, however there is a lot more to be done if they wish to become a successful company. If we do buy the MiG-35 and get purchase the complete tooling for the plane and its various components then i will feel a lot more assured about MiG.

So you are saying that in the original contract, the MiG-29Ks were supposed to be delievered in 2010 and the order completed by 2012, and we were supposed to get the carrier by 2007?

the mig 29 has limitations andits true and nobody is denying , even i would say its not the best int he business there is nothing to deny or brag about it. the point is this that mig29 has been chosen by the russians and the indian navy after a lot of evaluation and its induction needs time and smooth transition is ever the case .

secondly yes mig is out of financial troubles they and their subsidiaries can now afford a lot more , ye sthey need to innovate but you are forgetting even the worst of western critics has never put a question mark on the capability of mig to innovate , there was a question mark over its economic survival and if its met and resolved the question of innovationa nd starting new projects was never in question by the worst of the anti mig people

about the contact the less said the better , the indians knew so well that the ship wont be ready even by 2010 when they first saw the state the yard was in the 90 s and yes there were a lot more in the contract than just the ship and planes , even the huge rouble debt was linked to this contract and did u ever hear of any akula contract outside this then how come chakra is in indian colors , whats the amount india paid for its lease ? where are these papers ? all this what india got was a win win for both , leave the media they are fed by corruption
















added later :- In the heart of moscow boeing has a design unit for its commercial and fighter projects solely on russian designers which it employs from the erstwhile aviation companies and this is since 2000 work is going on , even specualtions are on that some of the major designs and projects get helpful inputs form this design stable - about innovation its never a question