Russian Victory Day Celebrations

Ray

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What I mean is that Russia has turned a day that is supposed to remember the victims of war into an event to show its "power". It is right to boycot that.
Victory Parades are not for remembering victims. It is undertaken to celebrate the victory over the enemy that dared to wage war.

Memorial Services and laying wreaths is to remember the martyrs of the war.

In the UK, there was a fly past of Lancaster Bombers and Spitfires (famed WWII war machines). Was that to remember the victims of war? If so, how?

Or was it to pay tribute to the heroes of the RAF?

One must not conflate issues to pander to one's biases.
 

jouni

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Symbolic Relic?

While much attention has been showered on the T-14 Armata, it is important to note that the armour retinue was led by the venerable T-34. This is a symbolism of the might of Soviet engineering. Unlike the German PanzerKampfWagen IV, which was great on paper, but largely useless and sometimes a liability in the battlefield, the T-34 is the one that actually showed what military technology and the underlying philosophy should be like. In other words, at the time of war, ditch the BMW and go for the UAZ.

Here are some pictures of the T-34:






As good as the T-34 was, the crucial thing was the numbers: 60000 made during the war. I would not count out German tanks: one Finnish guy recruited to SS Panzer and commandeered a Panzer V had 34 kills by himself of T34s. Also some individual Finns armed with Panzerfaust claimed a lot of kills against T 34s. Of course we used them both ;)

The same design philosophy stands: Leo 2 is designed to take out at least 3 Russian tanks before being knocked out. Of course we know that the real number is not three ;)
 
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jouni

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I might be in our mutual neighbour late June probably. Guess Finland can be seen across Lake Ladoga then. ;) Consumption in St.P could be as costly as Paris according to a local (years ago).

Such V-day celebrations, parades alike could also be a good promotion for foreign visitors, apart from memories of past ordeals and glories. Yes Germany meantime is great indeed in overcoming old woes - Auferstanden aus Ruinen.
Enjoy your stay at Piter. It should not be to expensive, rouble is quite weak and because of lack of western tourists the price levels are down. That city is maybe the most beautiful I have visited. Remember to visit Hermitage, Peterhof, Artillery museum, Canal cruises etc...

Then you can hop on to Allegro fast train and in 3 hours you are in Helsinki and can admire all the statues of Lenin and Czar the Russians themselves knocked down in Piter, but are still standing in Helsinki.
 

Ray

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As good as the T-34 was, the crucial thing was the numbers: 60000 made during the war. I would not count out German tanks: one Finnish guy recruited to SS Panzer and commandeered a Panzer V had 34 kills by himself of T34s. Also some individual Finns armed with Panzerfaust claimed a lot of kills against T 34s.

The same design philosophy stands: Leo 2 is designed to take out at least 3 Russian tanks before being knocked out. Of course we know that the real number is not three ;)

Just a recap to put the issue in the correct perspective.

For the attack on Kursk, Germany had grouped 900,000 soldiers in the region, 10,000 artillery guns, 2,700 tanks and 2,000 aircraft. About 1/3rd of all Germany’s military strength was concentrated in the area. Elite Luftwaffe units were ordered there.

The Russians had also placed vast numbers of men and equipment in the Kursk bulge. 1.3 million soldiers were based there, 20,000 artillery pieces, 3,600 tanks and 2,400 planes. The Russians had guessed where the Germans would try to use their tanks in depth – and placed a large number of their anti-tank artillery guns there.

Germany started her attack at 04.30 with an artillery barrage. A tank and infantry attack started at 05.30 once air cover had arrived. The main thrust contained 500 tanks; heavy tanks at the front, supported by medium ones behind with infantry behind these. The Germans tried to break through on four occasions. They gained 6 miles of land in the first 24 hours of fighting but at a cost. 25,000 men had been killed or wounded, 200 tanks and self-propelled guns had been lost and 200 aircraft. A similar pattern occurred over the next few days. Ferocious German attacks were met with ferocious Russian defence. By July 10th, the German IX Army had lost 2/3rds of its tanks. Even the mighty Tiger tanks were falling victim to the Russians anti-tank guns. Russian tank commanders also quickly learned that if they attacked a Tiger side-on, its armour was thinner and more vulnerable.

The greatest tank battle of World War Two place on July 12th. In total, 1,500 tanks were involved at Prokhorovka, some 50 miles to the south-east of Kursk. By nightfall, the Germans had not achieved the desired breakthrough. They had lost another 350 tanks and 10,000 men. The strength of the Germans in the south of the Kursk salient had been broken and the Russians launched a major counter-offensive. By July 23rd, the Germans had been pushed back to where they had stated their attack. The initiative now lay with the Russians who had a forward momentum to their advantage. The Germans were literally on the back foot.

On July 12th, the Russians launched another counter-offensive in the north of the salient in an effort to relieve Orel. They outnumbered the Germans two to one in all areas. Unable to call in reinforcements from their men fighting in the south, the Germans were unable to hold off the Russian offensive. By July 19th, the Russians had pushed forward 45 miles. The Russian Air Force ensured that the Luftwaffe was incapable of giving the army the support it needed. Faced with the collapse of its forces in Orel, General Model asked Hitler's permission to withdraw to the Hagen Line. Model warned Hitler that the Wehrmacht faced another Stalingrad if the withdrawal was not allowed. The German Army in and around Orel pulled back 60 miles in an effort to regroup. However, by the time the withdrawal had occurred, German troops were exhausted after constant harassment from the air by the Russian Air Force. By August 5th 1943, Orel was back in the hands of the Russians.

The German retreat was severely hindered by partisans who destroyed many miles of rail line which ensured that train engines piled up at rail heads, making them an easy target for the Russian Air Force.

A similar situation occurred in the southern sector of the salient. Here the German Army was facing a formidable enemy that had the advantage of being on the offensive. In this sector, the Germans had 300,000 men and about 600 tanks. The Russians had nearly 1 million men in the region, including reserves, and many more tanks. Their counter-offensive in this sector started on August 3rd and two days later Russian forces entered Belgorod. The partisans who operated in this area derailed more than 1,000 train loads of troops in August - a major factor to explain why the Germans could not move their men around with ease. Morale among the German troops who fought in this sector plummeted. On August 13th, the Russians had broken through the outer defences of the city of Kharkov and by August 23rd, the city was liberated. The retaking of the city of Kharkov is seen as the end of the Battle of Kursk.

The Battle of Kursk was to have major consequences for the Germans. It was the last major offensive they launched in Russia. Now, their forces only faced retreat and attempting to stop the onslaught of the Red Army. The material damage done to the German Army was massive - 500,000 men were killed, wounded or missing; vast amounts of armour had been lost.

Therefore, what of the German tank philosophy beyond giving you a 'feel good' feeling and a false bravado?
 

Khagesh

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Germans had changed the date of start of the Battle to July 5, 1943. Bad move. July 5, is a lucky day for all people fighting for their motherland and a ghor unlucky day for all worthless invaders. I was born on that day (different year though but no difference otherwise). :D

"The Battle of Kursk was to have major consequences for the Germans. It was the last major offensive they launched in Russia. Now, their forces only faced retreat and attempting to stop the onslaught of the Red Army."
 

jouni

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Germans had changed the date of start of the Battle to July 5, 1943. Bad move. July 5, is a lucky day for all people fighting for their motherland and a ghor unlucky day for all worthless invaders. I was born on that day (different year though but no difference otherwise). :D
How could famous German Abwehr miss such a crucial factor? Unforgettable
 

rock127

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Good to see Indian soldiers at Moscow square.

@jouni : All of your frustration is turning out to be more pathetic and funny against Russia in all of your posts.You could not tolerate the Russians celebrating their Victory Day and perhaps take it as Russians celebrating the defeat of Finland.For you it's like Finnish Defeat Day. :D
 

amoy

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Enjoy your stay at Piter. It should not be to expensive, rouble is quite weak and because of lack of western tourists the price levels are down. That city is maybe the most beautiful I have visited. Remember to visit Hermitage, Peterhof, Artillery museum, Canal cruises etc...

Then you can hop on to Allegro fast train and in 3 hours you are in Helsinki and can admire all the statues of Lenin and Czar the Russians themselves knocked down in Piter, but are still standing in Helsinki.
My route is likely to be Peter first then Moscow by rail. Spiritually and culturally Russia is part of Europe. Bitter pages will be turned over n EU and Russia IMO will resume normal relations when the dust is off. Merkel is making efforts for a solution as both sides r so close in need of each other.

~Tapa talks: Orange is the new black.~
 

jouni

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Good to see Indian soldiers at Moscow square.

@jouni : All of your frustration is turning out to be more pathetic and funny against Russia in all of your posts.You could not tolerate the Russians celebrating their Victory Day and perhaps take it as Russians celebrating the defeat of Finland.For you it's like Finnish Defeat Day. :D
Maybe I am pathetic and yes, Finland in a sense lost the war. But my dislike for the military parade came after I visited Victory day parade where there were no Armatas or T34s, but 30 000 people marching in silence and carrying photos of their relatives lost in the war. It made me think, I calculated that Finland lost 80000 lives in two wars in five years. Russia lost that amount IN FOUR DAYS in their fight against Germany. That is a terrible human cost for Russian people.

Despite their victory, they lack far behind us "losers" in all aspects of development. I wish Russia would have developed like Germany to open and prosperous country. Now they are decades behind us and the directions seems to be even further down. It is just sad from human point of view.
 

jouni

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Russian experts believe that Hitlers attack to Russia was a pre-emptive strike.
 

VivekShah

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Russian experts believe that Hitlers attack to Russia was a pre-emptive strike.
The Soviet dissident Suvorov has been debunked by most reputable historians such as the American D. Glantz, British Bellamy, the Israeli Gorodetsky and so on. Suvorov (real name Viktor Rezun) relies on Cold War propaganda and is courted by many eastern European Russophobes who want to paint themselves as victims in order to justify mass spontaneous atrocities against Jews, Soviet partisans, and Russian people in general. The Soviets were bad, no doubt about it, but to equate them with the Hitlerites is one of the worst pornographies of the 20th century.
 

pmaitra

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As good as the T-34 was, the crucial thing was the numbers: 60000 made during the war. I would not count out German tanks: one Finnish guy recruited to SS Panzer and commandeered a Panzer V had 34 kills by himself of T34s. Also some individual Finns armed with Panzerfaust claimed a lot of kills against T 34s. Of course we used them both ;)

The same design philosophy stands: Leo 2 is designed to take out at least 3 Russian tanks before being knocked out. Of course we know that the real number is not three ;)
The T-34 was in the Victory Day Parade. The Leo was not. So, there goes your off topic hypothesis.

Now, coming to that Finnish guy who allegedly got 34 kills (T-34 and 34 kills? Hmmm), I don't buy that.

Use Occam's Razor. Use a large sample size, and it is indisputable that T-34 > PanzerKampfWagen IV.
 

sgarg

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I am afraid that WW-3 will not be decided by conventional weapons.

While Russia obviously lacks in conventional weapons, it has near parity in unconventional weapons.

Russia is not as weak or disadvantaged as is made out in American propaganda.

Russia + China is greater than Europe + USA + Canada in area. Australia is inconsequential in a real world war scenario.

Armata tank is not important. Russia is able to do what it is doing in Ukraine as it has options. Russia has enough offensive weapons to blunt out any offensive from NATO.
 

sgarg

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The parade in Moscow is a reminder that Russia continues to be a major power in the world.

There will be more alignments in future that will favour Russia. The agreements with Argentina and Iran are significant due to access Russia gets to ports and other infrastructure. Argentina is specially important as it can be source of grain and meat.
 

pmaitra

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So, what part of the Victory Day Parade did you guys like the best?

What I liked the most in this particular order:
  1. President of India wearing a flair made from Saint George's Ribbon, which is also the symbol of Russian Military Valour, and is used by the NovoRossiyan milita.
  2. The Indian soldiers, who marched brilliantly, and stood out as the best decorated, in my opinion, amongst all the participating contingents.
  3. The T-34 leading the armour columns.
  4. The T-14 Armata platform, for which we all eagerly waited.
  5. The KamAZ 6x6 Typhoon.
  6. The Tupolev-160 flyby.
  7. The MAZ-7917 truck carrying the Topol-M ICBM.
 

Khagesh

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The Soviet dissident Suvorov has been debunked by most reputable historians such as the American D. Glantz, British Bellamy, the Israeli Gorodetsky and so on. Suvorov (real name Viktor Rezun) relies on Cold War propaganda and is courted by many eastern European Russophobes who want to paint themselves as victims in order to justify mass spontaneous atrocities against Jews, Soviet partisans, and Russian people in general. The Soviets were bad, no doubt about it, but to equate them with the Hitlerites is one of the worst pornographies of the 20th century.
The moment I read the 3 words (jouni+Suvorov+pre empt) I knew its a propaganda piece.

This Rezun guy is doing a Nehru-Gandhi styled adoption of a father, by calling himself an Suvorov.

Alexander Suvorov (no relation to Victor Suvorov) was a Great Russian General, never defeated, simple man, largely apolitical and ultimately recognized for his genius even by his detractors. I don't read much, formally, by way of hitting the books but I would like to read the book written by this General. Always helps to read a professional talking about his job.

I don't know why people mess around with names to lend themselves some residual credibility. Don't they realize this will only discredit them and whatever they stand for, the moment they are discovered.
 

jouni

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I have Saint Georges Ribbon, which I got from my friends before parade. I got to admit that on the VC day I felt non of the anti west propaganda that is so common here.
 

jouni

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The T-34 was in the Victory Day Parade. The Leo was not. So, there goes your off topic hypothesis.

Now, coming to that Finnish guy who allegedly got 34 kills (T-34 and 34 kills? Hmmm), I don't buy that.

Use Occam's Razor. Use a large sample size, and it is indisputable that T-34 > PanzerKampfWagen IV.
It was Panzer V, not IV
 

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