Russia to help Pakistan build N-power plants

Discussion in 'Pakistan' started by A.V., Apr 3, 2009.

  1. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    Sir we lack the requisite skills tech and infrastructure. And a matter of policy.
    Though it is not that we have not learnt from or reverse engineered any tech.

    US doesn't even authorise its weapons to be used at times Russians, French and Israelis are way more liberal than that.
    Russia has been more the liberal with us than any other, sharing top-secret tech which took decades in r&d and billions in investment, is not what every one is comfortable with always. Again at times it is less about ToT and more about our ability to assimilate & utilize that tech.
     
  2. Pintu

    Pintu New Member

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    It's a fact , LF , but have we with us the tech for the Engine transferred by the Russians, As some of our Scientists argued that Russsians are not giving TOT for engines of BrahMos, some days earlier. If it is done then well and good.
     
  3. johnee

    johnee Elite Member Elite Member

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    singhji,
    are we developing that tech and infrastructure then?
     
  4. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    what's the point now ? We are going for joint developments for eg. Barak SAM, Pak-Fa, Brahmos, Maitri and what ever we needed to make is made or soon to be operationalised for eg ATV, Tejas, IAC, Sats, Nirbhay, Brahmos-2 etc.
    Cold war's finished, we are friendly with all, we throw money get tech no threat of sanctions or being bullied by others.
     
  5. johnee

    johnee Elite Member Elite Member

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    but we still do BUY some equipment, dont we? wouldnt getting that tech be useful in long run?
     
  6. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    johnee many countries will give a slice but no one will give the whole cake, but we will bake one eventually.
     
  7. Pintu

    Pintu New Member

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    Singhji, I have not mentioned the Uncle Sam,as liberals here, I agree with you that we have enjoyed with Russians a relationship that neither country have enjoyed before hand, but in past we had their products licensed built and also the tech transferred, but Singhji, assimilation and utilisation of tech comes only after the tech transferred totally.That is the main reason as per your logic , the Indian MiG -29 , line is in service, compared to Russian MiG-29s most of them were being grounded. This is because we were assimilated with MiG-29 Techs. However, now a days the Russians are little bit conservative regarding the TOT.
     
  8. Pintu

    Pintu New Member

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    I think in case of BrahMos they were for JV, but were refusing TOT.
     
  9. Pintu

    Pintu New Member

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    Jhonny, you have reminded me about Ajit and Devil.
     
  10. johnee

    johnee Elite Member Elite Member

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    exactly. reason why we SHOULD reverse engineer.
    no one will give the cake, so we need to learn some way.
     
  11. johnee

    johnee Elite Member Elite Member

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    pintu,
    hmm.....who is Ajit and Devil?
     
  12. Pintu

    Pintu New Member

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    Ajit and Devil missile was past example.
     
  13. Pintu

    Pintu New Member

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    Jhonny HAL Ajeet,(sorry I mis spelled the name) is the upgraded version Folland Gnat which was our backbone of winning the 1971 war, Ajeet was based upon Folland Gnat. First flew in 1976. According to wiki 89 were built including to upgraded Folland Gnat, Entered service in 1977 , Ajeet retired on 1991.

    Project Devil, was Reverse Engineered on SA-2 , though the project shelved latter, this missile came om Handy during the development of I think Prithvi Missile.
     
  14. pyromaniac

    pyromaniac Founding Member

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    The problem with that alliance would be that India would then be viewed as Anti-American. You see, even 20 years after the fall of the USSR, the world is still more or less divided into a form of Pro-American and Pro-Soviet. India took a gamble in that it could have healthy relations with both Russia and America and our govt. might have even envisioned positioning India as a mediator or sorts...someone who can bridge this every growing gap between Russia and USA.
    With that said, Russia cant really jerk us around too much because hey, we have a 150billion dollar tender for new nuclear reactors and by god that is a hugeeeee amount of money. Pakistan cant even dream about investing that sort of money into its infrastructure.
    The simple fact is that India is not overly happy with either Russia or American in fields such as defense and technical projects; stemming from the recent bungles that have been committed. India views France and other European powers as firmer and more safe options and so Russia has to expand their market and start looking for new cash sources. Now that fact that Pakistan is bankrupt really wouldn't matter because at the end of the day, Russia is still gonna get paid. I hope for Pakistan's sake that Russia doesn't pull a gorshov :)
     
  15. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    There are issues with T90 armour too, but lets go deeper, Kanchan armour now being improved by Israelis is expect to be better than the T90s armour. India is developing the scramjet of Brahmos-2. Here we already have the necessary expertise, ToT for these products is to allow domestic production to keep costs low, allow for local upgrades, and keep production free of vagaries.
    Similarly, Refusal of tech transfer to overhaul/manufacture saturn engines of MKI's is a major issue for us.

    Well is it better to buy equipment than reinvent the wheel all over again. Really depends on the tech and equipment. India should concentrate on our core competencies and go for jt development or off the shelf purchases from nations where we lack expertise.

    Licensed production is different from Tech transfer. Licensed production helps to keep costs low, delivery times tight, etc. You don't need to know the tech to license produce. IIRC India never specifically paid for tech transfer(deep) and whatever tech that was passed was due to the generosity of the Soviet.

    It is only recently that we started insisting for ToT, to help bring our domestic industry and capability up to date and to keep foreign dependence post purchase minimal.

    Even if Russia transfers complete(deep) tech doesn't mean we have the ability to assimilate and utilize that tech.

    Russian Mig issue is different from ours. I disagree, IAF did well to keep Mig29s flying as quality spares were hard to comeby post Soviet collapse. Necessity here was the mother of invention not tech transfer. Though we had the ability to manufacture and overhaul Kilmov engines.

    PS: IIRC Russia offered us jt production righter of Mig-29 which Congress govt refused.
     
  16. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    Land of the GODS - "Dev Bhomi".
    singh said it in that one sentence.


    russia has too much at stake to let go its relationship with india in trying to cozy up to pakistan, and i am sure the russians can not be as short sighted as most of us here would like to believe. leave alone pakistan with which russia has had its share of historical misunderstandings, they dont even trust the chinese completely and as prc grows more in stature russia is going to be that much more itchy and russia would have that many more reasons to have strategic relations with india.


    india on its part and especially the indian diplomatic and political class believes they have a lot to gain by having good relations with the US and rightfully so for one thing has to be clearly understood that even in these economically volatile climate there is only one super power which as of date stands unchallenged and will remain so in at least the foreseeable future. people quite conveniently forget that it was only because of the US that we are able to do nuke deals freely around the globe or do contracts on sourcing of uranium which in the distant past seemed too much of a dream to even think about. mind you there has been a change in the mindset of the world with which india gets spoken at the global level, yes credit has to go to the economic stalwarts of the country but it was US that also helped us scale these heights and the reference that is given to us these days in no more in the regional context but the term used is a global power and we need to understand that all this would not have been possible only with russia which has lost its glory with the dismantle of the USSR.


    interests are the permanent friends of any nation and in no way has india got into the US led block in any which way, guess what even after massive resistance from pakistan, US is now officially recognising the importance of india in the afgan conflict at a time when pakistan plays a pivotal role on the US led WoT and with this happening india is still able to engage both iran and russia. india is not there to oblige any one country be it even the russians, the sooner they realise the better for them for directly at stake is their defence industry and i am sure if they start showing their backside to us then they would not get another india which not only presents opportunities in the defence field, but as we grow more in stature there will be a lot at stake in terms of stragtegic influence and also in the indian economy which by some estimates would be second to prc some where between 2040-50, does the russian federation want to miss out on all those opportunities, i seriously doubt that happening.


    it has to be understood that interests are based on furthering your agenda by making use of the others and clearly today it is in our interest to have good cordial relations with both russia and the US and that is precisely what the indian think tank is doing.
     
  17. johnee

    johnee Elite Member Elite Member

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    ritesh,
    the US that helped india get into NSG was bush's US. in bush era, US was friendly with us, even consulted us about the afghan and pak situation.
    but from the time obama has come, none of his policies have given any gain to india. infact, he talks about CTBT, curbs H1-B visa, gives MILITARY aid to pak, asks us to withdraw army from OUR border.......etc. he is a disaster.

    in bush era, there was dehyphanetion of india and pak.
    in obama era, there is a double hyphenation of afghan-india-pak.

    when bush refused to come between india and pak, and dealt with us as two different nations. obama, on the other hand, has linked kashmir, terrorism and afghan issue, basically accepting the pak line.

    in bush era, US' WOT was beneficial to us.
    in obama era, US' WOT is obstructing OUR WOT.
     
  18. EnlightenedMonk

    EnlightenedMonk Member of The Month JULY 2009 Senior Member

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    Totally agree... please don't try and link the US policy toward India during the Bush period and during the current period...

    Upto now, Obama hasn't done anything that will make me sit up and take notice, leave alone jump over the moon as I did during the Bush era when we got the nuclear deal...

    Yesterday's Obama-Singh meet seemed quite a charade. Nothing concrete came out of it (as expected) and it was so much sweet talk that I could hardly believe it.

    And, one point that most of the media missed out was something I did pick up on. During the one-on-one meetings, Manmohan was the last leader that Obama met. Now, this could be a mere coincidence except for the fact of a similar fiasco a couple of months ago when Manmohan was the last leader that Obama spoke to.

    Now, I don't want to sound pessimistic or anti-Obama, but these two incidents are just indicative of which way the US is heading after Obama took over...
     
  19. johnee

    johnee Elite Member Elite Member

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    ^^
    good observation.
     
  20. EnlightenedMonk

    EnlightenedMonk Member of The Month JULY 2009 Senior Member

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    Now, I think that the level of co-operation between Russia and Pakistan might increase slightly to make up for the losses that Russia faces in the Indian market, but I don't think Pakistan will get anything significant out of Russia in the military field.

    For one, Russia doesn't want cheap copied products of frontline equipment floating around the world market to dent its chances further with other countries. So, Pakistan's closeness to China would prevent that.

    Also, secondly, Russia wants hot cash. Pakistan isn't exactly awash with money and can only give debt in return to Russia.

    So, the Russians might use Pakistan to peddle off some tech which China can already give them anyway, apart from that, I'm sure nothing frontline or state of the art will find its way to anywhere near the periphery of Pakistan...
     

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