Russia Supplies Offensive Weapons to China

RAM

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Russia is resuming the supply of advanced weapon platforms to China in a move that may have implications for India.


At the end of last year, Russia concluded a framework agreement with China for the sale of four Amur-1650 diesel submarines. In January it signed another intergovernmental agreement for the supply of Russia's latest Su-35 long-range fighter planes.

If the deals go through, it will be for the first time in a decade that Russia has delivered offensive weapons to China.

It will also mark the first time that Russia has supplied China with more powerful weapon platforms compared with Russian-built systems India has in its arsenals. In the past, the opposite was the rule.

For example, the Su-30MKK jet fighters Russia sold to China were no match for the Su-30MKIs supplied to India at about the same time. The Chinese planes had an inferior radar and without the thrust vectoring engines the Indian version had.

This time the situation looks reversed. The Amur-1650 submarine is far more silent and powerful than the Kilo-class submarines the Indian Navy has in its inventory. India's Su-30MKI will be no match for China's Su-35 which is powered by a higher thrust engine and boasts a more sophisticated radar, avionics and weapons, according to a leading Russian military expert, Konstantin Makienko.

China's acquisition of the Su-35 will also question the wisdom of India's plan to buy the French Rafale, the expert said.

"The sale of Su-35s to China will shoot down the value of the Rafale for India," Mr. Makienko, who is deputy head of Russia's top defence think tank, Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, told The Hindu.

"The Rafale will stand no chance against China's Su-35," the expert explained. "The Su-35's Irbis radar has more than twice the detection range of the Rafale's Thales RBE2, and will lock onto its target well before the Russian plane becomes visible for a retaliatory strike. The 117S engines of the Su-35 are also far more powerful than the Rafale's Snecma M88."

The Russian Air Force is just beginning to take delivery of the new aircraft and China may become the first country to import it. The relatively small number of Su-35s China plans to buy, 24, should not deceive anyone, Mr. Makienko said. China followed the same buying pattern for the Su-27, initially ordering 24 planes and ending up with more than 200 Su-27s and its licence-built version, the J-11.

The supply to China of more advanced weapon platforms than those available to India appears to contradict some basic geopolitical realities. India remains Russia's most trusted partner whose defence requirements have never been refused. By contrast, Russia has always been apprehensive of the Chinese dragon and suspicious of its intentions towards resource-rich and population-poor Siberia.

Calls for restraint
There is consensus in the Russian strategic community that Moscow should exercise maximum restraint in providing China with advanced military technologies. Experts were shocked to find out that Chinese engineers had mastered the production of clones of most weapon systems cash-strapped Russia supplied to China in the 1990s and early 2000s.

Russian arms sales to China plummeted in recent years as China switched to domestic production, while Moscow became more cautious in offering Beijing cutting-edge technologies. Not only did China illegally copy Russian weapon systems, but it also began to export those undercutting Russian sales of higher-priced original platforms.

Some experts even called for a complete halt to arms sales to China, arguing that demographic pressures and a growing need of resources may one day push China to turn Russian weapons against Russia.

"We should stop selling them the rope to hang us with," warned Alexander Khramchikhin of the Institute for Political and Military Analysis.

However, the risks of selling advanced weapons to China took a back seat in Moscow's calculations after Vladimir Putin returned to the Kremlin for a third term a year ago. Last year, Russia's state arms exporter, Rosoboronexport, signed contracts with China worth $2.1-billion, the company's head Anatoly Isaikin said recently. The renewal of sophisticated weapon supplies to China should be seen in the context of geopolitical games in the China-U.S.-Russia triangle.

"The balance of power between America and China will to a large extend depend on whether and on which side Russia will play," said Fyodor Lukyanov, foreign policy analyst.

Russia and China are revitalising defence ties at a time when their relations with the U.S. have run into rough waters. Moscow is deeply disappointed with Mr. Obama's policy of "reset," which is seen in Moscow as a U.S. instrument of winning unilateral concessions from Russia, while Beijing views Mr. Obama's strategic redeployment in the Asia-Pacific region as aimed at containing China.

Profit motives
Russian defence sales to China are also driven by profit motives as arms manufacturers seek to compensate for the recent loss of several lucrative contracts in India, where they face growing competition from the U.S., Europe and Israel. Also, Moscow seems to be less concerned today about the so-called "reverse engineering" of Russian weapons in China as the ability of the Chinese industry to copy critical technologies appears to have been overrated.

"China's programme of developing the J-11B family of aircraft based on the Su-27 platform has run into problems," said Vasily Kashin, expert on China. "China's aircraft engines, which are essentially modified version of Russian engines, are way too inferior to the originals and China continues to depend on the supply of Russian engines."

In the past three-four years, China has bought over 1,000 aircraft engines from Russia and is expected to place more orders in coming years.

"When and if China succeeds in copying Russia's new weapon platforms the Russian industry will hopefully move ahead with new technologies," Mr. Kashin said.

India can also easily offset the advantage that new Russian arms supplies may give China, experts said.

"To retain its edge in military aviation, India needs to speed up the development of a 5th-generation fighter plane with Russia and go for in-depth upgrade of its fleet of Su-30MKI fighters," Mr. Makienko said.

Trade differences
However, the resumption of massive Russian arms supplies to China could still be a cause for concern in India. Closer defence ties between Moscow and Beijing are an offshoot of strong dynamics of their overall relations. China is Russia's top commercial partner, with bilateral trade expected to touch $90 billion this year and soar to $200 billion by 2020. Mr. Putin has described China's rise as "a chance to catch the Chinese wind in the sails of our economy."

This contrasts with sluggish trade between India and Russia, which stood at $11 billion last year; even the target of $20 billion the two governments set for 2015 falls short on ambition. India risks being eclipsed by China on the Russian radar screens. As Russia's top business daily Kommersant noted recently, even today, Russian officials from top to bottom tend to look at India with "drowsy apathy," while Mr. Putin's visit to India last year was long on "meaningless protocol" and short on time and substance.




The dragon gets a bear hug - The Hindu


Dear friends and Defence enthusiasts ,It would be interesting to know your views on the latest and current developments happening far away in Russian defence deals can have strategic bearing to India.Such is the intensity of chinese diplomacy ,they overturn US and Indian interests by colluding with Russian weapon platforms to counter the Western and Indian Influence.
 

datguy79

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Re: The dragon gets a bear hug

Su-35 is better than the Rafale? That is sure to leave some people red-faced, if true.
 

Apollyon

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Re: The dragon gets a bear hug

Su-35 is better than the Rafale? That is sure to leave some people red-faced, if true.
The Russian version, export versions are downgraded i suppose.
Implications of Russian Su-35 sale to PRC will be more for Japan/USA than India and will be most likely be stationed in Eastern China against Japanese F-15J and USAN F-18E/F.
 

Sam2012

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Re: The dragon gets a bear hug

The Russian version, export versions are downgraded i suppose.
Implications of Russian Su-35 sale to PRC will be more for Japan/USA than India and will be most likely be stationed in Eastern China against Japanese F-15J and USAN F-18E/F.
Come on yaar China getting Su-35 means they have top Flanker in Asia now , & Amur Submarine is one of the best diesel Electric submarine

So what India is going to do about it is the question , with all budget cuts ?

If Russia supply downgraded export version then same thing can be applicable to Su-30MKI & Rafale from France if the deal signed at first place

Project 75I for new submarines is still in Babus mouth :confused:

We have to accept we are at the weakest phase when it comes to defence , no ammo reserves etc
 

Ray

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Re: The dragon gets a bear hug

Good for China.

They require these platforms.
 

arya

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Super SU-30MKI are quite near to PAK-FA compare to those SU-35..
but why we don' want to see realty China is moving ahead and the gap is getting large day by day whats our thinktank are doing

our everysinble things are on paper and they have it .

Pak, sl, nepal, etc are china influence..

Don' you think we should go for su 35 not more su 30 mki...
 

asianobserve

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Don' you think we should go for su 35 not more su 30 mki...
Why would you buy a weapon that China is buying and then expect to fight the same weapon against the Chinese? :confused:
 
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arya

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Why would you buy a weapon that China is buying and then expect to fight the same weapon against the Chinese? :confused:
why not attest equall options for fight.

You think we should go for lowerone.

Su30cant stand against su35
 

Decklander

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Did you guys notice that J-15 never underwent trials on a skiramp or on the deck but landed straight away on their aircraft Carrier. J-15 is same as SU-33. Who gave them this tech? We Indians are developing N-LCA and we all know the problems we are experiencing and how we are resolving them. But China never has such problems. If you look at the chinese weapon Industry prior to 1995 and after that you will find that they suddenly got a strong momentum in R&D. Who provided that momentum? Russia has been doing it for a long long time and we Indians are fools to have trusted russians. I will be least surprised if we suddenly find that PLAAF AAMs supplied to PAF are actually same as our missiles. Russians have made a great game of selling tech to china developed from Indian JV money and weapons to us at our expense. We must dump these bloody russians asap.
 

DivineHeretic

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Did you guys notice that J-15 never underwent trials on a skiramp or on the deck but landed straight away on their aircraft Carrier. J-15 is same as SU-33. Who gave them this tech? We Indians are developing N-LCA and we all know the problems we are experiencing and how we are resolving them. But China never has such problems. If you look at the chinese weapon Industry prior to 1995 and after that you will find that they suddenly got a strong momentum in R&D. Who provided that momentum? Russia has been doing it for a long long time and we Indians are fools to have trusted russians. I will be least surprised if we suddenly find that PLAAF AAMs supplied to PAF are actually same as our missiles. Russians have made a great game of selling tech to china developed from Indian JV money and weapons to us at our expense. We must dump these bloody russians asap.
I think I cam solve this doubt of yours...

it was the Russian Government which itself made a similar proposal in the immediate aftermath of the break-up of the U.S.S.R. Saddled with a collapsed economy that fuelled widespread unemployment, the Russians sought to place its vast pool of Scientists & Technologists, that the Soviets-era regime had nurtured & supported during the Cold War, in suitable & relevant positions of employment, least they turn rogue [speculating]. With this in mind, it approached the Government of India, then headed by Prime Minister Mr. PVN Rao.

The Soviets even agreed to the Scientists being paid part of their salary in Indian Rupees, while the rest, expectedly, the much-needed American Dollars in cash. However, Indian Babus, playing-"seniority-seniority"-scuttled this heaven-sent opportunity, citing rulebooks, pay-grades, Loch Ness monster & what not's.

In India's defence though, our own economy up until the early 90s was itself tottering & heading nowhere, at least not up North. So the financial viability of the proposal, from India's stand point, could itself have been suspect [speculating].

However, as seen above, it wasn't India's fiscal situation that was cited as the reason for rejecting the offer, but pay-grade of government employees. Which is why the news is all that more-irksome. Salary structure of government employees & seniority & prestige indicated by salary drawn eventually took precedence over India's National interests - how unfortunate.

Not surprisingly, they found a very welcoming China who, it appears, greeted them with open arms & coffers.-Russian Scientists-form an integral part of many a critical Chinese weapons development programs. In its drive to posses required technologies, China has-adopted a-multi-pronged-approach, including contracting expertise from overseas, if required. Take, for example,-China's flat-topdevelopment program. Ukraine, which inherited significant portions of erstwhile Soviet Unions vast Naval development infrastructure, has deputed large number of its-Naval Engineers-to be part of the program.

Our bureacracy should have been hung from the nearest lamp post right then.

a modest proposal from the Soviets...duly rejected by Indian Babudom - AA Me, IN
 

Decklander

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You got it all wrong. Selling tech is different from selling manpower. manpower needs to research and develop, when you sell tech, you sell the finished product
 

DivineHeretic

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why not attest equall options for fight.

You think we should go for lowerone.

Su30cant stand against su35
The Su35 has been offered to us multiple times in the past. And each time it has been rejected by IAF in favour of SU30mki. Rhetoric aside, the two platforms are nearly equivalent in performance, both electronic and kinematic.

The SU35 has the advantages of lower RCS and better engines, but there is something obviously in favour of the mki that made the IAF prefer it over the 35. The EW and avionics suite of Russians is still suspect, especially since now they have gone for the Russian version of our MKI, a full 10 years after us, and 5 years after the development of the SU35.

And in any case, the RCS of SU30 and SU35 is not really a factor, given that both are intended to carry munitions on 12 hardpoints. That would make the RCS large enough to be detected easily by other AC, regardless of their clean RCS. Advantage nullified.
 

arya

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The Su35 has been offered to us multiple times in the past. And each time it has been rejected by IAF in favour of SU30mki. Rhetoric aside, the two platforms are nearly equivalent in performance, both electronic and kinematic.

The SU35 has the advantages of lower RCS and better engines, but there is something obviously in favour of the mki that made the IAF prefer it over the 35. The EW and avionics suite of Russians is still suspect, especially since now they have gone for the Russian version of our MKI, a full 10 years after us, and 5 years after the development of the SU35.

And in any case, the RCS of SU30 and SU35 is not really a factor, given that both are intended to carry munitions on 12 hardpoints. That would make the RCS large enough to be detected easily by other AC, regardless of their clean RCS. Advantage nullified.
tell me which plane you will deploy again Chinese su 35 mmrca is till now not signed and they cant fight them , same as su30mki ...

My only question how will we give them answer ..

Our ac from china till now didn't come while Chinese are working ....

I want answer on solid reason...
 

Sam2012

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You need to learn what is Super SU-30MKI and What is SU-35..

In my view with all the specs, Super SU-30MKI is better..
You are right we should not go for Su-35 ,we should not act like insane , but go for faster induction for Super-30MKI :thumb:

Sign MMRCA ASAP & P75I Submarine , Saint antony should not sit on all these deals under his dhothi any more, If Chidambaram talks too much on finance problem he should be slapped & sent to jail because he is also a accused in 2G case

YOU BABUS EAT UP ALL MONEY & CUT DEFENCE BUDGET:mad:
 

Sam2012

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Did you guys notice that J-15 never underwent trials on a skiramp or on the deck but landed straight away on their aircraft Carrier. J-15 is same as SU-33. Who gave them this tech? We Indians are developing N-LCA and we all know the problems we are experiencing and how we are resolving them. But China never has such problems. If you look at the chinese weapon Industry prior to 1995 and after that you will find that they suddenly got a strong momentum in R&D. Who provided that momentum? Russia has been doing it for a long long time and we Indians are fools to have trusted russians. I will be least surprised if we suddenly find that PLAAF AAMs supplied to PAF are actually same as our missiles. Russians have made a great game of selling tech to china developed from Indian JV money and weapons to us at our expense. We must dump these bloody russians asap.
Mate Russia means business , they make money out of defence sales they will sell to any country even Pakis can buy they will seel . But pakis expect softloan which Russia will tell get lost

They have even fielded S-400 Anti ballistic missile system in Turkey competation , Turkey is a NATO country

Remember we have also got significant help from russia in tech front eg: Arihant,Brahmos,Prithvi( which was reverse engineered from a soviet SAM) etc

But what china did is they recruited ex Soviet scientist in Defence R&D after fall of Soviet union that really helped . Problem in India is everything is politically biased we are not able to hold to local talent itself . nearly 10%-20% of scientist in NASA , BOEING, NASA are from India or Indian Origin

DRDO & Defence PSU sleeps on projects , MOD does not want to give defence business to Indian private industry because they get huge kickbacks from arms dealers . So Problem is within ourselves we have to accept & move on:thumb:
 

DivineHeretic

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tell me which plane you will deploy again Chinese su 35 mmrca is till now not signed and they cant fight them , same as su30mki ...

My only question how will we give them answer ..

Our ac from china till now didn't come while Chinese are working ....

I want answer on solid reason...
The Rafale was never intended to be air superiority AC, even though it is very good in A2A role. The IAF designated the Su30 the air dominance role and the rafale MMRCA for a reason. The PESA radar onboard the SU is superior in detection range and power to the RBE2 AESA of the Rafale, and with addition of AESA to super Su, this gap will only increase. Not to mention the flight characteristics of SU is better than the Rafale.
Introduction of Rafale will not change the Orbat of the IAF, as far as air dominance is concerned.

And how do you assume that the SU35 is overwhelmingly superior to the SU30? I have already pointed out the RCS comparison as meaningless for their intended roles. The engine difference is a valid issue though.

The Super SU upgrade will introduce vastly improved cockpit and most essentially the AESA radar, whose t/r count will exceed the one onboard the Rafale and will at minimum match the Captor on the EF. Add to that indegenious components and Israeli EW suite, and in terms of avionics, it will challenge the SU35 any day.

And then again you forget the area of encounter. The SU 35 will take off from Tibet. At such altitudes, the AC cannot takeoff with full complement of weapons and fuel, unlike ours which will take off from plains.

And in any case, the Chinese have yet to receive the SU35, most likely it will start from 2014.
 

DivineHeretic

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tell me which plane you will deploy again Chinese su 35 mmrca is till now not signed and they cant fight them , same as su30mki ...

My only question how will we give them answer ..

Our ac from china till now didn't come while Chinese are working ....

I want answer on solid reason...
The Rafale was never intended to be air superiority AC, even though it is very good in A2A role. The IAF designated the Su30 the air dominance role and the rafale MMRCA for a reason. The PESA radar onboard the SU is superior in detection range and power to the RBE2 AESA of the Rafale, and with addition of AESA to super Su, this gap will only increase. Not to mention the flight characteristics of SU is better than the Rafale.
Introduction of Rafale will not change the Orbat of the IAF, as far as air dominance is concerned.

And how do you assume that the SU35 is overwhelmingly superior to the SU30? I have already pointed out the RCS comparison as meaningless for their intended roles. The engine difference is a valid issue though.

The Super SU upgrade will introduce vastly improved cockpit and most essentially the AESA radar, whose t/r count will exceed the one onboard the Rafale and will at minimum match the Captor on the EF. Add to that indegenious components and Israeli EW suite, and in terms of avionics, it will challenge the SU35 any day.

And then again you forget the area of encounter. The SU 35 will take off from Tibet. At such altitudes, the AC cannot takeoff with full complement of weapons and fuel, unlike ours which will take off from plains.

And in any case, the Chinese have yet to receive the SU35, most likely it will start from 2014.
 

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