Russia-Pakistan Rapproachment

[pmaitra]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

Disagree how and why ?

Already explained multiple times.

If any country supplies weapons to Pakistan, India should get scared and give them even more money for weapons fso that they don't blackmail India by also selling their wares to Pakistan ?

If I am writing the big cheques, I also get to dictate. If US thinks giving aid to Pakistan is much more profitable than selling 10-20billion $ weapons to India, then US should continue to give aid to Pak.

US will continue to give military aid to Pakistan. Pakistan is strategically to important for US. There is nothing India can do about it. Also, can India do without the C-17? No. India cannot blacklist the US.

Russia will continue to sell military items to PRC. PRC is strategically important for Russia. There is nothing India can do about it. Also, can India do without the level of ToT India gets from Russia? No. India cannot blacklist Russia.

These are the reasons why "if you supply to Pakistan, you get penalized," policy will not work.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

All these issues can only be resolved by building an indigenous capability.
It will also guarantee only top of the line weapons are offered in competition.

 

[Singh]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

@pmaitra

Look at Pak, not only are they killing Americans but are getting paid for it.
Yet, you are making it sound as though India has no option but to kow-tow to their military suppliers.
From what I understand the one who writes the cheque has the leverage. And India writes cheques annually with 10 zeroes.


==
If Russia wants to make 50million$ and sell to Pakistan sure, but then India is not obliged to not punish Russia.
India can give a few orders to others, and politely drop hints to say well this is because you sold to Pakistan. You want to test us ? go ahead. Make 50mn$ and the opportunity loss would be 500mn$.

With the kind of need, demand and resources we have, only a fool would try to make pennies when they can make big bucks from India.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

@pmaitra

Look at Pak, not only are they killing Americans but are getting paid for it.
Yet, you are making it sound as though India has no option but to kow-tow to their military suppliers.
From what I understand the one who writes the cheque has the leverage. And India writes cheques annually with 10 zeroes.


==
If Russia wants to make 50million$ and sell to Pakistan sure, but then India is not obliged to not punish Russia.
India can give a few orders to others, and politely drop hints to say well this is because you sold to Pakistan. You want to test us ? go ahead. Make 50mn$ and the opportunity loss would be 500mn$.

With the kind of need, demand and resources we have, only a fool would try to make pennies when they can make big bucks from India.

That is because you are looking purely from the monetary point of view. If we strictly stick to the monetary point of view, I have nothing to disagree with you.

The point I am making is on a premise that is not restricted to just writing a cheque. It is a lot more than that. The countries selling stuff to Pakistan or PRC, have other considerations as well, that are far more important. That is why, and this is my opinion, I believe, that policy you suggest, will not work. We have to be practical.

 

[Singh]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

That is because you are looking purely from the monetary point of view. If we strictly stick to the monetary point of view, I have nothing to disagree with you.

The point I am making is on a premise that is not restricted to just writing a cheque. It is a lot more than that. The countries selling stuff to Pakistan or PRC, have other considerations as well, that are far more important. That is why, and this is my opinion, I believe, that policy you suggest, will not work. We have to be practical.

Of course you can't wholly and solely dictate US or Russian FP.

Lets see what kind of leverage India can enjoy. If US is selling a particular weapon to Pakistan, India can ask that it not be supplied, or an inferior kind be supplied, or lesser quantity be supplied or that we be allowed to buy a superior product at the same time.

Or if US still doesn't listen to us, in a new bid, disqualify their company on flimsy ground. Those lobbyists will prevail upon their Govt to ensure India is satisfied.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

Of course you can't wholly and solely dictate US or Russian FP.

Lets see what kind of leverage India can enjoy. If US is selling a particular weapon to Pakistan, India can ask that it not be supplied, or an inferior kind be supplied, or lesser quantity be supplied or that we be allowed to buy a superior product at the same time.

Or if US still doesn't listen to us, in a new bid, disqualify their company on flimsy ground. Those lobbyists will prevail upon their Govt to ensure India is satisfied.

Right, and in other words, we have to play a delicate balancing act. The idea should be to extract as much as we can.

Look how PRC extracted a generously cheap price for Russian gas, a deal that was hanging for years, just after the Ukrainian crisis. Why are we not able to give lollypops like that? Now, that Russian economy is facing challenges, India could have offered money and gotten the complete ToT for the BrahMos missile, the part that Russia builds. Instead, we are talking about "red lines." As a side note, I believe, Russian deal with Indian GAIL on LNG was also reasonably priced, considering the timing.

 

[Singh]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

Right, and in other words, we have to play a delicate balancing act. The idea should be to extract as much as we can.

Look how PRC extracted a generously cheap price for Russian gas, a deal that was hanging for years, just after the Ukrainian crisis. Why are we not able to give lollypops like that? Now, that Russian economy is facing challenges, India could have offered money and gotten the complete ToT for the BrahMos missile, the part that Russia builds. Instead, we are talking about "red lines." As a side note, I believe, Russian deal with Indian GAIL on LNG was also reasonably priced, considering the timing.

Good point. Indian Govt is not interested in milking as much as being milked. More money to be made in the latter case.

 

[kseeker]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

India raises concern over Russian attack copter sale to Pakistan | The Indian Express

India on Thursday raised its concerns over Russia's move to sell its Mi35 attack helicopters to Pakistan. The issue was raised by External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj during her meeting with visiting Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry O Rogozin.

Russia, which supplies 60 per cent of India's arms imports, had last week spoken about its willingness to supply the attack helicopters to Islamabad. "The question regarding our defence cooperation and any issues that impact this in terms of our concern were raised," an MEA spokesperson said.

Last week, Russian Ambassador to Pakistan Alexey Dedov has announced a possible sale of the attack helicopters. "Pakistan has expressed its interest in buying MI-35 helicopters and we have shown our willingness to provide them," he had said.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

RUSSIA'S PROPOSED ARMS SALE TO PAKISTAN: DECIPHERING 'TRUE LIES' – ANALYSIS | idrw.org

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

Pakistan to Use Russian Mi-35 Helicopters to Fight Drug Trafficking | idrw.org

 

[Neo]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

PAF is looking for several toys in Russia.
A team will leave soon for Russia to evaluate Su-35.
Earlier in late nineties the Su-27 was also evaluated by PAF but it never materlialised and PAF ordered 61 F-16's.

I wonder if China is pushing for this deal for Pakistan Navy. Interesting development.

 

[Pandora]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

PAF is looking for several toys in Russia.
A team will leave soon for Russia to evaluate Su-35.
Earlier in late nineties the Su-27 was also evaluated by PAF but it never materlialised and PAF ordered 61 F-16's.

I wonder if China is pushing for this deal for Pakistan Navy. Interesting development.

Aukaat mein raha karo baccha. Su 35 ?? can you provide us some links.First thing First, Buy Mi 35 without soft loans....

 

[pankaj nema]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

These days Arms market is very competitive and Russia needs hard currency to beat Western Sanctions

So Russia will go ahead with this sale

India should be happy that Pakistan is lacking resources to buy weapons

If Pakistan gives even 2 Billion Dollar to Russia it will be ready to sell it ANYTHING
including Su 35

 

[Neo]

Aukaat mein raha karo baccha. Su 35 ?? can you provide us some links.First thing First, Buy Mi 35 without soft loans....

Aukaat me woh log rahein jinke muh par tamacha para ho aur jo dunia ko apni milkiyat samajhte hoon ke unke ek isharay par har kaam ruk jayega.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[rizwan78]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

Russia want its control over south asia , so they are supporting China and Pakistan openly. other side USA want to control south asia with support of India, it is better for india to stay in south asian club as russia is always there friendly country

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

Aukaat me woh log rahein jinke muh par tamacha para ho aur jo dunia ko apni milkiyat samajhte hoon ke unke ek isharay par har kaam ruk jayega.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

isn't pakistan slapped by america, UN nation on polio, lower passport...... Russia still in favours of india as there are many JVs like fgfa, brahmos, mta, kudankulam.
.
and till su35 which have high rcs and pesa comes in intently of pakistan, we will have tejas mk1, tejas mk2, rafale which have way lower rcs and AESA and su30 mki will be transformed to super sukhoi which will also have aesa.........
.
by the its just evaluation , it will take another 5 years to negotiate. And more to enter service and nor pakistan can buy su35 in mass.... And india developed india specific variant of rafale, su30 etc. Su35 will face problems without pakistan specific variant and it will need huge money to develop pakistan specific model.....

 

[Compersion]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

Isn't PRC buying the su 35 ... Is Pakistan going to be a module of that deal like a sub province of PRC. Will North Korea also get a squadron.

Seem America does not give too much attention to paki statecraft (and tricks) these days. Like the good old days where pakis got f16s.

Also what happened to the jf fighter co develop with PRC.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

PAF gave on Flanker coz it cannot affort it, They instead went for Light fighter such as F-16 cheaper in longer run ..

If PAF wanted Flankers, It could get it anytime from China including J-10, But they could not ..

 

[prohumanity]

Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

Russian leaders have clarified many times that these helicopters are to help Pakis fight Islamic terrorists. They are not getting SU27, PAK-FA or anything like that.

 

[Neo]

isn't pakistan slapped by america, UN nation on polio, lower passport...... Russia still in favours of india as there are many JVs like fgfa, brahmos, mta, kudankulam.
.
and till su35 which have high rcs and pesa comes in intently of pakistan, we will have tejas mk1, tejas mk2, rafale which have way lower rcs and AESA and su30 mki will be transformed to super sukhoi which will also have aesa.........
.
by the its just evaluation , it will take another 5 years to negotiate. And more to enter service and nor pakistan can buy su35 in mass.... And india developed india specific variant of rafale, su30 etc. Su35 will face problems without pakistan specific variant and it will need huge money to develop pakistan specific model.....

And still you wet your pants for smallest military purchases Pakistan makes and your leaders run frim east to west and north to south to sabotage the deal. Some trust you have in your super duper military.