Russia-Pakistan Rapproachment

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal as Deputy PM gets set to visit

When Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin arrives in India next week, he will be informed that Russia's plans to sell lethal military equipment to Pakistan amounts to the crossing of a "red line" in relations between New Delhi and Moscow.
Russia, which was displaced last year by the US as India's biggest arms supplier, is reportedly negotiating with Pakistan the sale of the Mi-35 Hind gunship (heavily armed helicopters).

The move has not gone down well with the Indian government.

"There are red lines in all relationships. We have no problems if the Russians sell non-lethal equipment like Mi-17 helicopters to Pakistan. They can even sell counter-terrorism equipment but the Mi-35s are not non-lethal equipment," a source in the government told Mail Today.

The sale of lethal gear like Mi-35 attack helicopters by Moscow to Islamabad will be tantamount to "crossing a red line" and this will be conveyed to Rogozin by his Indian interlocutors when he arrives in the Indian capital on June 18.

Indian officials believe the proposed deal for Mi-35 helicopters is unlikely to go through any time soon but India's views on it will nonetheless be conveyed to Rogozin.

The officials acknowledged Russia's decision to engage Pakistan ahead of the drawdown of foreign forces in Afghanistan but said this should not affect the strategic balance in the region.

Rogozin, who co-chairs the India-Russia Inter-governmental Commission on Trade, Economic, Scientific, Technological and Cultural Cooperation, will be the first Russian leader to visit Delhi since the new BJP government assumed office.
He is expected to discuss cooperation in defence, trade, nuclear energy and space exploration.

His unscheduled visit will also prepare the ground for the first summit meeting of Russian President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

Reports from Moscow said Rogozin would attempt to reassure the Indian leadership that India remains Russia's most important defence and strategic partner.

While the Indian government has not officially reacted to negotiations for the sale of Mi-35 helicopters, there have been misleading reports in the Indian media that an arms embargo on Islamabad was lifted by Moscow.

Alexander Kadakin, the Russian envoy to India, has said Moscow never imposed an arms embargo on Islamabad and that its military cooperation with Pakistan dated back to the 1960s. He also said Russia had not changed any policy.

Over the past few years, Pakistan has assiduously courted Russia to boost bilateral relations. Former Army chief Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani visited Russia in 2009 and 2012.

During the second visit, Russian Defence Minister Anatoly Serdyukov postponed an annual meeting with his then Indian counterpart A.K. Antony in New Delhi so that he could meet Kayani.

Read more: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal as Deputy PM gets set to visit | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[pmaitra]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

India should make a counter proposal to ditch that Chinook, and instead procure a batch of Mil-26T2, along with a good supply of spares. As a matter of fact, India could negotiate setting up a factory in India for building the Mil-26T2, which will not only satisfy India's strategic lift requirements, but also generate jobs in India.

 

[Kaalapani]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

India should make a counter proposal to ditch that Chinook, and instead procure a batch of Mil-26T2, along with a good supply of spares. As a matter of fact, India could negotiate setting up a factory in India for building the Mil-26T2, which will not only satisfy India's strategic lift requirements, but also generate jobs in India.

I have a question How cum Congress sign a deal with Boing for chinook,apachi,c-17,c-130 with out single tot?

 

[pmaitra]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

I have a question How cum Congress sign a deal with Boing for chinook,apachi,c-17,c-130 with out single tot?

MMS was totally sold out to the US. Of course, India did benefit as India became NSG compliant without having to sign the NPT. The US, for its part, did expect some favours to come its way. Personally, I feel India should have given some orders to the US, however, I think we crossed all limit by bending over backwards and giving away way too many deals to the US.

That Chinook was a bummer. The army's weight requirements weren't even met by that. This is my personal view. To me, it was obvious that the Chinook was chosen, not because it was meant to serve a purpose (of replacing India's aging Mil-26 fleet), but to give money away to the US. It would have been a sweet deal to get the Mil-26T2 as a replacement for the existing Mil-26, because, the newer ones have better engines, and can fly with less crew, and can satisfy the weight requirements of the Army.

The C-17 is actually a very good plane to have. It really is.

The US never gives ToT. Russia does in many cases. Of course, even Russia won't give ToT for the Tupolev-160, but other than that, they will give something.

 

[Ashutosh Lokhande]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

guys how will it matter if russia sell pakistan fighter helicopters or not? if russia doesnt sell it then some other country will.

 

[Peter]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

MMS was totally sold out to the US. Of course, India did benefit as India became NSG compliant without having to sign the NPT. The US, for its part, did expect some favours to come its way. Personally, I feel India should have given some orders to the US, however, I think we crossed all limit by bending over backwards and giving away way too many deals to the US.

That Chinook was a bummer. The army's weight requirements weren't even met by that. This is my personal view. To me, it was obvious that the Chinook was chosen, not because it was meant to serve a purpose (of replacing India's aging Mil-26 fleet), but to give money away to the US. It would have been a sweet deal to get the Mil-26T2 as a replacement for the existing Mil-26, because, the newer ones have better engines, and can fly with less crew, and can satisfy the weight requirements of the Army.

The C-17 is actually a very good plane to have. It really is.

The US never gives ToT. Russia does in many cases. Of course, even Russia won't give ToT for the Tupolev-160, but other than that, they will give something.

The Chinook deal is being fast-tracked, say Indian government sources, and New Delhi hopes to have it finalised by December.
This is partly being driven by a desire to flesh out the thin agenda at the Washington summit. The proposal will be added to the schedule of US deputy secretary of defence Ashton Carter when he comes to New Delhi September 16-18.

The Indian side wants some major defence purchases readied for the summit, but other Indo-US weapons deals are caught in red tape. For example, the M777 howitzer deal has been in the works for two years and now, in part because of rupee devaluation, the price tag is bigger.

The Chinooks also face barriers. Boeing recently tried to add limited liability clauses to its military purchases and the Indian government is not happy about it. US sources say they have yet to receive any notification from the ministry of defence about the Chinooks.

The induction of the Chinooks will confirm the Stars and Stripes look of the Indian Air Force's airlift capabilities. India has already bought C-130 Hercules and C-17 Globemaster heavy-lift airplanes.

Military sources say the US aircraft have proven better at functioning at high-altitudes then the Russian planes they are replacing.
India has been mulling buying Chinooks to replace the Russian-made Mi-26 transport helicopters that were transformational when they were introduced a quarter-century ago but have a record of chronic maintenance problems.

India will be the 17th air force in the world to use Chinooks.

India shops for 6 Chinook choppers - Hindustan Times

 

[Adux]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

Only idiots will think US and Russia are viewed the same in India, especially in Defense.
US is not given the first dip or the exhalted status the Russians are given, most of the deals for Russians dont even have a competition or accountability. If Russia wants to retain such a position, then it should abide by our concerns, if it is 'OK' with being treated as the same as the USA, and have to fight for Defense deals through competitive bidding like the rest of them have to do, Fine..lets play ball.

 

[Ray]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

Can someone explain why India does not indicate 'redlines' when France sell lethal weapons to Pakistan?

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

guys how will it matter if russia sell pakistan fighter helicopters or not? if russia doesnt sell it then some other country will.

america won't gonna supply attack helicopter cause they want dollars. China doesn't have quality attacks chopper, russia have good attack chopper and in low price. So if russia denies then pakis won't gonna get quality chopper

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

Can someone explain why India does not indicate 'redlines' when France sell lethal weapons to Pakistan?

sir, when we buy russian equipment , most of times this equipment have no competition in tender. They are brought in govt to govt negotiation eg. Su30mki, mi35, smerch, talawar class, vikramaditya, R73, R77, T90, T72 etc. French each and every time have to win in tender like rafale, scorpian etc.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

@Peter , your post says american aircrafts can fly better at high altitudes. Well that's depend on plane cause hornet, contender of MMRCA was unable to land at leh.
.
Livefist: Four MMRCA Contenders Fail Leh Trials!
.
and the four was those which were eliminated first

 

[Ashutosh Lokhande]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

america won't gonna supply attack helicopter cause they want dollars. China doesn't have quality attacks chopper, russia have good attack chopper and in low price. So if russia denies then pakis won't gonna get quality chopper

sir what u think about UK or france? pakis cant buy from them as well?
even if they dont get attack helicopters for war purposes with india they always have there biggest weapon aka nuclear blackmail with them.
few attack helicopters wont change the overhelming conventional upper hand india enjoys over pak.
the moment they strt loosing war they will simply press the N button.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

I would say wrong strategy on part of Russia. Given the economic miseries of Pakistan, it would be difficult for them to buy anything in the future.

 

[Peter]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

@Peter , your post says american aircrafts can fly better at high altitudes. Well that's depend on plane cause hornet, contender of MMRCA was unable to land at leh.
.
Livefist: Four MMRCA Contenders Fail Leh Trials!
.
and the four was those which were eliminated first

I think they also took maintenance cost into the negotiations. Apparently the US planes have better maintenance. I do not know though. I have no knowledge on this matters.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

sir what u think about UK or france? pakis cant buy from them as well?
even if they dont get attack helicopters for war purposes with india they always have there biggest weapon aka nuclear blackmail with them.
few attack helicopters wont change the overhelming conventional upper hand india enjoys over pak.
the moment they strt loosing war they will simply press the N button.

don't call me sir, call me by name
.
british uses licence version of apache
.
AgustaWestland Apache - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.
and french won't gonna export tiger chopper cause of its high cost doesn't suits pakistan and it isn't multi role and have 3 partners so it is difficult to sell this to pakistan
.
so both hands won't gonna chopper

 

[Ashutosh Lokhande]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

lets say pak doesnt get any attack helis or aircrafts/land vehicles from any1 to use against india, still they can contain india just by threatening to nuke and they know very well india wudnt like a nuclear war with pak or with any country per se. so why the ---- they wasting billions on such helis in the first place. there existing fleet are enough. as i said 1nce they strt loosing there airforce they just call up india and threaten. thats it. india pulls back. end of war.
i feel pak spending on convential war fighting capabilities against india is useless.

don't call me sir, call me by name
.
british uses licence version of apache
.
AgustaWestland Apache - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.
and french won't gonna export tiger chopper cause of its high cost doesn't suits pakistan and it isn't multi role and have 3 partners so it is difficult to sell this to pakistan
.
so both hands won't gonna chopper

 

[Ray]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

sir, when we buy russian equipment , most of times this equipment have no competition in tender. They are brought in govt to govt negotiation eg. Su30mki, mi35, smerch, talawar class, vikramaditya, R73, R77, T90, T72 etc. French each and every time have to win in tender like rafale, scorpian etc.

Does tendering matter.

Lethal weapons are sold by France to Pakistan and so is Russia planning to do now.

Those weapons with be used against India and the matter of tendering or not will not affect casualties that may occur.

Therefore, if India is to protest against Russia selling to Pakistan, then India should also protest when France sells to Pakistan.

That is what I am meaning.

 

[Ajesh]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

Honestly i think, nobody is nobody's in International Relations.And especially all of the superpowers are Selfish.But i do hope when my India becomes a Superpower we will behave differently.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

Until India builds it's industrial military infrastructure to build indigenous weapons expect
More news like this. No one sells exclusively to india. Israel can sell to Pakistan thru turkey,
Russia has sold mid air refuellers and tank technology to Pakistan thru Ukraine now they
Are just doing it officially. Too bad India put everything in the Russian basket sukhois.pakfa,
Brahmos,t90 tanks etc... Any revamping would effect all the services and would be time consuming
And costly.

 

[praneet.bajpaie]

Re: India draws 'red line' on Russia-Pakistan deal

Until India builds it's industrial military infrastructure to build indigenous weapons expect
More news like this. No one sells exclusively to india. Israel can sell to Pakistan thru turkey,
Russia has sold mid air refuellers and tank technology to Pakistan thru Ukraine now they
Are just doing it officially. Too bad India put everything in the Russian basket sukhois.pakfa,
Brahmos,t90 tanks etc... Any revamping would effect all the services and would be time consuming
And costly.

Absolutely. All of these arguments would have been moot had we had more accomplished and brainy scientists. Alas it is not the case.