Russia-Pakistan Rapproachment

Neo

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re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

I think this conforms the rumors were true after all ..

Gud luck then ..
Two years of intensive work and heavy lobbying by China resulted into thus new approach. I reported it last year that a deal.was in the making to purchase a number of military hardware from Russia.

Pakistan will also play a bigger and more important role in stabalising post 2014 Afghamistan, a plan agreed by Chana and Russia.
 

roma

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re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

From the times article something i would like to point out.
India has been upset with Russia's propensity to not stick to delivery schedules, jack up costs mid-way through execution of contracts, create hurdles in transfer of technology and be unreliable about spares.
The long-delayed delivery of aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya (Admiral Gorshkov) as well as the huge jump in its refit cost to $2.33 billion is just one of the examples. But Russia will remain India's major military supplier for the foreseeable future.
India closely watching Russian move to sell attack helicopters to Pakistan - The Times of India

This is no surprise except for indians still stuck in the cold war.
Once Russia cuts out oil and gas, the Ukraine defence machinery will collapse.
Yes many Indians stuck in the thinking of the cold-war era , calling Russia brother while they are calculating
the inflated prices to re-quote to India at the next project-progress meeting, as LF Sir has pointed out !

Also as Ray Sir has informed and if i might expand on his point:- the cold war in fact hasn't really ended, the cold-war mentality has to be replaced, but that war has mutated into a slightly warmer "cold-war " - i.e. the edges of it have become warmer and fuzzy ... and so alignments are witnessing cross-border infringements and a kind of war -barter along the edges:- Folks point that Ukraine has moves westward, Romania is now part of NATO and do the cold war has ended - i say no , these are border re-alignments . After WW2 the Soviet Union took on new territory, satellites and really it bit off more than it could chew and some 40 year after that , the system had to face that truth - that it had taken on too much - and so spat those extras out - but the basic opposition of Russia to the west - apparently it still remains - the cold war hasn't ended - it has only put on summer clothes and as such looks a bit more friendly and approachable:
- wait till the winter comes !


Resulting in events like Pakistan making some breakthroughs in closing deals across the previous boundary lines

Further, deduced from Ray's point - India needs to view defence in greater panorama - nowadays it is panoramic defence with every citizen being an important part of the sum total. Today's defence and warfare is as much economic as it is technological and no longer the "warrior-race" or warrior mentality which our northwestern friends across the border seem to brag about and learned four lessons in defeat . Panoramic defence where the pen is mightier than the sword - where one Indian student seriously pursuing tehnology R&D is more valuable than packland's imaginary war heroes Sultan Tipu and others.put together..... ( Let's give those students a better research grant ! and reform that DRDO into ISRO )

But they are learning and technology, even totally acquired technology with no knowledge of how it works - just
the ability to push the right buttons - can have devastating effect

and so India has no choice but to be a part of the race of ever having to make improvements
in the area of defence systems - but we do have the manpower and educational institutions . We now look
to see how the new goi will combine these to initiate projects and ideas to take India off foreign dependence
gradually to produce its own defence systems and have better bargaining power with situations like
the Admiral Gorshkov carrier affair..
 
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ladder

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re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

Two years of intensive work and heavy lobbying by China resulted into thus new approach. I reported it last year that a deal.was in the making to purchase a number of military hardware from Russia.

Pakistan will also play a bigger and more important role in stabalising post 2014 Afghamistan, a plan agreed by Chana and Russia.
Generic talks were on for more than 2 years now.

Once your defense attache to New Delhi was in attendance at a Indian Air Force event. A retired senior officer from Indian armed forces asked him ' heard you are looking for Russian equipment's?' the attache replied back ' what's wrong in that, we are free to approach anybody'. Then the officer said
' I can give you a piece of advice, if you buy, buy them in numbers'.

* single quote has been used as it's not a verbatim quote. But, to represent the theme of discussion.

=====================

Hope your establishment adheres to the advice.

but, as evident from your budget, you will be in a stretch if you do, and will surely be if you don't.
 

abhi_the _gr8_maratha

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re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

real good advice , if you want to buy russian equipment, buy them in numbers otherwise it will be a vikramaditya case. And looking at their budget , it is really impossible for them to buy in quantity.
.
and this deal won't gonna do anything until there is a TOT . And doesn't matter how politics pakis and chinese plays but india will always on lead in afghanistan.
 

Ray

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re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

Two years of intensive work and heavy lobbying by China resulted into thus new approach. I reported it last year that a deal.was in the making to purchase a number of military hardware from Russia.

Pakistan will also play a bigger and more important role in stabalising post 2014 Afghamistan, a plan agreed by Chana and Russia.
It is a mistaken belief that just because both countries have a common religion, it will be a great bonding factor and Pakistan will play a major role in stabilising Afghanistan.

Afghans are a very independent minded lot and amongst themselves they are of different and strong views. And then, they are a multi ethnic lot,with fierce loyalty to their difference.

There is also the issue of the Pak Pathans and the Afghan Pathan who may be encouraged to unite.

In fact, the post US departure scenario is very fluid and chaotic to say the least.

China, itself, will have to be wary since there is a live possibility that Uighurs might find support from those in Afghanistan, who are no longer tied down fighting the US.
 
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Kunal Biswas

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re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

Honestly, Its what you want to see ..

=====================

In reality such move by Russia is make India worry, India is world largest importer and Russian lobby is still the strongest at MOD, Though, We had with Russian and focusing on our own Industry also Western systems seem to be our favorite now, We are glad they out of this country for good, We wish to be independent of mass imports :) ..

Two years of intensive work and heavy lobbying by China resulted into thus new approach. I reported it last year that a deal.was in the making to purchase a number of military hardware from Russia.

Pakistan will also play a bigger and more important role in stabalising post 2014 Afghamistan, a plan agreed by Chana and Russia.
 

Neo

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re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

It is a mistaken belief that just because both countries have a common religion, it will be a great bonding factor and Pakistan will play a major role in stabilising Afghanistan.

Afghans are a very independent minded lot and amongst themselves they are of different and strong views. And then, they are a multi ethnic lot,with fierce loyalty to their difference.

There is also the issue of the Pak Pathans and the Afghan Pathan who may be encouraged to unite.

In fact, the post US departure scenario is very fluid and chaotic to say the least.

China, itself, will have to be wary since there is a live possibility that Uighurs might find support from those in Afghanistan, who are no longer tied down fighting the US.
Don't play the religion card, it has no merit here. The roles have alreasy been decided and agreed with Russians and.Chinese and they won't make same mistakes as Obama but will be more supportive of Pakistan.

Afghan taliban are on the surge, a reality not hidden from the US or western media and unless the new Afghan govt comes up with some miraclous formula to unite the country, Afghanistan will be sucked into another power vacuum with the taliban claiming victory in no time. This is what worries China and Russia and instead of fighting against the Talib regime they want to contain it through Pakistan and stabalise it into something like Iran.

Loyalty is no issue for Pak Pathans, they are entering PA and FC in numbers. Most affected areas of Pakistan.during past 13 years is the tribal belt and border arras. We have witnessed the change in their society and support.for Afghani Patshuns have deteriorated to minimum levels. I visited Peshawar, Bannu and Chitral last year, saw the support for PA and the was pleased to hear that many people blame Afghan and US for the poor security in the region. There is no love for TTP and the terrorists have to pay heavily to the feudals in the area to get support.
TtP is broken, has lost many foreign mercenries to Syria.

Uyguhrs are a minor group in Afghanistan and will be dealt with. We ahave eliminated some of them already in Waziristan and last weeks raid on Afghanistan killed few more.

You will see many more hot persuits by PA and PAF into Afghanistan in future.
We have already started to clean up the mess
 

Neo

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re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

Honestly, Its what you want to see ..

=====================

In reality such move by Russia is make India worry, India is world largest importer and Russian lobby is still the strongest at MOD, Though, We had with Russian and focusing on our own Industry also Western systems seem to be our favorite now, We are glad they out of this country for good, We wish to be independent of mass imports :) ..
India should indeed work harder to improve and expand her domestic capabilities and try to catch up with China, her main rival. Whatever Pakistan is buying and whereever she's buying it from should not matter, India will always have numeric superiority and should have more faith in her defence machinery.
 

Kunal Biswas

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re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

Thank you, Why China ?, Rivals really ?!

If so then why are you replying me ?, We know that ..

India should indeed work harder to improve and expand her domestic capabilities and try to catch up with China, her main rival. Whatever Pakistan is buying and whereever she's buying it from should not matter, India will always have numeric superiority and should have more faith in her defence machinery.
 

Blackwater

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re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

India should indeed work harder to improve and expand her domestic capabilities and try to catch up with China, her main rival. Whatever Pakistan is buying and whereever she's buying it from should not matter, India will always have numeric superiority and should have more faith in her defence machinery.
dusman dusman hota ha,andha ho ya kana
 

Neo

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re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

LOL a country with various separatist insurgencies thinks Afghans need to "unite".
Rality bites mate. We have insurgencies but unlike Afghanistan we are not indulged in a civil war nor are we inviting foreign troops to maintain integrity.
 

Ray

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Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

Don't play the religion card, it has no merit here. The roles have alreasy been decided and agreed with Russians and.Chinese and they won't make same mistakes as Obama but will be more supportive of Pakistan.

Afghan taliban are on the surge, a reality not hidden from the US or western media and unless the new Afghan govt comes up with some miraclous formula to unite the country, Afghanistan will be sucked into another power vacuum with the taliban claiming victory in no time. This is what worries China and Russia and instead of fighting against the Talib regime they want to contain it through Pakistan and stabalise it into something like Iran.

Loyalty is no issue for Pak Pathans, they are entering PA and FC in numbers. Most affected areas of Pakistan.during past 13 years is the tribal belt and border arras. We have witnessed the change in their society and support.for Afghani Patshuns have deteriorated to minimum levels. I visited Peshawar, Bannu and Chitral last year, saw the support for PA and the was pleased to hear that many people blame Afghan and US for the poor security in the region. There is no love for TTP and the terrorists have to pay heavily to the feudals in the area to get support.
TtP is broken, has lost many foreign mercenries to Syria.

Uyguhrs are a minor group in Afghanistan and will be dealt with. We ahave eliminated some of them already in Waziristan and last weeks raid on Afghanistan killed few more.

You will see many more hot persuits by PA and PAF into Afghanistan in future.
We have already started to clean up the mess
That is the real issue.

Would the Afghans take it kindly that Pakistan is having a free run of their country?

The situation of Iran is a dissimilar as chalk and cheese, if you wish to compare it with the Taliban. The Ayotollahs surfaced in Iran because of the outrage of Iranians against the Shah. It was a disciplined uprising which is not representative of the manner in which the Taliban wants to run its writ.

Iran can be contained, but not the Taliban - they are a fundamentalist rabble with many different power centre who will fall out and fight for supremacy, just like the last time they were in so called power in Afghanistan.

I might remind you that the last time the Taliban was in power in Afghanistan, they did not agree to recognise the Durand Line that Pakistan wanted them to recognise; and Pakistan was the one who was paying the piper, but could not call the tune.

Yes, it would be your fond desire that Russia and China has sewed up the issue and Pakistan will be in tow, but the Taliban is no babe in the woods to submit calmly.
 

Neo

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Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

That is the real issue.

Would the Afghans take it kindly that Pakistan is having a free run of their country?

The situation of Iran is a dissimilar as chalk and cheese, if you wish to compare it with the Taliban. The Ayotollahs surfaced in Iran because of the outrage of Iranians against the Shah. It was a disciplined uprising which is not representative of the manner in which the Taliban wants to run its writ.

Iran can be contained, but not the Taliban - they are a fundamentalist rabble with many different power centre who will fall out and fight for supremacy, just like the last time they were in so called power in Afghanistan.

I might remind you that the last time the Taliban was in power in Afghanistan, they did not agree to recognise the Durand Line that Pakistan wanted them to recognise; and Pakistan was the one who was paying the piper, but could not call the tune.

Yes, it would be your fond desire that Russia and China has sewed up the issue and Pakistan will be in tow, but the Taliban is no babe in the woods to submit calmly.
I beg to disagree Sir, there is a parallel between the Islamic revolution in Iran and Afghanistan. Though I agree that the revolution in Iran was triggered by the attrocities of Shah and his unconditional support for USA and the 'unislamic' western culture taking over the Persian society. Taliban want the same thing, a sunni Islamic revolution in.Afghanistan but they got derailed by Al Qaeda and the likes.of Ben Laden and Zwahiri to name a few.

Al.Qaeda is gone and taleban have emerged as a political group that is now even recognised by the USA. Several meetings took place in Qatar between Taliban and western high profile officials. US believes that they don't pose any threat to USA.

Pakistan is only one of two major allies of Taleban. In order to take control of the country, they need Pakistan to be supportive on diplomatic level and its in our national interest to be pro taleban and against the pro India and anti Pakistan NA. So the alliance is a natural one.

Talibs have learnt a lesson during past 13 years that they need to learn to co-exist with Pakistan if they want to succeed. Durandline is dead, history and won't change anytime soon, we know it ans the taleban know it.

It will be a huge task given to Pakistan to contain Talibs and to prevent them allowing Al Qaeda kind of groups to use Afghanistan.for breeding terrorists.
Untill Russia and China recognise Talibs as a political power, Pakistan will provide the channels for multilateral negotiations. This is a much better and respectable position conpared to the gun pointing and bullying Americans.

Post 2014 Afghanistan.won't be a bigger mess than the one we saw in 1987 after the withdrawl of Soviets.
Pakistan too has learnt from past mistakes.and.will balance the act more professionally this time.
 

datguy79

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Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

Rality bites mate. We have insurgencies but unlike Afghanistan we are not indulged in a civil war nor are we inviting foreign troops to maintain integrity.
I am not quite sure you really understand what a civil war is.

The fact is that the Afghans have had most of the security responsibilities since the beginning of 2013 and Bhutto's spawn are being killed at an average rate of 70 per day. The only surge that is working is the ISI's propaganda war on mindless Pakistani drones.
 

Neo

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Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

I am not quite sure you really understand what a civil war is.

The fact is that the Afghans have had most of the security responsibilities since the beginning of 2013 and Bhutto's spawn are being killed at an average rate of 70 per day. The only surge that is working is the ISI's propaganda war on mindless Pakistani drones.
I guess the western media is lying about the surge of Taleban in southern half then.
 

Neo

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Re: Russia may supply MI-35 to Pakistan

Russia is willing to send as many as four Mi-35 for live trials in Pakistan asap. I wonder if they will be tested in Waziristan for night operations.
 

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