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Just doing business.. huh ! ?
Cant say, Extracted from chinditsWhat newspaper is it?
P2: just like you said, do NOT take things at face value.Gorky, we know they fvked up, they apologized, offered to sell Gorky to the Russian Navy instead. However IN continued with the deal, ordered more gizmos to be installed and still finished the project with no profit to Sevmash.
P2: just like you said, do NOT take things at face value.
Even though NO profit to Sevmash, Russia actually got a free/funded experience and re-build of its capability/capacity for AC manufacturing. (All previous USSR carriers are manufactured by shipyards in today's Eukraine). Not to mention that Mig-29k, the real countable carrier-based next-generation fighter for Russia, again, can only be developed and done with India's money. IMO, this is 10 times value compared to (even if there is) "loss" in the deal, to Russia.
Someday I will try to list out all those military industries "saved" only possible because of India - from Russia ship yards, to PAKFA, to Dassault (at least in Rafale case). Just wonder Indian friends aware of it -- without your tax payers' money, actually all those will be dead!! Just dead!! India actually supposed to call much better card in this game. IMO
This is the effect of every deal with every country that we have. Israel has the vast experience of integrating Soviet/Russian aircraft with their avionics for India, MKI and Phalcons come to mind.P2: just like you said, do NOT take things at face value.
Even though NO profit to Sevmash, Russia actually got a free/funded experience and re-build of its capability/capacity for AC manufacturing. (All previous USSR carriers are manufactured by shipyards in today's Eukraine). Not to mention that Mig-29k, the real countable carrier-based next-generation fighter for Russia, again, can only be developed and done with India's money. IMO, this is 10 times value compared to (even if there is) "loss" in the deal, to Russia.
Someday I will try to list out all those military industries "saved" only possible because of India - from Russia ship yards, to PAKFA, to Dassault (at least in Rafale case). Just wonder Indian friends aware of it -- without your tax payers' money, actually all those will be dead!! Just dead!! India actually supposed to call much better card in this game. IMO
Clearly so !From a long term perspective, a country like India has to have indigenous equipment. We cannot afford to run to our suppliers and be open to arm twisting in case of a war, even a limited theatre war.
My last post in this thread - really do NOT have that luxury although I enjoy stopping by.This is the effect of every deal with every country that we have. Israel has the vast experience of integrating Soviet/Russian aircraft with their avionics for India, MKI and Phalcons come to mind.
With an Indian deal ALA will be able to order more Rafales. New markets will open up for Dassault because of an India deal while existing markets get stronger.
With the Apaches, Javelins, C-130J, C-17s and P-8Is, the US will be able to share a logistics and intelligence setup with India apart from kick starting a defence relationship.
How many Flankers do you think were made in Post Soviet Russia before and after India signed a deal for MKI?
However since we are talking about money in this thread, all these other aspects take a back seat.
The scale of our deals are so large that whole careers can be made lasting over many years. So, everybody benefits.
All these deals benefit India as much as the other nations. Would you buy a cellphone for the company's benefit or your own?
Sevmash's advantage of having this experience would only qualify if Russia places actual AC orders at the shipyard. Russians currently do not have plans of deploying new ACs for another 10 years. So, do you think the experience will stay?
Russian lobby is directly challenged by US and French and they are losing ground on Indian market, More over French and US technology is sophisticated and superior in many ways, I agree with Charly here they are behaving odd, Some people in Russia are too scared of losing India which is not going to happen in next 50 years..And till we come up with our own stuff, we will move to buy from west.
Well may be the army will look at Arjun again since the T90 ammo is costing so much more.
While overall, prices of everything has increased world wide, I think Russia has now upped the price because it knows india is ready to pay a lot more. Rafale was a case example. It will loose out in the long run as the western tech I'd far better. I think india may move to Israel and France even more.
The sorry saga of Indian arms production.Russian lobby is directly challenged by US and French and they are losing ground on Indian market, More over French and US technology is sophisticated and superior in many ways, I agree with Charly here they are behaving odd, Some people in Russia are too scared of losing India which is not going to happen in next 50 years..
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Regarding Arjun its deginer is dead and the tank main partner 'IMI' is ban just few months before, Tank ammo deign is from late 70s but Arjun can fire Western rounds with modification or licensed produce ammo from west deign for rifled gun..
Bottom line, we may go for new western tanks or Ammo..
It is not 10 times, but it is higher than before, say 3-4 times. But we don't know if it is 3-4 times up from the 2001 price, which is normal, or regular prices from 2010 jacked up by 3-4 times as a business tactic.Actually, since you raise the concept, exactly that will lead us to the key point: while India (or at least people like you) is willing to look at at "mutual benefit" perspective, it's Russia that does NOT look at this way. Instead, Russia has been behaving like the last one leaving this "India military market party" (could be very true for them, indeed): "party is over, grab every cake and beer you can!!" Other than that, I don't know how to justify this 10-times price raising.
I don't think Malaysia has been offered F-35s. Rafale, EF, Gripen and SH are other option apart from MKMs.Malaysia: ~12 (currently 18 Su-30MKM + 18 Mig-29N, but F35 could be strong competitor as it also has F-18D)