Russia during the early 20th century

nrupatunga

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
2,310
Likes
960
@Peter thanks for letting us know about treaty of kars. I initially thought that ottomons/turks gained somewhere in crimea or near romainan border or something like that.

Also though lenin agreed to pay germany, not sure if money actually reached germany. As germany itsel;f nullified the treay of Brest-Litovsk within a year.

=====

Overall i still feel given the overall mood in europe then, even if ussr did loose "their" lands(notice the quotation marks) in its initial days, it regained soon enough.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,594
Some quotes by Stalin, and the philosophy behind it we can discuss. One must bear in mind these quotes came about at a time when, well, people weren't exactly raising daisies.


Everyone imposes his own system as far as his army can reach.

If the opposition disarms, well and good. If it refuses to disarm, we shall disarm it ourselves.

In the Soviet army it takes more courage to retreat than advance.

When we hang the capitalists they will sell us the rope we use.

I trust no one, not even myself.


@Razor
 
Last edited by a moderator:

asianobserve

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
12,846
Likes
8,556
Country flag
An ingenious Soviet (Mosocw Obklast) solution to a Mundane Soviet task of exterminating numerous enemies of the State: Gas van - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The gas van was invented in the Soviet Union[2][3][4][9][10] in 1936,[7] by Isay Berg, the head of the administrative and economic department of the NKVD of Moscow Oblast which suffocated batches of prisoners with engine fumes in a camouflaged bread van while on the drive out to the mass graves at Butovo, where the prisoners were subsequently buried.[5] According to Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, "I. D. Berg was ordered to carry out the decisions of the NKVD troika of Moscow Oblast, and Berg was decently carrying out this assignment: he was driving people to the executions by shooting. But, when in Moscow Oblast there came to be three troikas having their sessions simultaneously, the executioners could not cope with the load. They hit upon a solution: to strip the victims naked, to tie them up, plug their mouths and throw them into a closed truck, disguised from the outside as a bread van. During transportation the fuel gases came into the truck, and when delivered to the farthest [execution] ditch the arrestees were already dead.[6]". Berg denied that he was inventor of the gas van. [11][12]
Later on the NAZI's hit upon the same idea, the gas van -



Coincidence?
 
Last edited:

nrupatunga

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
2,310
Likes
960
Last edited by a moderator:

asianobserve

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
12,846
Likes
8,556
Country flag
Gas Chambers have also been used in the US to execute prisoners.

Source: Gas chamber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nice try at derailing the thread, as usual. The Soviets in Stalin's time were killing so many people that it was taking too long for the ordinary shooting squad. They "gas van" disguised as bread delivery van was invented as a method of fast tracking the extermination effort. This what makes this particular extermination method interesting.

The way I understand it was that the Americans were using their gas chambers to carry out capital punishment for convicted heinous crimes criminals. Stalin's NKVD on the other hand were carrying out the extermination for "political prisoners" (those who are opposed to Soviet rule as well as Stalin's political enemies within the Soviet political and military elite).
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,594
Nice try at derailing the thread, as usual. The Soviets in Stalin's time were killing so many people that it was taking too long for the ordinary shooting squad. They "gas van" disguised as bread delivery van was invented as a method of fast tracking the extermination effort. This what makes this particular extermination method interesting.

The way I understand it was that the Americans were using their gas chambers to carry out capital punishment for convicted heinous crimes criminals. Stalin's NKVD on the other hand were carrying out the extermination for "political prisoners" (those who are opposed to Soviet rule as well as Stalin's political enemies within the Soviet political and military elite).
Not derailing, just answering your question on "coincidence." My answer is mine, and does not come with the guarantee it will satisfy the person asking.
 

asianobserve

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
12,846
Likes
8,556
Country flag
Not derailing, just answering your question on "coincidence." My answer is mine, and does not come with the guarantee it will satisfy the person asking.
The coincidence part was for the later NAZI Germany "Gas Van" which was similar to the earlier Soviet killing machine.

Along this line of mass killings, here are some terms that should be associated with early 20th century Russia:

1. White Terror (Russia) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (1917-1923)
2. Red Terror - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (1918-1922)
3. Great Purge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (also known as the "Reign of Terror" from 1934-1940)
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,594
The coincidence part was for the later NAZI Germany "Gas Van" which was similar to the earlier Soviet killing machine.
That is the answer you wanted. The correct answer is, there exists a coincidence between Nazi Germany, USSR, and USA, when it comes to gas chambers.
 

asianobserve

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
12,846
Likes
8,556
Country flag
That is the answer you wanted. The correct answer is, there exists a coincidence between Nazi Germany, USSR, and USA, when it comes to gas chambers.

Here we go again...

I was talking about the gas "van," not gas "chamber." I am talking about a mobile killing device that was developed out of necessity to kill a lot of people, killing "on the go" if you will. The American capital punishment method does not figure out in this matter.
 

apple

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
612
Likes
174
You are right. But then Lenin was funded by Germany (and others) for his revolution (the aim being to disintegrate the Russian Empire, in line with the ideas of Prometheism).
He wasn't right about Finland owing it's independence to Lenin. You should be careful about agreeing with that poster's opinion. Finland had didn't have the organs of a nation state when Lenin "granted" Finland its independence in 1917 i.e. no army, little government. He armed Finnish Communists and allowed Russian Communists to support their attempt to seize power. The Worker's Republic of Finland (or whatever it would have been called) would have part of the USSR.

Lenin was a Marxist, he believed that nation states were bourgeoise constructions, devised to divide the proletariat of the world. Any discussion of Lenin's actions and opinions of individual states has to seen through the prism of his world view i.e. there are no nations or ethnicities.

Has "granting" of independence to Finland, and other smaller states, was consist with his Marxism as he saw himself correcting the crimes of Imperialism which he, as a Marxist, saw as being an obsolete mode of thought. However, he was a revolutionary and saw himself as part of a new stage of history. He intended to initiate world wide revolution, obviously beginning with the Soviet Union's neighbours i.e. He, himself, didn't see his actions of "granting independence", while formenting revolution as contradictory, but your (and a certain poster) discussion about Lenin giving nations independence is very contradictory as Lenin intended to destroy all nations and establish a world wide Dictatorship of the Proletariat.

You, and that other poster you are conversing with, should stop making sweeping statements without understanding history better. Also, in this case you (both) should brush up on your Marxism/ Leninism.

Prometheism is a term I haven't heard, thanks for that link.

Where did you get the idea that Imperial Germany had adopted a Polish idea? Is an interesting claim you make. But, can't see why Germany didn't fund Lenin and the Bolsheviks for the far more obvious reason reason of ending fighting on the Eastern Front in WW1... Strange, strange claim you make.

As to the multiple posters on this forum claiming that the British funded the rise of the Bolsheviks :rofl::rofl::rofl: Can understand why Indians mightn't like Britain, but it's not responsible for everything that's ever happened in the world.

It is one thing to have an independence, another to keep it. Germany saved Finland three times:

1. 1918 with Baltic sea division to help crush the reds
2. 1940 when Hitler did not allow Stalin "to settle Finland problem"
In 1918, sure Germany helped. Wouldn't go so far that they saved Finland though.

As for 1940, are you claiming that Hitler influenced Stalin (somehow) to end the Winter War? Not quite sure what you are trying to say, actually...
 

asianobserve

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
12,846
Likes
8,556
Country flag
As for 1940, are you claiming that Hitler influenced Stalin (somehow) to end the Winter War? Not quite sure what you are trying to say, actually...
NAZI Germany helped arm Finland in the so called "Continuation War" from 1041-1944 (the second Russo-Finnish War if you will after the 1939-1940 Winter War where the Goliath USSR badly lost to David Finland).
 

apple

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
612
Likes
174
NAZI Germany helped arm Finland in the so called "Continuation War" from 1041-1944 (the second Russo-Finnish War if you will after the 1939-1940 Winter War where the Goliath USSR badly lost to David Finland).
Sure, but Jouni said 1940. If what he meant was Germany started selling Finland arms in late 1940, OK. But, Hitler had allowed Stalin to occupy; tiny parts of eastern Poland, the Baltic states and Finland. From my understanding his claim that Germany saved Finland in 1940 is either; very wrong or extremely misleading.
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,594
Regarding Finland's Independence:

Lenin was a politician well versed in the demands of the realpolitik. He said of the independence of Finland: "It is impossible not to acknowledge that, which already exists. The very fact itself demands its own recognition." Lenin knew Finland and the Finnish people very well, after spending a few years here hiding from the Tsar's gendarmes.

The recognition of the independence of Finland, signed by Lenin in 1917 , was not a decision imposed on him, but rather an logical extension of the national policy Lenin had adopted. This policy was based on the idea of the nation's right to self-determination, so it was only logical that the Finnish people should have the right to decide their own fate themselves.
In 1906 Lenin pledged to the people of Tampere that after the revolution was successful his party would honour the nation's right to self-determination. In Lenin regarded Finland and the Finnish people very highly and thought that Finland was one of the most highly developed democracies in existence. He had come to rely on Finnish support in the struggle against Tsar, the mutual enemy.

Read more (Finnish source): Please title this page. (indep.htm)

Finland's response to the onset of the First World War in August 1914 was somewhat apathetic. Its populace was split in its support of German or Russian forces, despite Finland forming a semi-autonomous part of the Russian Empire. Consequently only a few thousand Finnish citizens enlisted in the Russian cause.
In the wake of the February Revolution of 1917 in Russia the Finnish National Assembly demanded independence in all but name. This was rejected by Russia's Provisional Government which responded by dissolving Finland's National Assembly in July 1917. The ensuing elections did not produce the result the Russian government hoped for, with its production of a decidedly pro-German majority.

In December a full declaration of independence by the Finnish government was accepted by the new Soviet government. A formal treaty was signed between Finland and the Soviet government in October 1920.
Read more (unknown source): First World War.com - Primary Documents - Soviet Recognition of Finland's Independence, 18 December 1917
 

jouni

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
3,900
Likes
1,138
Sure, but Jouni said 1940. If what he meant was Germany started selling Finland arms in late 1940, OK. But, Hitler had allowed Stalin to occupy; tiny parts of eastern Poland, the Baltic states and Finland. From my understanding his claim that Germany saved Finland in 1940 is either; very wrong or extremely misleading.
I will tell you all, when I have time. Now I am in Austria for work trip. Just briefly, Finns loved Czars. Few years ago were made 5 hour documentary or "our" Czars.

http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=VvCGgDDpWHM
 

apple

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
612
Likes
174
I will tell you all, when I have time. Now I am in Austria for work trip.
Enjoy Austria, it's a nice place. Are you in Vienna. Hunderwasser Hus is awesome (and a bit sad in that every other apartment block in the World didn't copy/ get inspired by it) and the Bermuda Triangle is fun.

Just briefly, Finns loved Czars.
Hmm... that's quite a Razoresque(/ he who shall be named) style sweeping generalisation. Jääkärit didn't love the Czar, neither did anyone in the Punakaarti, or SDP, or the Nuorsuomalaiset, actually the majority of the Valkokaarti probably wouldn't have loved the Czar either.
 

jouni

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
3,900
Likes
1,138
Enjoy Austria, it's a nice place. Are you in Vienna. Hunderwasser Hus is awesome (and a bit sad in that every other apartment block in the World didn't copy/ get inspired by it) and the Bermuda Triangle is fun.

Hmm... that's quite a Razoresque(/ he who shall be named) style sweeping generalisation. Jääkärit didn't love the Czar, neither did anyone in the Punakaarti, or SDP, or the Nuorsuomalaiset, actually the majority of the Valkokaarti probably wouldn't have loved the Czar either.
We saw something better than Hundertwasser, he is great though. We had five day tour to study 5 star hotels, to see if we could do something similar in Lapland. This was the best. Made me feel like being in a Bond-movie. Next G7 meeting is also taken place in there.

http://www.schloss-elmau.de/the-schloss-elmau-experience/

I try to write in few days about Russia fin history.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top