Russia and China relations

Discussion in 'China' started by I-G, Jun 30, 2009.


Do you think the Russians are playing double game with India?

  1. Yes

  2. No

  3. Can't say

  1. I-G

    I-G Tihar Jail Banned

    Jun 16, 2009
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    Russia, China to hold military exercises in July: Report

    Moscow, June 29: Russia and China will hold joint military exercises next month, a top Russian military official said today, as the giant neighbours work towards tighter cooperation.

    "The head of the Russian and Chinese military delegations agreed that 1,300 soliders from each side would participate," said the deputy army chief, Lieutenant General Sergei Antonov, adding that 20 Russian war planes would take part.

    The massive five-day exercises, dubbed Peace Mission 2009, are to focus on anti-terrorism and will take place on both countries' territories July 22-26, Antonov told the state news agency.

    The two countries are in their third round of talks to hammer out the details of the joint manoeuvres, counting 2,600 men, he said.

    Russia and China made a show of their strengthening ties last month when Chinese President Hu Jintao visited Moscow for a major bilateral summit.

    The friendly diplomacy is a marked change from the later decades of the Cold War era, when the Soviet Union and China clashed for supremacy in the Communist world.

    In recent years, the countries have taken great strides to step up trade and put old rivalries behind them, ending a decades-long dispute over their 4,300-kilometre border just last year.

    The two held joint exercises in 2005 and 2007 under the auspices of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, a regional security group consisting of China, Russia and four Central Asian states.

    Russia China military exercise news-Russia, China to hold military exercises in July: Report
  3. Koji

    Koji New Member

    May 24, 2009
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    2600 soldiers plus armor and jets....for anti-terrorism??
  4. ejazr

    ejazr Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

    Oct 8, 2009
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    Hyderabad and Sydney
    Putin Travels to China to Expand $100-Billion Energy Relations

    Putin Travels to China to Expand $100-Billion Energy Relations -

    Oct. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Prime Minister Vladimir Putin arrives in China today bidding to strengthen a relationship forged by Russian oil exports to Asia’s largest energy consumer.

    Russia, which this year sealed Chinese oil contracts valued at $100 billion, is now negotiating an agreement that would make China OAO Gazprom’s biggest customer for natural gas. Its communist neighbor currently buys no Russian gas.

    The two countries, which were on the brink of war 40 years ago despite a shared ideology, are deepening ties based on mutual economic gain. Bilateral trade totaled a record $56 billion in 2008, a six-fold increase in six years, according to Russia’s Federal Customs Service.

    “Political ties are very good, probably the best since China’s communist revolution in 1949,” said Fyodor Lukyanov, the editor of Moscow-based Russia in Global Affairs magazine. “There’s never been such closeness in position on major international issues, and there are no more territorial disputes.”

    China and Russia, the world’s third- and ninth-largest economies respectively, hold two of the five permanent seats on the United Nations Security Council as well as membership in the nascent BRIC group that also includes India and Brazil. The former foes, which share a border more than 4,000 kilometers (2,500 miles) long, broke a three-decade diplomatic deadlock in 1989 when then Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev visited Beijing.

    Putin, 57, is set to meet with Chinese President Hu Jintao and Prime Minister Wen Jiabao in two days of talks that start tomorrow. He’ll also attend a meeting of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, a regional group that also includes four former Soviet republics in Central Asia.

    Oil Deal

    Russia agreed in February to supply China with oil for 20 years in return for a $25 billion credit to state oil company OAO Rosneft and the government’s oil pipeline monopoly OAO Transneft. The total value of oil accords signed with Chinese companies this year amounts to about $100 billion, the Russian government said in a statement released before Putin’s trip.

    Transneft plans to finish the first segment of its East Siberia-Pacific Ocean pipeline this year, enabling Russia to begin sending the fuel directly to China. Oil and other mineral products account for 56 percent of trade, with Russia currently making fuel deliveries by rail and through a pipeline that passes through Kazakhstan.

    Gazprom, which aims to become a global energy company beyond its traditional markets in Europe, plans to build two gas pipelines to China that might one day deliver as much as 80 billion cubic meters annually, or more than half its current European exports. Gazprom and China National Petroleum Corp. last month initialed an accord in advance of Putin’s visit.

    ‘Ideal Outcome’

    “The ideal outcome would be a similar deal to that agreed between China and Russia for oil,” Chris Weafer, chief strategist at UralSib Financial Corp., said in a note to clients. “We could see a timeline not only for the pipelines but also for the development of the Kovykta gas deposit.”

    Gazprom has not yet completed a deal to buy oil producer TNK-BP’s stake in Kovykta, an east Siberian field that holds enough gas to supply Asia for five years.

    China, in its drive for new energy sources to fuel the world’s fastest-growing major economy, is also reaching out to landlocked Central Asian producers that until recently were dependent on Russia’s pipeline systems to bring their oil and gas to market. CNPC plans to finish building a gas pipeline to Turkmenistan, Central Asia’s largest gas producer, this year.

    “Russia sees this as a foray into its traditional zone of interests,” Lukyanov said. “Russia tries to compensate its economic weakness with political initiatives. But China is hard to attract if it doesn’t see their necessity.”

    Shanghai Group

    The Shanghai Cooperation Organization, whose prime ministers meet in Beijing on Oct. 14, is at risk of becoming irrelevant unless it takes on a greater economic role, said Alexander Lukin, director of the East Asian Studies Center at the Moscow State Institute of International Relations.

    “SCO doesn’t have the image of an organization that can make any economic difference,” Lukin said. China may lose interest in the group as a forum for doing business and give priority to developing bilateral relations, he said.

    At the organization’s last meeting in June, Hu said China would supply member countries with $10 billion in credits to help weather the financial crisis. Besides Russia and China, the group comprises Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan.

    North Korea

    Putin comes to China a week after Wen, on a visit to Pyongyang, won a conditional agreement for North Korea to return to six-party negotiations, which include Russia, aimed at eliminating North Korea’s nuclear weapons program. Russia and China have been the reclusive regime’s closest partners during the past six decades.

    While Russia and China face a “delicate balance” where their interests overlap in Central Asia, the two former Cold War rivals have more that binds than divides them, said Zhu Feng, a Beijing University professor who specializes on international security issues.

    “The two countries are cautiously but passionately pushing ahead for greater cooperation,” Zhu said. “Oil shipments are a very strong economic bond.”
  5. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

    May 20, 2009
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    Russia is on the way to be another S-Arabia.....anyhow it is a good thing to USA and CHina.
  6. arya

    arya Senior Member Senior Member

    Sep 14, 2009
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    what will usa do if russia and china will come closer
  7. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

    May 20, 2009
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    USA will do nothing....China has much more common interest with USA than it with Russia in fact.....
  8. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

    Sep 25, 2009
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    I remember watching a television program where the US officials (were they CIA?) said that they were very unhappy with US geography compared to China's position. He said that the US is bordered by Canada and Mexico. However, China is adjacent to Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Russia, India, Vietnam, etc. He said that China's location is perfect for economic trade; while the US is stuck with only Canada and Mexico.

    He also said that US geography is perfect for a war. The two oceans and two weak neighbors protect the United States and allow the US to focus on offense.

    He said, however, that if there is no war then China's geographical position is far superior to the US. I guess the analyst was right. It's easy to pump billions of cubic feet of gas from Russia to China through a pipeline. It's not so easy to sell Russian gas to the US mainland.
  9. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

    May 25, 2009
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    Holy Hell
    And India too.

    If that's the case then India has a much better geographical location compared to China. We have 2 crazy neighbours. Nevertheless, we are the closest to Middle Eastern Oil. Easy access to CAR oil. Easy access to Indian Ocean, Atlantic Ocean and the Pacific Ocean. Excellent access to Africa, the next best source of raw materials.

    Since both our big neighbours are trigger happy, we can focus on offense too, instead of having to travel half way around the globe to fight. :!13:
  10. Koji

    Koji New Member

    May 24, 2009
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    The thing India lacks geography wise are close, rich-developed economies pumpings hundreds of billions of dollars for investment. Read: Taiwan, SK, Japan.
  11. IBRIS

    IBRIS Senior Member Senior Member

    Aug 6, 2009
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    Chinese version of Russian jet endangers bilateral relations.

    Published 20 April, 2010, 07:58
    Edited 21 April, 2010, 08:00

    Despite holding the position as one of the world’s biggest economies, China seems unwilling to shed its reputation for producing cheap replicas.

    And one of their more ambitious copycat efforts may put a strain on Russia-China relations.

    “This Chinese plane is simply a Russian design stuffed with local electronics,” says Maksim Pyadushkin from the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technology about the Chinese J11B jet’s resemblance to the Russian Su-27. “It's a knock-off.”

    Last year, Russian aircraft sales internationally topped $3 billion – second only to the US. But others too want a slice of the aviation pie.

    Vadim Kozyulin, program director for conventional arms from the Russian Center for Policy Studies, says that fake Su-27s are widely offered in the world arms market. “Sooner or later, Russian arms traders will face competition from the Chinese colleagues,” he told RT.

    China was given the design plans for the Russian fighter jet in 1995, when it promised to buy 200 kits and assemble them domestically. After building 100 planes, the Chinese said the Russian plane did not meet specifications, only for a copycat version soon to appear – "Made in China" – without copyright.

    The threat from China is real, and it will be difficult for the Russian aviation industry to maintain its lofty position, and soar further unless it manages to better protect its intellectual rights and also find new ways of co-operating with its eastern neighbor.

    Although it made its maiden flight over 30 years ago, the Su-27 remains the bedrock of the Russian air force, and is highly popular abroad.

    “I don't think anyone who's flown on the SU-27 can ask for a different plane, unless we are talking about a new generation jet,” believes Lt. Colonel Andrey Alekseyev, Air Force Pilot. “It's maneuverable and has a huge range.”

    Some are calling for calm over the controversy. While the similarities between the two planes are clear, experts say the Chinese J11B does not have the latest Russian high-tech features and will be no match for it on the international market.

    The best way to fight copyright violations is to be technologically ahead of your rivals, claims Maksim Pyadushkin from the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technology. “The biggest problem for Russia is that it has been living off the legacy of the Soviet Union, and soon its technology may no longer be the world leader,” he asserts.

    Rather than a continuing dogfight over the copycat plane, it is possible that Russia and China may yet settle the matter amicably – at the highest political level.

    But in the shady world of international weapons copyright, similar cases are sure to follow.
    Singh and LETHALFORCE like this.
  12. Super Commando Dhruva

    Super Commando Dhruva Regular Member

    Feb 7, 2010
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    China has eye on Siberia


    Legendary scenes of determined settlers bravely moving west in a journey to fulfill America's 'manifest destiny' are being quietly resurrected. Only this time, Chinese migrants, not American settlers, are driving west into the cold, forbidding environment of the Russian Far East and Siberia.

    As with any mass migration, especially one involving foreign nationals crossing sovereign borders, Chinese migration into Russia raises a number of significant questions for Moscow. Should Chinese migrants, many of them poor and uneducated, be permitted to stay in Russia? What will be the impact of Chinese migration upon Russian society? More importantly, what are Beijing's long—term intentions in the Far East and Siberia?

    Many Russian officials have expressed fear that uninhibited Chinese migration into the Russian Far East and Siberia could lead to an eventual Chinese 'land grab.' Given the recent progress made in Sino—Russian defense, energy, technology and trade relations, what would motivate China to pursue such an aggressive and potentially devastating regional strategy?

    The answer to this question is simple — China desperately needs the region's natural resources to achieve its dual goals of Asian supremacy and global influence.

    A History of Mistrust and Suspicion

    In the 19th century, China reluctantly ceded control of the Far East and Siberia to Russia. During the past 50 years, however, Chinese territorial claims to the area have steadily increased. Chinese communist founder Mao Zedong and leader Deng Xiaoping both publicly asserted that the Russian cities of Vladivostok and Khabarovsk were Chinese. Some Chinese historians have claimed that the current China—Russia borders are unfair and that Russia 'stole' the Far East by force.

    'The Chinese view this region [Siberia] historically as their territory,' said Larisa Zabroskaya, an Asia expert. Moreover, Russia's Far East population increasingly identifies itself with the east — looking to South Korea, Japan and China for guidance on matters of governance and culture. As a result, the region has become less connected to Moscow and the ideals of 'Euro Asia.'

    In Moscow, apprehension and uneasiness concerning China's influence in the Far East has gradually increased. In 2002, Russian President Vladimir Putin warned, 'If people here [Far East] will not regenerate their region and economy, they will all speak the Asian language.'

    Russia's Treasure Chest

    Russia possesses the world's largest proven reserves of natural gas and is the second largest oil producer behind only Saudi Arabia with Siberia holding the overwhelmingly majority of these strategic reserves. The Siberian region possesses 80 percent of Russia's oil; 85 percent of its natural gas; 80 percent of its coal and 40 percent of its timber. Adding to the region's importance, valuable raw materials such as nickel, zinc, cooper, aluminum, ores, and mercury are plentiful throughout the Russian Far East and Siberia.

    Siberia's fresh water supply is unmatched in the Eastern Hemisphere. Baikal Lake alone holds one—fifth of the world's fresh water reserves with the Ob and Lena rivers providing enormous hydro—electric power potential. Moreover, dense forests cover an area of 800 thousand square miles translating into over 40 billion cubic meters of timber.

    Over the past decade, Moscow has adopted an economic policy that has resulted in a dangerous dependence on the region's natural resources to propel the country's growth. As a result, Russia's influence in global affairs is now clearly linked to the successful development and exploitation of the region's natural resources.

    China's Immediate Needs

    The temptation to seize the Russian Far East and Siberia may be too much for China to resist, since the region would offer the country an opportunity to achieve increased energy autonomy and replace its own depleted natural resources. Many coal mines in China are nearly exhausted, with further exploration an expensive and time consuming alternative. China also imports more oil than it produces —— a significant barrier for a country of its size with designs for regional dominance and global influence.

    Misuse of China's forests by the country's timber industry and illegal logging now threaten large portions of China. Water shortages are more common, as drought, rising demand, and pollution take hold. Beijing recently identified one hundred Chinese cities as 'water deficient.' Hydro—electric plants which produce energy for Chinese industry have seen flow rates drop to historically low levels.

    Taken collectively, these developments have forced China to identify and secure reliable sources of energy and raw materials globally [i.e., Africa, South America and North America] and within its Asian periphery.

    Russian Depopulation of the Far East and Siberia

    Russian depopulation and resulting deindustrialization of the Far East and Siberia continue to haunt Moscow. The precipitous decline in the region's population over the past decade can be traced to the lifting of Soviet—era controls on residency and place of employment in the early 1990's. This caused an 'out—migration' of over two million Russians leaving many areas entirely unpopulated. As a result, once vibrant towns created during the construction of the Trans—Siberian Railway have been deserted and forgotten.

    Chinese migrants entering the region to replace the departing Russians have encountered harsh resistance from the remaining population. Sergei Darkin, a government official from the city of Vladivostok, says, 'We have to ensure that there is no large—scale assimilation. The Chinese who come here have to go back again.' Other Russian officials agree, saying Chinese migrants contribute little to local economies, evade taxes and are involved in illegal activities. Beijing has countered these accusations saying its migrants spread prosperity on both sides of the boarder.

    But trying to make Chinese migrants return home may just delay the inevitable. Vladimir Yakovlev, Russia's regional Asian development director, recently commented that Russia's total population had fallen to 145 million — a decline of 1.7 million people over the past two years. If the Russian population continues to decline at the current rate, some experts estimate it could drop to 100 million by 2050. Despite draconian population control measures, the Chinese population continues to increase, placing rising pressure on Beijing to find open space. Even a very slow increase from a baseline well over a billion souls provides a lot of new people.

    Alternatives for China

    Recognizing the importance of the Russian Far East and Siberia, China could pursue several theoretical alternatives to secure the region's burgeoning natural resources.

    First, China could decide to take conventional military action, embarking on its own 'Chinese Blitzkrieg' to secure the Russian Far East and Siberia. Such a large—scale invasion would almost certainly elicit a nuclear response from Moscow. This is something both countries would want to avoid, since any large—scale nuclear exchange would all but destroy the area's natural resources, not to mention other obvious drawbacks. Although weakened by the breakup of the Soviet Union, Russia's conventional forces remain formidable, capable of confronting any Chinese aggression.

    Second, China could adopt a policy of 'gradual assimilation' and 'soft influence.' Under this scenario, Beijing would sponsor increased migration, hoping that the Russian—Chinese population would eventually be capable of exerting influence over regional politics and thinking. Beijing could then use this opportunity to question many of the boarder treaties now in place, demanding concessions from Moscow.

    Third, China could choose to nurture the current bilateral partnership, allowing Russia to develop the infrastructure necessary for the production and transport of oil, natural gas, water and timber. Of course, this alternative assumes that trust and sincere cooperation between the two countries will continue to deepen. Any sudden fracture or visible weakness in the bilateral alliance could be perceived by China as a threat to their national security, eliciting a sudden and profound economic, political or military response.

    Fourth, China could begin to covertly drill for oil and natural gas in remote regions of eastern Siberia where energy resources remain unexploited, hoping that Moscow would 'look the other way.' Following a course of action similar to its South China Sea policy with Japan, small teams of highly—trained Chinese geologists, engineers and military personnel would be inserted into Russian territory on energy exploration missions.

    After consideration of all of these alternatives, a more likely Chinese strategy will involve the continued pursuit of bilateral agreements in the areas of energy development, infrastructure and production which includes the construction of pipelines, roads, and railways. China will play a waiting game with Russia, hoping the country will eventually implode from a lethal combination of ethnic strife, government corruption, Islamic rebellion, fiscal mismanagement, and a commodities—driven economy that lacks diversity. When a total collapse does occur and chaos ensues, China will move in a deliberate and swift fashion across its 4,000 km boarder with Russia to secure what it can of the Russian Far East and Siberia.

    United States Concerns

    Any increased involvement by China in the Russian Far East and Siberia would have enormous geo—strategic ramifications for the United States.

    Possibly realizing the growing importance of Russia in an increasingly energy dependant world, U.S. Energy Secretary Samuel Bodman visited Moscow in May seeking to promote energy cooperation between the two countries. In response to comments that Russian oil exports to the U.S. have reached 230,000 barrels per day, Bodman noted, 'It should be ten times that or more, given the reserves that are here.' He also noted, 'It is in the interests of the U.S. to have more diverse sources of [oil] supply. It's a compelling case.'

    Despite comments of this nature from high—level American officials, the American intelligence community remains fixated on Taiwan, viewing China's need for reunification as the country's major foreign policy goal. For its part, Beijing has gone to great lengths to reinforce this perception, making occasional hostile remarks and releasing government documents that support nothing less than total Taiwanese capitulation.

    But has the time come for the American intelligence community to give equal importance to Chinese intentions concerning Russia? In short, would it be more beneficial for China to control strategic natural resources such as oil, natural gas, timber and water that are abundant in Russia, or continue its pursuit of reunification with Taiwan? This is a perplexing question, but one that must be asked.


    Whatever China's strategy, Sino—Russian relations merit our attention. A future confrontation between the two regional powers is a growing possibility, as Russia moves east to replace depleted western Siberia energy reserves and China looks west to secure the region's natural resources for itself.

    In April, Moscow indicated that it wanted geological exploration of oil deposits in eastern Siberia to begin immediately to confirm the size of its oil deposits. 'According to our estimates, there should be enough resources to supply oil to China and the Pacific coast,' said Russian Energy Minister Victor Khristenko.

    If Moscow is not careful, it may not have a decision to make.

    Frederick W. Stakelbeck, Jr. is a freelance writer based in Philadelphia.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2010
  13. Super Commando Dhruva

    Super Commando Dhruva Regular Member

    Feb 7, 2010
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    BLAGOVESHCHENSK, Russia -- Across the Amur River, which forms the border between Russia and China, the city of Heihe gleams. The brand-new Yuan Dun shopping center juts into the water, its name written in Cyrillic letters large enough to be seen the half-mile across the river. At night, the Vegas-like lights of Heihe's downtown reflect in the river, and a spotlight makes circles in the sky, like a car dealership trying to draw customers.

    Among Russians in Blagoveshchensk, a two-day train ride east of Irkutsk, the sight of Heihe across the water is a source of both admiration and defensiveness. During my time here I was told over and over that although Heihe looks impressive from a distance, up close the city can be dirty and chaotic. Others mentioned that that the central government in Beijing lavishes extra attention on Heihe -- other cities of its size don't have those bright lights -- because it's on the border. Russians have seen this sort of thing before: "It's a Potemkin village," said Mikhail Kukharenko, the Russian head of the Chinese-government-run Confucius Institute in Blagoveshchensk.

    At the same time, Russians love Heihe. Several ferries a day carry over tourists and shoppers looking for cheap Chinese electronics and clothes, and so many people made their livelihood in the "suitcase trade" -- buying cheap things in China to sell for a profit in Russia-that Blagoveshchensk's downtown has a monument to the traders, complete with an inscription that reads, "For the hard work and optimism of the entrepreneurs of the Amur," referring to the region that includes Blagoveshchensk.

    For most of the last century, this border was closed. In 1969, the Soviet Union and China even fought a battle over a disputed island farther downstream. Hundreds of soldiers died.

    But it reopened in 1989, and the fact that ordinary Russians and Chinese could cross the border freely added a new wrinkle to the already complex relationship between the two powers. In particular, Russians were forced to confront an uncomfortable demographic fact: This part of their country was strategically important, badly underpopulated, and right next to a China bursting at the seams.

    The Russian Far East, the eastern edge of Siberia that borders China and the Pacific Ocean, has only 6 million people, and that number is dropping fast. Just across the border, though, the three provinces of northeastern China have about 110 million people. Meanwhile, the Russian Far East has substantial reserves of oil, natural gas, and coal, which China needs to run its supercharged economy.

    All that has led many Russians to fear that China will eventually exert control over the region. "f we do not step up the level of activity of our work [in the Russian Far East], then in the final analysis we can lose everything," Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said last year. Kukharenko of the Confucius Institute spelled it out for me: "It's a law of physics, a vacuum has to be filled," he said. "If there are no Russian people here, there will be Chinese people."

    That's why Russia has serious misgivings about its neighbors to the south, as a trip along the border makes plain. While Beijing has moved aggressively to court Russian visitors and business, Russia's central government has largely neglected the areas that act as the gateway to China. The few new buildings in Blagoveshchensk -- some shopping centers and a high-rise hotel -- were built by a Chinese company.

    While Blagoveshchensk is relatively prosperous, at least by the standards of Russian cities of its size, Heihe has positively boomed. It was just a village in 1989, and now it has 200,000 people, about the same as Blagoveshchensk. And in contrast to Heihe's glitzy, welcoming facade, Blagoveshchensk's barely lighted waterfront promenade features a Soviet-era World War II memorial that consists of a gunship with its barrels aimed across the river, toward China.

    In one telling episode, in 2007, in an apparent attempt to play up its Russian connection and appeal to tourists, Heihe placed garbage cans that were designed to look like Russian matryoshka dolls around the city. Some excessively sensitive Russians saw this as an insult-Russian culture was trash. The mini-scandal made national TV news in Russia, and the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs protested. So Heihe's government painted the trash cans over. (I later saw panda-shaped trash cans in another Chinese city, which suggests that the matryoshkas were, in fact, a friendly gesture.) In Blagoveshchensk, meanwhile, a new government-run cultural center was originally named Albazin, after the fort built by early Russian settlers to defend the territory from China, until local historians petitioned the government to change it, saying the name was unnecessarily provocative.

    In several small ways, the Russian government has made it difficult for Russians and Chinese to interact. Heihe has street signs in Russian, but there is almost no Chinese to be seen in Blagoveshchensk. While Russians can cross into Heihe visa-free for a short visit, Chinese can't do the same to Blagoveshchensk. The local government gave the license to operate ferries that cross the river to a politically connected local monopoly, which charges more than $40 for the 10-minute ride. (Chinese visiting Russia use a different company, which charges much less.) China has offered to pay for a bridge between the two cities, but the Russian side has dragged its feet for years, said Yevgeny Kuzmin, a local journalist. "It's always the Chinese side that takes the initiative," he said.

    The Russian government recently made the suitcase trade much more difficult by reducing the amount of clothes, electronics, and other consumer goods that Russians can bring back into the country duty-free and the frequency with which they can take such trips. One city official, who spoke to me on condition of anonymity, said that while Heihe's government is promoting the idea of Heihe and Blagoveshchensk as "twin cities," Blagoveshchensk's government is balking. "Heihe is always pushing this relationship more," she said. "They get a lot of money from the central government, so they have lots of proposals and ideas for programs, but we don't have the money for that."

    The central government has given Blagoveshchensk funds for one thing, though: a new waterfront. Moscow has committed about $200 million for a five-year program to create a completely new waterfront facade for the city, a spokeswoman for the city told me. The plan will entail dumping sand into the river to add nearly 100 acres of prime riverfront real estate and then building brand-new high-rises along the new shore.

    I asked if the new plan called for lights as impressive as Heihe's. "We'll do our best," she said with a smile. But the World War II memorial, with the gun pointed at China? It's staying.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2010
  14. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

    May 20, 2009
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    don't forget russian's nuke weapons.

    of course, If Russian had not nuke weapons, Russia would have been repeled to east Europe long ago.
  15. ajtr

    ajtr Veteran Member Veteran Member

    Oct 2, 2009
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    With russian population rapidly declining and its future population will come from central asia and china.By 2020 Russia will be declining fast.
  16. Super Commando Dhruva

    Super Commando Dhruva Regular Member

    Feb 7, 2010
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    Why the restless Chinese are warming to Russia's frozen east


    Russia's Far East is emptying of people but is very mineral rich, says David Blair

    The endless silver birch forests of the Russian Far East might appear so desolate and windswept that no one could possibly be interested in them. Yet the vast swath of territory between Lake Baikal and Vladivostok may become a new theatre of confrontation between Russia and China in the decades ahead.

    For now, the two giant neighbours have been thrust together by their shared suspicion of America and they cooperate as tactical allies, working in the United Nations Security Council to contain Washington's power. But this affinity is based on little more than having the same rival. The empty lands of the Russian Far East, far closer to Beijing than Moscow, contain major sources of tension between the two powers.

    This is where the headlong decline of Russia's population is having its most dramatic impact. Year by year, a region that was always largely devoid of human beings is remorselessly losing its last inhabitants.

    Only 6.7 million people live in the Far East region, far less than the population of Greater London, and 14 per cent fewer than in the late 1980s. They are scattered across a homeland so vast that it almost defies comprehension. Add together Britain, France and Germany and then multiply their combined areas by five and they would still be smaller than the Russian Far East.

    Moreover, more than a third of the area's last inhabitants are concentrated in only nine towns. The vast tracts between these isolated population centres are empty. And even in the towns, the population is falling: the Russian Far East is forecast to have only 4.5 million people by 2015.

    Meanwhile, on the other side of the border, the picture could scarcely be more different. Of China's total population of 1.3 billion, at least 100 million inhabit the three provinces of Manchuria, directly adjacent to Russia. This means that Manchuria already has a population density 62 times greater than the Russian Far East. This vast disparity between the neighbours, unmatched anywhere else in the world, can only grow in the years ahead. This would probably create tension even without another crucial factor.

    China has an insatiable appetite for the world's natural resources to sustain an economic boom that powers ahead despite the global downturn. Official figures released yesterday showed that China's economy managed an annual growth rate of 7.9 per cent in the second quarter of this year.

    The quest for raw materials is the central goal of the country's foreign policy. And virtually every natural resource imaginable is found just over the border. Here, beneath steppe and tundra, are large reserves of natural gas, oil, diamonds and gold, while millions of square miles of birch and pine provide immense supplies of timber.
    All this amounts to an astonishing combination: a densely packed country trying to keep its economy roaring ahead by laying its hands on natural resources, living alongside a largely empty region with huge mineral wealth and fewer inhabitants year on year. Russia and China might operate a tactical alliance, but there is already tension between them over the Far East. Moscow is wary of large numbers of Chinese settlers moving into this region, bringing timber and mining companies in their wake.

    After the Soviet Union's collapse in 1991, Moscow lost much of its control over Russia's most remote regions. The great achievement of Vladimir Putin, now the prime minister, was to assert the Kremlin's authority once again by rebuilding the power of the state.

    But will this be sustainable in the Far East? There is no serious prospect of China invading the empty lands to the north or formally seeking to annex them. Instead, a steady flow of Chinese migrants and investment into the region might achieve this outcome by stealth. Russia faces the prospect of losing control by inches over the eastern third of the country.

    Tension between the two powers in this part of the world is not new. Territorial wrangles in the Far East ranked among the prime causes of the Sino-Soviet split during the Cold War. In the late 1960s, frontier disputes spilled over into military clashes that claimed hundreds of lives. At one point, the confrontation became so heated that Leonid Brezhnev considered a pre-emptive nuclear strike against China and sounded out President Nixon's administration in Washington to see whether this option would be tolerated. America replied with an emphatic "no" and the Nixon administration skilfully exploited the opportunity created by Sino-Soviet rivalry.

    America's opening to China and the restoration of diplomatic ties in 1972, combined with détente with the Soviet Union and the first arms control treaty, were the outcomes. Because they were at loggerheads with each other, China and the Soviet Union each calculated that they needed better relations with America.

    Something similar could happen in the decades ahead. If Russia begins losing control over the Far East to a resurgent China, the Kremlin will have to seek America's help. While Mr Putin's driving purpose is to show that Russia has the strength to stand alone, in the end America may be an indispensable ally to contain a rising China. Those steadily emptying forests in the Far East explain why.
  17. amoy

    amoy Senior Member Senior Member

    Jan 17, 2010
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    China has to pay hard currency for anything from Russia, from natural resources to raw materials. It's all about business.

    It's a daydream for Chinese to regain control over that part of Siberia like hundreds of years ago. The border demarcation has been fossilized. There're Chinese migrants in Russia but Russians are generally xenophobic. Therefore Chinese either as merchants or laborers can hardly settle down.
  18. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

    Apr 17, 2009
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    Geo-political and Geo-strategic Designs of China and Russia in Central Asia

    Geo-political and Geo-strategic Designs of China and Russia in Central Asia: Implications for USA and rest of the region.

    Central Asia is full of natural resources of oil and gas. It has become geo-political and geo-strategic flashpoint for the Russia, China and the least not the least US. All the countries need easy and smooth supply of oil and gas for their respective national economies. It is the lesson of international politics and power game that “Conflicting” geo-political and geo-strategic realties make “unending enmity into cemented friendship”. Russia and China do not like the increasing socio-economic and geo-strategic influence of the US in the Central Asian countries.

    In the every corner of the world, people and countries alike are afraid of the unilateral “Superpower Phobia” of USA. From Bulgaria to Romania, Azerbaijan to Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan to Turkey, Georgia to Algeria and Nigeria to Afghanistan and the last not the least Iraq the hectic military deployment and establishment of new bases of the US especially after the 9/11 has created colossal geo-political and geo-strategic changes around the globe. The most significant of these changes is the emergence of possible new geo-political and geo-strategic ties between China and Russia.

    The U.S. policy of politically and militarily penetrating Central Asia has multiple interrelated geo-strategic purposes too, the main ones being:

    To increase the political influence and military presence in most of the Central Asia region so that to stop “Re-Establishment Of Russian Hegemony” over its ’Near Abroad”, and if possible to contribute toward Russia's long-term decline and ultimate disintegration.

    To use its effective military presence in Central Asia to threaten “China's western Borders”, thereby to round out U.S. military encirclement of the “Asian Dragon” and thus to gradually decrease its political, economic, and military capabilities as a potential rival and economic threat to the United States in the future. Central Asia, being in the "Backyards" of both China and Russia, is militarily much more important to both the countries than it is to the U.S.

    Hence both Beijing and Moscow would be willing to take greater risks and, if need be, pay a higher price in military confrontation with the U.S. over issues in Central Asia.

    China and Russia have only grudgingly tolerated the US strategic presence in Central Asia. Both are clearly concerned that permanent American bases in the region would be primarily designed to limit “Beijing’s and Moscow’s Own Influence” in Central Asia.

    The US base issue appears to be an increasingly sensitive topic for Russian leaders. Moscow accepted US bases in Central Asia only for the duration of the Afghan anti-terrorism operation, and for not an unlimited time. The “Manas Base” being built in Kyrgyzstan base is 250 miles from the western Chinese border.

    With US bases to the east in Japan, to the south in South Korea, and Washington's military support for Taiwan, China may feel encircled.

    To uproot the Taliban and other terrorists in the region. No doubt the region is also rich in energy resources, and the United States has recently supported a new oil pipeline from Baku, Azerbaijan, to Ceyhan, Turkey. The author of “The New Great Game: Blood and Oil in Central Asia” Lutz Klevema is of the opinion that the United States is really after the region’s oil. But others say the U.S. presence in Central Asia is aimed more at curbing the influence of Moscow in the region. “A fundamental objective” of the U.S. government is to prevent any neo-imperial revival.

    To take steps in Central Asia and its environs aimed simultaneously at increasing the “Diversity Of Oil And Gas Supplies” for the U.S. and at minimizing China's influence in Central Asia, especially to limit its access to oil and gas from that region.

    Right after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Washington enticed the Central Asia republics, through financial rewards, into agreeing to joint military exercises with U.S. troops and to block the possible geo-political and geo-strategic influences of China and Russia.

    Great power and blame game started with the increasing military bases of US in most of Central Asian countries especially after the 9/11. But now both the countries realized the dangerous multidimensional implications of the US increasing military influence in the region. That was why Russia and China took a joint stance against the US dangerous interests in Central Asia region on the eve of the recent G8 summit.

    Both the countries again took combined stance against the persistent dirty power politics of uni-polarism. The Shanghai Cooperation Organisation [SCO], a grouping of China, Russia and four Central Asian republics, issued an unprecedented statement at a summit meeting on July 5 2005 in Kazakhstan calling on the United States to set a deadline for the removal of its military bases in Central Asia. Three days later, the lower house of the Russian parliament ratified a 15-year bilateral agreement between Russia and Kyrgyzstan to double the number of Russian troops at its airbase at Kant, east of Bishkek.

    The SCO declaration demonstrates that Russia and China are taking tentative steps to challenge the US military presence in Central Asia.

    The hawks sitting in the current establishment of Mr. Bush the President of US in Washington and Pentagon took a swift steps to defuse the aims of joint statements of Russia and China and U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld traveled to the region to shore up support for maintaining its bilateral agreements with the key players of the region.

    Over the past several years, Washington’s presence in Central Asia has provoked growing nervousness among the regional countries. While the invasion of Afghanistan was camouflaged as a war to eradicate terrorism, the true aim was to realize long-held US strategic ambitions to deploy military forces for the first time into the Central Asian territories of the former Soviet Union and attempt to assert dominance over the resource-rich area. From the bases it now controls, the US is able to exert a continuous threat against countries in the region, including Russia, China and Iran.

    But it is seemed that people and even rulers did not impress with the initiatives and promises made by the US Secretary of Defense. Meanwhile, the Uzbekistan's Foreign Ministry summarily notified the US Embassy in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, that US forces would be evicted from the Karshi-Khanabad (K2) air base; the only US military facility in the country.

    The eviction notice gives the US 180 days to move aircraft, personnel and military equipment from the base in southern Uzbekistan. The notice came days after US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld returned from a visit to Uzbekistan's neighbors Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan. In Kyrgyzstan, observers claim that President Kurmanbek Bakiyev was forced to reconsider because of some attractive offer from overseas that he couldn't refuse.

    Before the Shanghai Cooperation Organization [SCO] meeting, the leaders of both the countries met at the Kremlin on July 1 2005 to discuss their mutual goals and short and long terms geo-political and geo-strategic interests in Central Asia and the agenda of upcoming G8 summit. They thoroughly discussed the Washington's role in Central Asia.

    After the meeting there was a strong commitment for having greater cooperation, desire to solve their long-standing border disputes from the legal perspective, and laid the foundation for greater integration of their state-controlled oil companies and banking systems.

    The "Joint Statement” of the People's Republic of China and the Russian Federation "Regarding the International Order of the 21st Century," signed by Chinese President Hu Jintao and Russian President Vladimir Putin on July 2, addresses U.S. hegemony in several less-than-oblique passages. China also has definite strategic interests in Central Asia. Beijing has financed a network of pipelines in Central Asia to Xinjiang province as an alternative source of oil supplies from the Middle East. US predominance in the region, or US-inspired political instability, could disrupt China’s plans, as well as potentially encourage ethnic unrest in Xinjiang, a Muslim dominated area.

    Since the establishment of their geo-strategic partnership, bilateral trade between Russia and China has risen dramatically and is expected to grow 20 percent from $21.2 billion in 2004. By 2010, the trade could reach $60-$80 billion. China is planning to increase its oil imports from Russia by 50 percent in 2005 to 70 million barrels. Chinese oil companies are investigating major investments in Russian energy companies.

    Over $6 billion in Chinese loans have already been provided to Rosneft, the main state-owned oil exporter to China. A central focus of China’s interest is Siberia. Nearly half of all the proven oil reserves of the former USSR are in the region, as are 70 percent of all Russia’s coal reserves. It is Russia’s largest producer of oil, the second largest for coal and a major centre of metal industries. Some 140 out of some 200 largest enterprises in Siberia are weapon manufacturers, whose main customer is China.

    Alongside the economic linkage, China and Russia are strengthening their military ties. The two countries are preparing their first joint military excise, to be conducted in China, involving 80,000 [10,000] troops. Russia intends to send warships, ground forces and long-range bombers. Although both sides have denied that the exercise is aimed at any country, there is little doubt that it is a response to the eruption of US aggression since 2001 and the growing uncertainties in world politics.

    The joint statement emphasized non-interference in internal affairs, mutual respect for other nations' sovereignty, and stresses the role of "multi-polarity" in dealing with conflicts. The text of joint statement again stressed, “the peoples of all countries should be free to decide their domestic affairs and emerging world affairs and conflicts should be decided through rigorous dialogue and consultation on a multilateral and collective basis. The use of military power to solve any regional and global conflict should be discouraged. Any country especially supper power should not divide countries into a leading camp and a subordinate camp (one of the characteristic of US foreign policy). It is further desired that the international community should establish an economic and trade regime that is comprehensive and widely accepted and that operates through the means of holding negotiations on an equal footing, discarding the practice of applying pressure and sanctions to coerce unilateral economic concessions, and bringing into play the roles of global and regional multilateral organizations and mechanisms.

    China National Offshore Oil Company Ltd [CNOOC] fired back its successful bid for the purchase of California-based Unocal, putting an end to its 40-day merger bid for the US Company, which triggered an unexpected political storm in the US.

    But “Protectionist” measures already taken by US, EU against the textile products of China and recently Japan against US steel products show the other side of the WTO and globalization of international markets and philosophy of free trade. Both the countries wish to present an alternative marketplace for developing countries to sell their goods. China has been able to successfully use the widely expected expansion of its domestic market to sell that alternative source of revenue to countries annoyed by the I.M.F. or World Bank, from South America to Africa. Now it hopes to further cement such a relationship with the states of Central Asia.

    In the joint statement, China and Russia sent a clear message to the other members of the SCO that US poses a potential threat to Central Asia's sovereignty and China and Russia can offer a similar economic and security package, only it will be designed to preserve the current status quo not to encourage market economies or democratic reforms.

    Most of the sates of Central Asia are now more than eager to coordinate with the regional power brokers - i.e. China and Russia - keeping in view the increasing poured money of US in their domestic elections to get desired results, undue influence in their national decision making regarding the distribution channels of oil and gas and the last but not the least occurrence of military bases.

    The six nations of the SCO China, Russia, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan met in Astana, Kazakhstan on July 5 2005 discussed the changing political situation in Central Asia and adopted anti-terrorism resolution to control terrorism, separatism and extremism. India, Pakistan and Iran participated in the meeting as observers.

    The environment of the SCO meeting was mostly influenced by the reaction to Uzbekistan's violent suppression of the May rebellion in Andijan. Western criticism of Uzbek President Islam Karimov's tactics brought to the surface the fears that the clan-based governments of Central Asia might fall in a wave of "color" revolutions, similar to that of Ukraine's "orange" revolution.

    After the joint statement of SCO Washington used every possible tactics to threaten the Central Asian countries. Kyrgyzstan and Ukraine’s governments promised to be loyal to US in the region. Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, and Tajikistan shifted their support to China and Russia in order to protect their sovereignty from U.S. meddling.

    Right from the beginning of human civilization, “Power” has had been playing vital role in the formation of a tribe, society or a country. The lust to gain more power has been the hallmark of modern political history too. A country needs to have power in order to counter the greater power “Dracula” and that merciless march/process goes on and on.

    Conflicting geo-political supply and demand and geo-strategic compulsions used to force countries to search for a “Safe Heaven” on earth. In the game of power politics principles have no meaning and matters of “Survival” dictate the songs of democracy, human rights, justice, global brotherhood, war on terror, hot pursuit of resources, and the last not the least international peace.

    It is also a bitter reality that power does justify all the ill intentions and wrong doings of a power-holder. In the rapidly changing regional and global geo-political and geo-strategic scenarios especially in the Central Asian Region the risen “Economic Dragon Power” China, and the “Old Lion” Russia has initiated some meaningful geo-political and geo-strategic steps to counter the increasing military and influence and greater socio-economic participation of US.

    Beijing, Moscow and Washington are once again using Central Asia, the setting for the "Great Game" between Tsarist Russia and Victorian England over 150 years ago, as their game board in a region rarely neglected by the world's great powers. In the contemporary version of the game, Washington approaches each state bilaterally, offering incentives to support the operations in Afghanistan while undermining the consensus put forth at the recent SCO meeting.
    [Source: By Mehmood-Ul-Hassan Khan, Pakistan, Media Monitors, US, 15Aug05]

    Afghanistan and Geostrategy

    An interesting take.

    Is it relevant in the current context?

    What is the current context?
  19. pashya001

    pashya001 Regular Member

    Jun 15, 2011
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    Do u think Russia plays double game with us?

    china and russia much closer than india
    russia delayes the delivery of lots of thing like ins creats lots of problems to creat statergy against our enemys
    lots of made in china tech is orignily russian technology which is russia provided secreatly
  20. debasree

    debasree Regular Member

    Feb 7, 2011
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    Calcutta, India, India
    i dont think so ,russia is still cannot totally believe china ,when they sell any weapon system to china the sell more striped off version while we get the latest technolodgy of them ,such as sukhoy,where our planes avionics are much better ,it has israely and french and russian avionics where their version is the import version of mkk series,they delay mainly,technical also for some friendly arm twisting such as to make more money out of the deal as the delay goes the opernational cost also going up,thus they hugely benefitted from it .we largely ignore it as we have no other cheap can tell about west but they are not as reliable as russians.except israelys.
  21. JBH22

    JBH22 Senior Member Senior Member

    Jul 29, 2010
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    What's the purpose of having these bureaucrat if they can't find appropriate ways to protect our interest as to Russia or any foreign country they do what suits their interest nothing more or less.
    Having said that I think delays on Russian contract are exaggerated by media in the western world you also have many projects have large cost overruns and delays

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