RFP issued for India navy amphibious vessels (LHD or LPD type)

[Immanuel]

If the Juan Carlos wins the deal, there is good chance the F-35B will be on it, 1 Juan Carlos can carry upto 10-11 F-35s + S-70 + + flight deck spots. This in addition to carrying over battlion worth of troops, armor and vehicles.

The Turks will have the F-35B on their versions.

Juan Carlos has the best chance of winning this tender. Mistral can't carry nearly as much even if the IN doesn't get STOVL on it. In pure helo mode, it can carry over 25 helos + 6 parking spots on deck. Also with the ship being made for Australia and Turkey, it is better to align with Navantia for TOT and licensing. The experience with DCNS has been shitty so far for the Scorpene.

Having the F-35B on the LPD allows IN to deloy them like mini carriers, very capable of taking part is small skirmishes across the IOR regions particularly defendig allies. Such a mini carrier group only needs 1 sub, 1 fleet tanker, 1 frigate and 1 destroyer for protection and power projection.

 

[kstriya]

If the Juan Carlos wins the deal, there is good chance the F-35B will be on it, 1 Juan Carlos can carry upto 10-11 F-35s + S-70 + + flight deck spots. This in addition to carrying over battlion worth of troops, armor and vehicles.

The Turks will have the F-35B on their versions.

Juan Carlos has the best chance of winning this tender. Mistral can't carry nearly as much even if the IN doesn't get STOVL on it. In pure helo mode, it can carry over 25 helos + 6 parking spots on deck. Also with the ship being made for Australia and Turkey, it is better to align with Navantia for TOT and licensing. The experience with DCNS has been shitty so far for the Scorpene.

Having the F-35B on the LPD allows IN to deloy them like mini carriers, very capable of taking part is small skirmishes across the IOR regions particularly defendig allies. Such a mini carrier group only needs 1 sub, 1 fleet tanker, 1 frigate and 1 destroyer for protection and power projection.

Should be sufficient to take care of the so called string of pearls

 

[kstriya]

If the Juan Carlos wins the deal, there is good chance the F-35B will be on it, 1 Juan Carlos can carry upto 10-11 F-35s + S-70 + + flight deck spots. This in addition to carrying over battlion worth of troops, armor and vehicles.

The Turks will have the F-35B on their versions.

Juan Carlos has the best chance of winning this tender. Mistral can't carry nearly as much even if the IN doesn't get STOVL on it. In pure helo mode, it can carry over 25 helos + 6 parking spots on deck. Also with the ship being made for Australia and Turkey, it is better to align with Navantia for TOT and licensing. The experience with DCNS has been shitty so far for the Scorpene.

Having the F-35B on the LPD allows IN to deloy them like mini carriers, very capable of taking part is small skirmishes across the IOR regions particularly defendig allies. Such a mini carrier group only needs 1 sub, 1 fleet tanker, 1 frigate and 1 destroyer for protection and power projection.

I would rather look at NLCA as F35's would be over kill and have a killer price to make a hole in Indian naval budget. Rather have a home grown solution to take care of the fighter arm of LPD.

 

[Gessler]

Lol....the group of idiots trying to give the Navy a STOVL carrier instead of the amphibious warfare ship it asked for are back!

Happy dreaming.

Gosh....I can't believe how some people try to suggest how & what the Navy should do without even knowing what the requirement is about! We already have 1 carrier in service, 1 in advanced stages of construction and planning to build atleast 1 more bigger one. Now people want to turn all the LHDs into carriers as well!

Might as well have F-35B take off from destroyers & frigates as well! Afterall it can do VTOL (not at full operational load, but still).

 

[MKM]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STOBAR#List_of_STOBAR_aircraft

Sorry, I didn't ask NLCA is STOBAR or not, but reminded you.
To land NLCA on LHD, it need to converted into full aircraft carrier.
You joined DFI in 2011, I joined in 2016, is it ok for you to call me sir?
Please don't call me sir, obviously bo you are not a teenager.

Sir, Navy ships do keep couple of helicopters with it.

Now can I call them LHD, just bcz they also has helicopters.....!

The answer is --> no. I can't.

The similar way if a LHD keeps few aircrafts (say very limited number) with it then it doesn't become aircraft carrier.

Now from where you bring carriers and CBG in it....?

Fix wing aircrafts also has its own pros and cons, but it helps in mission too and that is fact.

Why people consider HTMS Chakri Naruebet while it doesn't operate aircrafts.
I think, when it operates fixed wing aircraft, it becomes full aircraft carrier, also it will increase cost significantly which is already less than present Canberra class LHD.

If the Juan Carlos wins the deal, there is good chance the F-35B will be on it, 1 Juan Carlos can carry upto 10-11 F-35s + S-70 + + flight deck spots. This in addition to carrying over battlion worth of troops, armor and vehicles.

The Turks will have the F-35B on their versions.

Juan Carlos has the best chance of winning this tender. Mistral can't carry nearly as much even if the IN doesn't get STOVL on it. In pure helo mode, it can carry over 25 helos + 6 parking spots on deck. Also with the ship being made for Australia and Turkey, it is better to align with Navantia for TOT and licensing. The experience with DCNS has been shitty so far for the Scorpene.

Having the F-35B on the LPD allows IN to deloy them like mini carriers, very capable of taking part is small skirmishes across the IOR regions particularly defendig allies. Such a mini carrier group only needs 1 sub, 1 fleet tanker, 1 frigate and 1 destroyer for protection and power projection.

If IN wanted a aircraft carrier it would go with new Vikrant class instead of an LHD, LHD will be just for Helicopters.
I think IN might have a chance of getting F35 if it wouldn't have strings attached with it, that is biggest problem for IN rather than cost in 2027-30.

Remember, IN wants LHDs for amphibious operations too which aircraft carrier can't do.

 

[Immanuel]

The Juan Carlos is a LPD, it is capable of many things including carrying STOVL aircraft like the Harrier or the F-35B. Now the IN wants 4 LPDs, with an ability to conduct amphibious assault ops and any serious assault in this day should be backed up by fighters, while helos allow for good flexibility. Fighters primarily allow for ship protection and softening of shore defenses. Can helos alone do the job? Sure but having a STOVL aircraft on board allows for more possibilities.

Regardless of what 1 belligerent cock gobbler thinks, I only suggested that having a fixed air wing i.e. STOVL aircraft on the LPD allows IN to have 4 additional mini carrier groups for skirmishes around the string of pearls, IOR. These can be based at various key naval stations and quickly mobilized and would be pack a significant punch that a LPD with only helos can't match. Had the Rafale been available in STOVL version the same said cock muncher would be all up on this idea.

The tender is far from over and whenever the order is placed, count another 5-7 years for the 1st ship to be ready, enough time for a possible F-35B purchase on the LPD.

 

[SajeevJino]

@Immanuel yes the idea is good, carrying four to eight VTOL's in the LHD is best option for amphibious operation. However Shores of the Pakistan is heavily defended, so IN mostly use the destroyers to hit those targets, while Helicopters alone provide close air support for long time, covered by Other fixed wing from IAC 1,2 and Vikky

 

[Immanuel]

@Immanuel yes the idea is good, carrying four to eight VTOL's in the LHD is best option for amphibious operation. However Shores of the Pakistan is heavily defended, so IN mostly use the destroyers to hit those targets, while Helicopters alone provide close air support for long time, covered by Other fixed wing from IAC 1,2 and Vikky

Around 10-12 STOVL aircraft on the Juan Carlos can be quite easily accomodated. For 4 LPDs that about 40-48 F-35Bs. If the LPDs can have their own fixed wing protection, then there won't be the need for Vikky or IACs to be around when engaged in mid sized skirmishes certainly in Pak, they can be busy with ops else where. Destroyers in the end can only do so much. The F-35Bs will be quite handy in taking out moving targets, air defenses and other hardened defenses. Moreso, they can hover around and pick out coastal antiship defenses too.

Juan Carlos in pure aircraft mode can carry upto 20 F-35B + 6 parking spots for helos, hybrid mode (10 F-35B + 12 S-70/NH-90 + 6 parking spots) and pure helo mode upto 25 helos and 6 parking spots.

I believe having around 40 F-35B allows the flexbility to quickly mobilize them on the LPDs as and when needed for different ops, some missions such humanitarian relief, evac of citizens in troubled regions don't need STOVL aircraft on board during which the LPD can deploy as a pure transport with a deck load of helos but other missions such as a beach landing on Spratly islands would require STOVL bird support.

 

[kstriya]

F35's are too costly and Harrier's are bygone era birds. LPD's will have a huge rcs and the enemy air defences will be alerted in advance so F35 would be a very costly weapon for SEAD operations and for surface targets F35 would be an advantage but it comes with a enormous price, 48 would cost more than all the LPD's on order. Either we should have a substitute or drop the plan of a air wing.

 

[kstriya]

YAK -141 is a VTOL aircraft the Russians have, 48 is a big number for fighter jets. We can develop a LCA variant for Navy with VTOL capabilities, I don't know how much this is possible with the limited space in the LCA airframe. But not a bad idea for future developments. The Chinese are working with the Russian for a J20 VTOL variant. Even we can press for a PAK FA VTOL variant to be jointly developed by India and Russia if stealth is the primary requirement.

 

[Immanuel]

F35's are too costly and Harrier's are bygone era birds. LPD's will have a huge rcs and the enemy air defences will be alerted in advance so F35 would be a very costly weapon for SEAD operations and for surface targets F35 would be an advantage but it comes with a enormous price, 48 would cost more than all the LPD's on order. Either we should have a substitute or drop the plan of a air wing.

The 40 F-35B if ordered for the LPD around 2022 would cost around 7-8 billion including weapons, service and spares. LPDs are more likely to be detected if operating only helos and will have to get closer. With the F-35B they can keep their distance from the shore. The F-35B has a combat radius of around 800 km on internal fuel alone and thus the LPD can be away from detection ranges.

I agree budgets, Indo-US relations and many other things need to align before that happens but there is enough time.

 

[MKM]

YAK -141 is a VTOL aircraft the Russians have, 48 is a big number for fighter jets. We can develop a LCA variant for Navy with VTOL capabilities, I don't know how much this is possible with the limited space in the LCA airframe. But not a bad idea for future developments. The Chinese are working with the Russian for a J20 VTOL variant. Even we can press for a PAK FA VTOL variant to be jointly developed by India and Russia if stealth is the primary requirement.

Are you sure about FAK FA forget about VTOL PAK FA?

 

[kstriya]

Sea Harriers have stopped to exist with no replacement. Is there a way we can develop a Tejas Naval variant with Short take-off and vertical landing abilities. The vertical landing ability has its own advantage and we can operate them from LPD or LHD which India is planning to induct. Apart from F35 there is no navalised vertical landing aircraft in the market. A cost effective and considerably cheap bird like Tejas could be a game changer with 4.5 gen tech.

 

[kstriya]

Wikipedia
INS Viraat is fitted with a 14° ski jump to operate the Sea Harrier, a reinforced flight deck, and 1.2 inches (3 cm) of armour over the magazines and machinery spaces. The magazine capacity includes at least 80 lightweight torpedoes. The vessel retains commando transport capability for up to 750 troops and carries four LCVP landing craft in the aft section.[8] In a wartime scenario, the ship can embark up to 26 combat aircraft and the ship is suited for supporting amphibious operations and conducting ASW operations.

 

[kstriya]

INS Viraat was a multi purpose vessel it was designed and built for amphibious operations. Now after it being retired we will have a void in such capabilities. Instead of building a single role vessel, we need to focus on multi roles. Vikrant class should be enhanced to do amphibious roles with NLCA as primary fighter.

 

[Thrishul]

The Juan Carlos Class is a amphibious assault ship that also acts as a platform for carrier based fixed wing aviation in the Spanish Navy. The ship weighs 26,000 ton in Spanish service and 27,500 tons in Australian service as the Canberra Class. All 3 ships have a sky-jump ramp, Spain uses it to operate Harriers and intends to use the F-35 B on it. Australia has retained the ramp, even though they do not intend to operate the F-35B off it. They kept it because removing it would increase the cost of the vessels.
The Juan Carlos Class for all intends and purposes vessel that can operate fixed wing aircraft, similar to what the Indian Navy has been operating since 1986 with the induction of INS Viraat.
One interesting thing about the erstwhile INS Vikrant (19,500 tons) and the current INS Viraat (28,700 tons) is that they were laid down during world war two. Both of them did not have angled flight decks or deck edge elevators or catapults. When India bought the INS Vikrant she under went major modifications that added catapults, angled flight decks but not a deck edge elevator. INS Viraat the erstwhile HMS Hermes was also commissioned into the Royal Navy after major modification like INS Vikrant but added a deck edge elevator.
India currently is the only nation that has a light aircraft that is capable of aircraft carrier operations in the Naval LCA, the Naval LCA program is also spear heading the Mark-2 program which improves thrust, range and payload.
The Juan Carlos class is a vessel that has deck space for helicopters, fixed wing aircraft, landing craft, close to a thousand troops, tanks and trucks. The ship does not have enough space to carry all of the above at the same time but based upon the requirements of the mission it can have multiple load outs.
For the Indian Navy's LHD/LPD requirements the Juan Carlos would fit the bill perfectly, but if changes to the design were made before the ships are laid down, they could operate the Naval LCA.
There would be three main changes needed, an angled flight deck, a recovery-arrest-trap system and a deck edge elevator (removing the current aft elevator from the potential landing point of the Naval LCA). This would make the Juan Carlos Class into a STOBAR capable vessel.
This would make the Juan Carlos in the Indian Navy's service a Landing Aircraft Dock or LAD. The LAD would be a truly multi function ship. In the amphibious assault mode it could take on landing craft, tanks helicopters and a 1000 troops. In a sea control mode it can take on a squadron of LCA Navy. In a ASW mode it can take on a squadron of ASW helecopters (like the Royal Navy carriers during the cold war, they also had Harriers for fixed wing aviation even though they were ASW carriers). The ship could also have a mixed load out of 4 Naval LCA, 6 assault helicopters, 2 ASW helicopters, a platoon of tanks and 500 troops.
The LAD strike group will not have to depend on one of our 3 carriers for fixed wing combat air patrols. Its LCA-N will provide it. This would make the Indian Navy of the 2030's a 7 carrier force with 6 STOBAR capable vessels.

Note: By going this way the Indian Navy would have to order at least 2 more squadrons of Naval LCA's on top of the 46 on order. This would cement the Mark-2 from being cancelled in case the IAF plays truant and opts for the Gripen E (which is a comparable fighter to the Mark-2). In short it will protect 30 years of work on our aviation industry.

 

[Thrishul]

Proposed design changes

 

[Thrishul]

The Juan Carlos Class is a amphibious assault ship that also acts as a platform for carrier based fixed wing aviation in the Spanish Navy. The ship weighs 26,000 ton in Spanish service and 27,500 tons in Australian service as the Canberra Class. All 3 ships have a sky-jump ramp, Spain uses it to operate Harriers and intends to use the F-35 B on it. Australia has retained the ramp, even though they do not intend to operate the F-35B off it. They kept it because removing it would increase the cost of the vessels.
The Juan Carlos Class for all intends and purposes vessel that can operate fixed wing aircraft, similar to what the Indian Navy has been operating since 1986 with the induction of INS Viraat.
One interesting thing about the erstwhile INS Vikrant (19,500 tons) and the current INS Viraat (28,700 tons) is that they were laid down during world war two. Both of them did not have angled flight decks or deck edge elevators or catapults. When India bought the INS Vikrant she under went major modifications that added catapults, angled flight decks but not a deck edge elevator. INS Viraat the erstwhile HMS Hermes was also commissioned into the Royal Navy after major modification like INS Vikrant but added a deck edge elevator.
India currently is the only nation that has a light aircraft that is capable of aircraft carrier operations in the Naval LCA, the Naval LCA program is also spear heading the Mark-2 program which improves thrust, range and payload.
The Juan Carlos class is a vessel that has deck space for helicopters, fixed wing aircraft, landing craft, close to a thousand troops, tanks and trucks. The ship does not have enough space to carry all of the above at the same time but based upon the requirements of the mission it can have multiple load outs.
For the Indian Navy's LHD/LPD requirements the Juan Carlos would fit the bill perfectly, but if changes to the design were made before the ships are laid down, they could operate the Naval LCA.
There would be three main changes needed, an angled flight deck, a recovery-arrest-trap system and a deck edge elevator (removing the current aft elevator from the potential landing point of the Naval LCA). This would make the Juan Carlos Class into a STOBAR capable vessel.
This would make the Juan Carlos in the Indian Navy's service a Landing Aircraft Dock or LAD. The LAD would be a truly multi function ship. In the amphibious assault mode it could take on landing craft, tanks helicopters and a 1000 troops. In a sea control mode it can take on a squadron of LCA Navy. In a ASW mode it can take on a squadron of ASW helecopters (like the Royal Navy carriers during the cold war, they also had Harriers for fixed wing aviation even though they were ASW carriers). The ship could also have a mixed load out of 4 Naval LCA, 6 assault helicopters, 2 ASW helicopters, a platoon of tanks and 500 troops.
The LAD strike group will not have to depend on one of our 3 carriers for fixed wing combat air patrols. Its LCA-N will provide it. This would make the Indian Navy of the 2030's a 7 carrier force with 6 STOBAR capable vessels.

Note: By going this way the Indian Navy would have to order at least 2 more squadrons of Naval LCA's on top of the 46 on order. This would cement the Mark-2 from being cancelled in case the IAF plays truant and opts for the Gripen E (which is a comparable fighter to the Mark-2). In short it will protect 30 years of work on our aviation industry.

Another thing to note is that the Juan Carlos at 230 meters in length and 27,000 tons is the smallest flat deck that can operate the Tejas Mark-2 Navy. There is some speculation that the LHD's might be of 35,000 to 40,000 ton displacement, based on this the Vessels would easily fly the LCA-N Mk2 with space to spare. But the displacement might be for the fleet replenishment vessels.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Manufacturing of Special Operations Vessels

 

[kstriya]

We need to have a Juan Carlos class LHD for the navy, which can act as a aircraft carrier like the outgoing Viraat which will add more CBG's in the Indian Navy. With the news of IAC being delayed and Viktamaditya under refit we will be out of a carrier protecting our sea lanes. We must plan for contingency's and have a multi purpose vessel like Juan Carlos class.