Reverse Engineering Is Extremely Difficult

Martian

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"How NOT to Build an Aircraft Carrier"

Everyone must be wondering, why is a little French guy from a tiny country trolling in the China forum? Here is my explanation. Armand2REP knows the reason that the New York Times published the accusation that French spies are trying to steal American military secrets and technology. Armand2REP has a giant inferiority complex because he's frustrated that French technology is pretty horrendous.

We are examining the pinnacle of French technology, the most modern French aircraft carrier "Charles de Gaulle."

To wit:

1) It took the French 11 years (e.g. over a decade) to build a 40,000 ton ship. In comparison, it only took the United States 7 years to build a ship 2 1/2 times bigger, the 100,000 ton Nimitz-class supercarrier USS George H.W. Bush. To summarize, it takes the French four years longer to build a much smaller ship (e.g. 40,000 tons vs. 100,000 tons). Armand2REP, this is amazing French technology.

2) French nuclear-powered carrier is "slower than the diesel powered carrier it replaced." Incredible French technology! Use nuclear power to build a slower ship.

3) "Flaws in the "de Gaulle" have led it to using the propellers from it predecessor, the "Foch," because the ones built for "de Gaulle" never worked right and the propeller manufacturer went out of business in 1999." Isn't that impressive French ingenuity? France can't build new propellers; why not take the old propellers and put it on the new ship?! What will French engineers think of next?

4) "Worse, the nuclear reactor installation was done poorly, exposing the engine crew to five times the allowable annual dose of radiation." If you want to be a guinea pig in a French science experiment, why not join the French Navy? You, too, can experience the privilege of being irradiated by "five times the allowable annual dose of radiation." Look, ma, French technology makes me glow in the dark from absorbing dangerous levels of radiation!

5) "There were also problems with the design of the deck, making it impossible to operate the E-2 radar aircraft that are essential to defending the ship and controlling offensive operations." That's right, French carriers don't need "E-2 radar aircraft...to defend the ship and control offensive operations." This is French engineering, where the deck is designed to "make it impossible to operate E-2 radar aircraft."

6) "The cause of the problems can be traced to the decision to install nuclear reactors designed for French submarines, instead of spending more money and designing reactors specifically for the carrier." What will the French think of next?! Why didn't anyone else think of installing "nuclear reactors designed for French submarines" and putting them on aircraft carriers instead?! Those French engineers can't be beat!

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/cdg.htm

"Nonetheless, the Charles de Gaulle has suffered from a variety of problems [see James Dunnigan's "How NOT to Build an Aircraft Carrier"]. The Charles de Gaulle took eleven years to build, with construction beginning in 1988 and entering service in late 2000. For comparison, construction of the American CVN 77 began in 2001 with a projected delivery in 2008. The 40,000 ton ship is slower than the conventionally powered Foch, which she it replaced. The propellers on the CDG did not work properly, so she recycled those of the Foch. The nuclear reactor was problematic, with the engine crew receiving five times the allowable annual radiation dose. The flight deck layout has precluded operating the E-2 radar aircraft."
 
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Armand2REP

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1) It took the French 11 years (e.g. over a decade) to build a 40,000 ton ship. In comparison, it only took the United States 7 years to build a ship 2 1/2 times bigger, the 100,000 ton Nimitz-class supercarrier USS George H.W. Bush. To summarize, it takes the French four years longer to build a much smaller ship (e.g. 40,000 tons vs. 100,000 tons). Armand2REP, this is amazing French technology.
USS Nimitz was built during the Cold War, CdG was built on a post-war budget and the first nuclear French carrier. Nimitz was not the first US nuclear carrier.

2) French nuclear-powered carrier is "slower than the diesel powered carrier it replaced." Incredible French technology! Use nuclear power to build a slower ship.
And the Nimitz is slower than the nuclear carrier it replaced. So much for incredible US technology?

3) "Flaws in the "de Gaulle" have led it to using the propellers from it predecessor, the "Foch," because the ones built for "de Gaulle" never worked right and the propeller manufacturer went out of business in 1999." Isn't that impressive French ingenuity? France can't build new propellers; why not take the old propellers and put it on the new ship?! What will French engineers think of next?
10 year old news, it has its own propellers now.

4) "Worse, the nuclear reactor installation was done poorly, exposing the engine crew to five times the allowable annual dose of radiation." If you want to be a guinea pig in a French science experiment, why not join the French Navy? You, too, can experience the privilege of being irradiated by "five times the allowable annual dose of radiation." Look, ma, French technology makes me glow in the dark from absorbing dangerous levels of radiation!
CdG radiation levels are well within tolerance, unlike Chinese submarines.

5) "There were also problems with the design of the deck, making it impossible to operate the E-2 radar aircraft that are essential to defending the ship and controlling offensive operations." That's right, French carriers don't need "E-2 radar aircraft...to defend the ship and control offensive operations." This is French engineering, where the deck is designed to "make it impossible to operate E-2 radar aircraft."


Looks like an E-2C to me...


6) "The cause of the problems can be traced to the decision to install nuclear reactors designed for French submarines, instead of spending more money and designing reactors specifically for the carrier."
What will the French think of next?! Why didn't anyone else think of installing "nuclear reactors designed for French submarines" and putting them on aircraft carriers instead?! Those French engineers can't be beat!


Nothing wrong with the reactors, cost efficient to use an already proven design.

CdG has cruised the world six times over again... hardly a waste of money. Now looking at the model the Chinese are basing their future carrier on, we can look at the Kuznetsov which in the same time frame, hasn't even cruised the world once, can't exceed 16knts and will undergo a 5 year refit to fix its problems. While CdG is in the Indian Ocean bombing the Taliban, the same carrier China wants is spilling oil in the North Sea and having electrical fires. CdG is the only nuclear carrier outside the US and it works.

You only wish you had one.
 
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Martian

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Rafale comes in last place at Brazilian fighter jet competition

Hey Armand2REP, if French technology is as good as you claim then why did it come in last at the Brazilian jet competition?

Let's take an objective look at France's premier fighter, the Rafale.

Brazil Air Force prefers Swedish jets-report | Reuters

"Tue Jan 5, 2010 8:59am EST

Brazil Air Force prefers Swedish jets-report

BRASILIA, Jan 5 (Reuters) - The Brazilian Air Force would prefer to buy its next-generation fighter jets from Sweden, putting it at odds with President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva's preference for French planes, media reported on Tuesday.

The deal, which could initially be worth more than $4 billion, has sparked fierce competition among aircraft manufacturers.

An Air Force report presented to Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said Sweden's Saab (SAABb.ST) had presented the best overall project among the three finalists, Folha de Sao Paulo newspaper reported on Tuesday.

The U.S.-made Boeing (BA.N) F18 was runner-up in the report, and France's Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA) placed last with its Rafale jet.

The Brazilian government said last year that it was in the final stages of talks to acquire the Rafale.

Accused by critics of cutting short the bidding process, the government insisted no final decision had been made. Lula said he would have the final word and that his decision would be political and strategic.

Brazil has signed a strategic defense agreement with France worth billions of dollars, including the local assembly of helicopters and conventional and nuclear-powered submarines.

Brazil is seeking a generous technology transfer offer and local assembly as part of a contract to buy 36 jet fighters. The deal could eventually rise to more than 100 aircraft.

Saab's Gripen NG jet had a lower purchase and maintenance cost and would allow for more technology to be transferred to Brazil, Folha cited the Air Force report as saying.

Unlike the Rafale, which is a finished product, the Gripen NG would be developed with Brazilian participation, the Air Force said according to Folha.

The Veja news magazine reported this week that Jobim told friends there might not be a decision on the deal before he steps down in April to run for public office in October general elections.

For more than a decade, Brazil has been studying how to replace its aging fleet of fighter jets.

The Air Force declined to comment, and the defense ministry was not immediately available to comment. (Reporting by Raymond Colitt; Editing by Lisa Von Ahn)"
 

Armand2REP

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Hey Armand2REP, if French technology is as good as you claim then why did it come in last at the Brazilian jet competition?
It didn't...


France confident Brazil will order Rafale planes

Tue May 18, 2010 10:11am EDT

MADRID, May 18 (Reuters) - France is confident Brazil will soon confirm an order for 36 Rafale fighter planes, a diplomatic source said after President Nicolas Sarkozy met Luiz Inacio Lul da Silva of Brazil.

The two men met at the sidelines of a European Union/Latin America summit in Madrid.

"From this discussion we retain that the decision taken by Brazil for the preference (of Rafale) in September will be confirmed soon," the source said.

Brazil is set to decide before the end of July.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSWEA281120100518?type=marketsNews
 

Martian

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French "aggressively" try to steal American military secrets and technology

Armand, if France is doing well with its own technology then why are French spies/thieves trying to steal American technology and secrets?

The following article was published in yesterday's New York Times that accuse the French of being technology thieves.

Dispute Over France a Factor in Intelligence Rift - NYTimes.com

"Dispute Over France a Factor in Intelligence Rift
By MARK MAZZETTI
Published: May 21, 2010
...
Unlike America's relationship with Britain and other close allies like Australia, the United States and France have a long history of spying on each other. For example, intelligence experts said the French had been particularly aggressive in trying to steal secrets about the American defense and technology industries. For its part, the United States has long been suspicious of French government and business ties to countries like Iran and Syria, and about North African militant groups whose operatives work inside France."
 

badguy2000

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fairly speaking, French tech is ok,but its cost-performance is too poor.that is why French arms are not very popular.

Morever, the R&D of new G arms such as 5G bird is so expensive that France can not afford to develope alone.
in a word, "weapons made in France" has not a brgiht future.

France will have to give up some parts of its defence industry chains,because france can not afford it simplely.
 

Armand2REP

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Armand, if France is doing well with its own technology then why are French spies/thieves trying to steal American technology and secrets?
Everyone tries to steal America's secrets, the difference between France and China... we don't get caught. You get busted all the time.
 

Martian

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"Most of France's tanks, helicopters and jet fighters are unusable"

How come the French military is falling apart?

MOD EDIT: How is this related to reverse engineering?. Stay on topic.
 
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badguy2000

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it can not prove French defence tech banrupt. it just prove that French finiance bankrupt.
 
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Armand2REP

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it can not prove French defence tech banrupt. it just prove that French finiance bankrupt.
It proves Cold War equipment isn't worth maintaining. F1s and 1/2 batch Leclercs are being refurbished and sold off to Latin America. 256 batch 3/4 Leclercs are finishing modernisation. Pumas and Lynx are replaced with NH-90, Super Frelons were already withdrawn. F1 squadrons are getting Rafale. Just sensationalism over retired and soon to be retired hardware.
 

Martian

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Where is the French Aegis-class destroyer?

If the French military is as advanced as you claim, can you show me a picture of an advanced French Aegis-class destroyer with distinctive phased-array panels?


China's Type 052C Aegis-class destroyer #171 Haikou


U.S. Arleigh Burke Aegis-class destroyer
 

Daredevil

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Martian stop flaming in this thread. Just stick to the topic of reverse engineering. No need to bring French military defeats into this.
 

Martian

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Martian stop flaming in this thread. Just stick to the topic of reverse engineering. No need to bring French military defeats into this.
It's up to you. Armand is willing to continue this dialogue. If you insist on shutting it down, feel free to lock the thread. You guys do it all the time.
 

Daredevil

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It's up to you. Armand is willing to continue this dialogue. If you insist on shutting it down, feel free to lock the thread. You guys do it all the time.
We might lock the thread if you bring down the quality of the thread with off-topics posts, flaming etc. If you really want to debate an issue do it without flaming and going on a tangent. Here the topic is reverse engineering and discuss only related things to this. Any off-topic and flaming posts will be deleted.
 

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