Reports China building 2nd aircraft carrier deleted from websites

s002wjh

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Apple and Smsung use their own material and supervision and closed door policy at their manufacturing sites, hence always get their products right. Labour is same everywhere. What matters is the quality of parts and sourcing of the parts. Much of the parts in Apple have Taiwan origin.

It is the Chinese stuff, which either is built by them with locally sourced parts or even designed by them. In order to keep the prices low and attractive, lower quality parts and manufacturing processes are used.
apple and samsung sub-contract all its supply chain etc to chinese manufacture and company, same with Airbus plane in tanjian. No these labor consider mid-high tech which require certain tech skills. for example vietnam/india labor is cheap now compare to china, why hasn't apply move its production to other cheaper country. there is a reason why china is able to make xiaomi, its own jet etc etc, all those manufacture tech-know how are imported to china.

taiwan origin lol, all taiwan origin are from china, there is very little to no manufacture in taiwan. go do some research on these topic.

its not the chinese stuff, xiaomi, lenovo, and many other small electronic are made in china, the keyboard i'm using right now for years are made in china. You PAY want you Get, dont expect a quality product if you only pay sub-pricing.
 

sorcerer

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The Truth About China's Aircraft Carriers

According to public reports, China is building two aircraft carriers, with plans to increase that to four, according to one report, and possibly a new class of helicopter carrier for amphibious assault. For many in China, this has been a necessary evolution for a country of such wealth and international power. For the government, it is part of a techno-nationalist campaign designed to show that the country is arriving at the highest level of international power. The idea is that China can do anything the other great powers do. It can land jet aircraft on a carrier, it can put a rover on the moon, and it can put a man in space. This is the decade of impressive and inspiring achievement we have seen from China.

Yet the challenge China faces is that it is copying innovations first undertaken more than a few decades earlier (China was four decades late for manned space travel and six decades late for a jet aircraft landing on an aircraft carrier). When China puts a person on the moon later this decade it will be five decades after the United States did so. In those four to six decades, the innovation of the United States and other countries did not stand still. So we should not automatically assume that mere replication of such technological milestones is a good idea for China.

There has been some debate in the pages of The Diplomat about the expansive ambitions of China in the naval domain and about the contemporary value of aircraft carriers in naval forces in general. The view I identify most with is that from Harry Kazianis, "Why to Ignore China's Aircraft Carriers" (January 28, 2914). He said: "There is a lot of Chinese hardware that could challenge U.S. primacy in the Pacific — but carriers are not one of them." But I don't even agree that Chinese hardware can challenge U.S. primacy. It takes a lot more than technology. It is about intent and allies, among many factors to consider. I don't believe that Chinese leaders have it in their heads or in their budgets to challenge U.S. naval primacy in the Pacific.

I also take issue with the speculation about China building naval bases in the Indian Ocean. It is possible at some point that they might do so, but it is not likely to be in the leaders' plans for the foreseeable future. Why do they need foreign naval bases?

Let's look first at the two new carriers. The best single statement on the continuing relevance or otherwise of carriers comes from Robert Ruble, writing in the Naval War College Review, when he observed that "the real arguments for and against them reside in their doctrinal roles."

What is China's doctrine on the role of aircraft carriers? In one of the most authoritative sources, the latest biannual defense White Paper (2103), we get the following indications. (1) "China's development of an aircraft carrier has a profound impact on building a strong PLAN and safeguarding maritime security." (2) "It is an essential national development strategy to "¦ build China into a maritime power." (3) "Overseas interests have become an integral component of China's national interests. Security issues are increasingly prominent, involving overseas energy and resources, strategic sea lines of communication (SLOCs), and Chinese nationals and legal persons overseas."

Careful analysis of China's doctrinal position on protecting SLOCs is that this is a multinational responsibility, not something that China can deliver by itself. A carrier would be useful in some cases to rescue Chinese nationals overseas, but these cases would be very rare. So if we are reading the White Paper to look for justification of carriers, we are left largely with the national prestige argument: "building a strong PLA Navy." The word "sovereignty", the proxy for a Taiwan-related mission, is not visible in the brief statement on carriers.

I can support strongly the view of Ronald O'Rourke, a leading analyst of the Chinese navy working in the Congressional Research service, who concluded in December 2014, "Although aircraft carriers might have some value for China in Taiwan-related conflict scenarios, they are not considered critical" for such scenarios "because Taiwan is within range of land-based Chinese aircraft." O'Rourke said that "most observers believe that China is acquiring carriers primarily for their value in other kinds of operations, and to symbolize China's status as a leading regional power and major world power."

In fact, China is still evaluating the appropriate combat role for carriers, if we can believe the statement of the commander of the PLA Navy, Admiral Wu Shengli, on September 12, 2013. He foreshadowed several years of such testing and evaluation, even though two additional carriers are reported by a Russian source to be in the early stages of construction, and other sources report a plan to eventually build four large new carriers of a class of ship yet to be fully designed.

O'Rourke suggested that the carriers could be used for power projection. If by that he means political intervention in distant crises for national strategic advantage, which is the main reason why the United States has carriers and why the USSR wanted them, there is a problem with that conclusion. China has no military doctrine for such power projection behind China's national interests. The projected size of its navy in the next two decades would barely allow it. Moreover, China has a political doctrine that it will not undertake such interventions. Johan Lagerkvist is correct to point out that China is developing a higher tolerance for participation in U.N. approved humanitarian interventions and sacrificing its absolute insistence on sovereignty in such cases. But this is not the same as political interventions or power projection of the sort undertaken by the United States since aircraft carriers came into service.

China's military budgets for development of capabilities beyond those needed for homeland defense and near-ocean operations will be a much lower priority for President Xi Jinping than for past leaders. In an environment of shrinking growth rates in the national economy, Xi will want to see much more spending on China's military space program because of the impact that has on cyber warfare. He has already flagged cuts in conventional systems and manpower to allow for expansion of cyber capability. In the face of increasing terrorist attacks inside China, he will be favoring internal security above all else. Xi and the Politburo will support carrier development for the meantime, but as budget priorities change and new technologies emerge, especially in space and robotics, it is more than likely that China may limit its carrier force to just two new vessels (for fixed wing aircraft) rather than four or more.

In 2014, civil military relations in China (at least between the Party and military leaderships) took their worst turn since 1971, with the preparation of criminal charges against a former vice chairman of the Central Military Commission and with Xi categorically outlawing all non-salary income for all PLA personnel. Military budgeting under Xi Jinping has entered a new reality, and any Chinese navy dreams of great power projection through carrier task force deployments may well fade in that environment.

Xi will want a Chinese navy that is visibly bigger than Japan's (now achieved) but he will be content with (and forced to accept) a navy that will remain less than half the size and capability of the U.S. Navy.

The Truth About China’s Aircraft Carriers | The Diplomat
 

sorcerer

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Can China Modernise "Kiev" And "Minsk" Into Full-Fledged Aircraft Carriers?

There have been intense discussions recently on the Chinese Internet about the possibility of converting former Soviet aircraft-carriers "Kiev" and "Minsk" into modern aircraft carriers.

These discussions have also attracted the attention of observers outside China. We asked Vasily Kashin, an expert at the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, to assess whether such alterations are feasible, and whether China can increase its carrier fleet due to reconstruction of "Kiev" and "Minsk":

"The answer to the first question is precise and definite — yes. Both "Kiev" and "Minsk" can be converted into "full-fledged aircraft carriers" suitable for aircraft with conventional "horizontal" takeoff and landing. The answer to the second question, as to whether it is appropriate to do so, also looks quite clear. Such a project would be very ineffective, and it is highly unlikely that China will ever try to implement it. The implementation of this project will require expenditure comparable to the cost of building new aircraft carriers, besides entailing major technical risks leading to very mediocre outcome."


Unlike the unfinished former Soviet aircraft carrier "Varyag" which was completed by the Chinese, "Kiev" and "Minsk" could carry only vertical take-off aircraft Yak-38 and helicopters. They are also much older than "Varyag": "Kiev", the oldest Soviet aircraft carrier, was inducted into the Soviet Navy in 1975, almost 40 years ago. "Minsk" became part of the Soviet Navy in 1978. By the time of the collapse of the Soviet Union, both ships were thoroughly worn out.


Thus, the scope of work on redesigning and restructuring of these ships is absolutely incomparable with the work that was performed on the "Varyag" – later renamed as "Liaoning". "Varyag" was sent to China in almost 70% readiness, and its completion mainly involved alteration of the cabins and berths, introducing some improvements and the installation of weapons, special equipment for the deployment of aircraft and avionics equipment.

Of the four Soviet aircraft carriers, only one — "Admiral Gorshkov", known as "Vikramaditya" in the Indian Navy, underwent alterations to become a "classic" aircraft carrier for MiG-29K aircraft. It was the youngest and most advanced ship of the project. It joined the Soviet Navy only in 1987, and its operation was terminated in 1992, so it was not really worn out.

It is important to note that the task of restructuring the cruiser into an aircraft carrier was extremely difficult. In fact, the ship had to be redesigned completely.

Thus the fundamental possibility of restructuring Soviet aircraft carrier cruisers into full-fledged aircraft carriers was demonstrated. But it was also shown that this task was extremely complicated.

For China, the implementation of this project will be more difficult than for Russia, because China does not have the necessary knowledge about the design of both ships, nor the specialists who participated in their design and construction. We should also take into account the fact that the hull and machinery of "Kiev" and "Minsk" have taken a heavy wear and tear. Their restructuring would be a very costly project and would probably take more than a decade. The resulting ships would have small-size aviagroups, and their body would be quite worn. Thus, at the moment the project obviously looks quite meaningless.





Read more: http://hindi.sputniknews.com/world/20150217/1013465691.html#ixzz3S1k7Xy8w

@Ray, @pmaitra, @roma and all others
 
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pmaitra

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These are sister ships of our Gorshkov/Vikramaditya.

PRC might not have the epxerience of converting these ships, and PRC will surely struggle, but then, even SevMash struggled with them, considering these ships were built in Nikolayev, which is actually in Ukraine.
 

sorcerer

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Old article but has quiet an information about Chinese carrier procurements
[pdf] https://www.usnwc.edu/getattachment/ffc60b3e-d2e6-4142-9b71-6dfa247051f2/China-s-Aircraft-Carrier-Ambitions--Seeking-Truth- [/pdf]
 

Anikastha

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These are sister ships of our Gorshkov/Vikramaditya.

PRC might not have the epxerience of converting these ships, and PRC will surely struggle, but then, even SevMash struggled with them, considering these ships were built in Nikolayev, which is actually in Ukraine.
Most of the PLAN air wing pilots don't have experience in landing aircraft on carrier....I read somewhere on PAKISTANI DEFENCE FORUM that they are learning now....But india has experience past 2 decades:lol:
 

sorcerer

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China For The Time Being Losing The Arms Race With India

China has confirmed construction of a second aircraft carrier. Currently, only one aircraft carrier – "Liaoning", a rebuilt version of the Soviet aircraft carrier "Varyag" is being listed in the PLA's Navy.

The ship was purchased from Ukraine in 2005. The Chinese Navy commissioned "Liaoning" on the 24th of September, 2012. However, no aircraft had landed on the deck of the aircraft-carrier at the time. Flights of the ship-based fighter aircraft J-15 (counterfeit copy of the Russian Su-33) began only in late November of the same year. Prior to its scheduled maintenance repairs in the middle of 2014, the ship has already been out on several patrolling missions at high seas.

However, observers note that defensive weapons of the "Liaoning" are undeniably weak, barely sufficient for self-defense. This gives reason to believe, that at present, the Chinese aircraft carrier is not being considered as a full combat unit, but rather as a prototype for testing specific aircraft carrier systems and for the training of flight crew members.


The futuristic Chinese aircraft carrier is also seen by most experts as a further development of the Soviet project, but with the aircraft take-offs enabled with catapult mechanisms and having a dead weight tonnage of about 70 thousand tons. The ship can have either a turbine engine or a nuclear powered engine.

Apparently, ceremony of launching of the second Chinese aircraft carrier was held in the Dàlián shipyards in 2013. In April of the same year, Wang Min — the Communist Party secretary of Liaoning province, where China's first aircraft carrier is based, said the country was already working on a second ship to be completed around 2020.

Observers believe that such a statement was given out due to the fact that a little earlier — in February 2013, plans of commissioning of the third aircraft carrier – "INS Vishal" were reported by the Indian media. It is scheduled for completion by 2022. Most experts believe that "Vishal" will have a nuclear powered engine, which will allow the ship to embark on a journey with an average speed of 25 nautical sites, to up to 600 nautical miles. These characteristics, when being berthed at bases in the eastern ports, will allow flexibility to respond to any threat from the PLA's Navy.

It is clear that presently, India is leading in this naval arms race. The Indian Navy has a modern aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya in its fleet. By 2018, when the outdated aircraft carrier INS Viraat will be replaced by the newest INS Vikrant, India will get deliveries of all the 45, ordered in Russia, MiG-29K 4 ++ generation aircrafts – reliable and time-tested.


Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi addresses an election campaign rally for his Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) ahead of Delhi state election in New Delhi, India,
In the future, there is also a possibility of inducting into active service, the successful multi-purpose aircraft Tejas. And for the "large" aircraft carrier "Vishal", India, in general, can purchase any aircraft either of Russian or of Western production – ranging from the perspective ship-based modification of the T-50 to the export version of the F-35; and in this endeavor, New Delhi, unlike Beijing, is unlikely to face any kind of problem. A complete picture of the Indian leadership in the field of aircraft carriers can be endorsed by the approved, but not yet finalized deal, of purchase of the US-built all weather, carrier capable tactical airborne early warning aircraft – the E-2C Hawkeye, analogues of which China has yet to create.

On the Chinese side, the picture looks less rosy. Capability of the Chinese industry to produce almost anything has been known for a long time. China, like Japan during its period of growth, has taken a path of copying successful models. However, this is not the same thing as compared to the ability of independently designing something that is absolutely new.

So in 2001, China purchased from Ukraine, a prototype of the ship-based fighter aircraft Su-33, along with the set of design documentation. This resulted in the creation of the ship-based aircraft Shenyang J-15, which conducted its first flight in late August 2009. And in December, the Chinese media announced of the start of mass production of carrier-based fighter aircrafts. However, the weak point here was the engines.

The Chinese engines Shenyang WS-10, created on the basis of American CFM56 were of little use to be installed in the ship-based aircrafts. For a full-fledged production of the J-15's, development of a new engine, or purchase of Russian engines is necessary. The same problem prevents the light multipurpose fighter Chengdu J-10 from having an access to the decks of aircraft carriers. The only solution, as of today, is to equip the carrier-based J-10 with Russian engines RD-33 or RD-93, which the Chinese are unlikely to consent with.

The top brass of the PLA's Navy hopes that the problem of engines will be resolved before the Chinese-built aircraft carriers are commissioned. Until then "India is destined to rule the seas", at least the southern ones.

China For The Time Being Losing The Arms Race With India / Sputnik India English - News, Opinion, Radio

@pmaitra, @roma , @Hari Sud, @anupamsurey, @SREEKAR @Ray and all others!
 
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pmaitra

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PRC for the time being is losing the NAVAL arms race. The title is misleading, but I get the point. Indian Navy is far more experienced than PLAAN.
 

Ray

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The Chinese Naval ambition to surpass the US Navy or at least be at par in the Pacific is no where in the making since they do not have Carrier Based Task forces excepting for the one Carrier and mustering up with a mix of other naval vessels and submarines.

China's attempt to a predominant naval force in the Indian Ocean is an overreach since it has no aircraft carrier beyond the one mentioned, and that too is not quite up to its assigned capability. However, China can use its large submarine fleet to some effect. And its strategy of 'string of pearls' is an ingenuous plan to offset its disadvantage in the Indian Ocean.

In the Indian Ocean, the comparative assets is in India's favour. Further, with strategic partners, India is in the driver's seat.

It is difficult to manufacture indigenously all the assets essential to make an aircraft carrier a formidable weapon. China is still got a long way to go.
 
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sorcerer

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PRC for the time being is losing the NAVAL arms race. The title is misleading, but I get the point. Indian Navy is far more experienced than PLAAN.
On the article
I liked this point

Capability of the Chinese industry to produce almost anything has been known for a long time. China, like Japan during its period of growth, has taken a path of copying successful models. However, this is not the same thing as compared to the ability of independently designing something that is absolutely new.
This is what I trust India on...the know how of things from the conception to build.
 

pmaitra

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On the article
I liked this point

This is what I trust India on...the know how of things from the conception to build.
I agree.

I must add though, reverse engineering is not easy, however, building something from scratch always helps in competency building. From an R & D perspective, learning from failures is a very valuable part of self sufficiency.
 

Anikastha

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China For The Time Being Losing The Arms Race With India

China has confirmed construction of a second aircraft carrier. Currently, only one aircraft carrier – "Liaoning", a rebuilt version of the Soviet aircraft carrier "Varyag" is being listed in the PLA's Navy.

The ship was purchased from Ukraine in 2005. The Chinese Navy commissioned "Liaoning" on the 24th of September, 2012. However, no aircraft had landed on the deck of the aircraft-carrier at the time. Flights of the ship-based fighter aircraft J-15 (counterfeit copy of the Russian Su-33) began only in late November of the same year. Prior to its scheduled maintenance repairs in the middle of 2014, the ship has already been out on several patrolling missions at high seas.

However, observers note that defensive weapons of the "Liaoning" are undeniably weak, barely sufficient for self-defense. This gives reason to believe, that at present, the Chinese aircraft carrier is not being considered as a full combat unit, but rather as a prototype for testing specific aircraft carrier systems and for the training of flight crew members.


The futuristic Chinese aircraft carrier is also seen by most experts as a further development of the Soviet project, but with the aircraft take-offs enabled with catapult mechanisms and having a dead weight tonnage of about 70 thousand tons. The ship can have either a turbine engine or a nuclear powered engine.

Apparently, ceremony of launching of the second Chinese aircraft carrier was held in the Dàlián shipyards in 2013. In April of the same year, Wang Min — the Communist Party secretary of Liaoning province, where China's first aircraft carrier is based, said the country was already working on a second ship to be completed around 2020.

Observers believe that such a statement was given out due to the fact that a little earlier — in February 2013, plans of commissioning of the third aircraft carrier – "INS Vishal" were reported by the Indian media. It is scheduled for completion by 2022. Most experts believe that "Vishal" will have a nuclear powered engine, which will allow the ship to embark on a journey with an average speed of 25 nautical sites, to up to 600 nautical miles. These characteristics, when being berthed at bases in the eastern ports, will allow flexibility to respond to any threat from the PLA's Navy.

It is clear that presently, India is leading in this naval arms race. The Indian Navy has a modern aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya in its fleet. By 2018, when the outdated aircraft carrier INS Viraat will be replaced by the newest INS Vikrant, India will get deliveries of all the 45, ordered in Russia, MiG-29K 4 ++ generation aircrafts – reliable and time-tested.


Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi addresses an election campaign rally for his Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) ahead of Delhi state election in New Delhi, India,
In the future, there is also a possibility of inducting into active service, the successful multi-purpose aircraft Tejas. And for the "large" aircraft carrier "Vishal", India, in general, can purchase any aircraft either of Russian or of Western production – ranging from the perspective ship-based modification of the T-50 to the export version of the F-35; and in this endeavor, New Delhi, unlike Beijing, is unlikely to face any kind of problem. A complete picture of the Indian leadership in the field of aircraft carriers can be endorsed by the approved, but not yet finalized deal, of purchase of the US-built all weather, carrier capable tactical airborne early warning aircraft – the E-2C Hawkeye, analogues of which China has yet to create.

On the Chinese side, the picture looks less rosy. Capability of the Chinese industry to produce almost anything has been known for a long time. China, like Japan during its period of growth, has taken a path of copying successful models. However, this is not the same thing as compared to the ability of independently designing something that is absolutely new.

So in 2001, China purchased from Ukraine, a prototype of the ship-based fighter aircraft Su-33, along with the set of design documentation. This resulted in the creation of the ship-based aircraft Shenyang J-15, which conducted its first flight in late August 2009. And in December, the Chinese media announced of the start of mass production of carrier-based fighter aircrafts. However, the weak point here was the engines.

The Chinese engines Shenyang WS-10, created on the basis of American CFM56 were of little use to be installed in the ship-based aircrafts. For a full-fledged production of the J-15's, development of a new engine, or purchase of Russian engines is necessary. The same problem prevents the light multipurpose fighter Chengdu J-10 from having an access to the decks of aircraft carriers. The only solution, as of today, is to equip the carrier-based J-10 with Russian engines RD-33 or RD-93, which the Chinese are unlikely to consent with.

The top brass of the PLA's Navy hopes that the problem of engines will be resolved before the Chinese-built aircraft carriers are commissioned. Until then "India is destined to rule the seas", at least the southern ones.

China For The Time Being Losing The Arms Race With India / Sputnik India English - News, Opinion, Radio

@pmaitra, @roma , @Hari Sud, @anupamsurey, @SREEKAR @Ray and all others!
But they have quite number of submarines surface combat ships , and don't forget air wing of PLAAN ..We must have at least 6 N-subs , 20 sub( diesel-electric) and good amount of surface combat ships. I read somewhere that still PLAN air wing pilots are still Learning how to land an aircraft on A/C.:D
 
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anupamsurey

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it was already clear that the chinese aircraft carrier is nothing to boast about, its capabilities are very minimal and it was most probably envisioned to train and familiarize Chinese navy to the operations of aircraft carriers and to train its pilots for landing on AC's (just like the facilities we have in INS Hansa ). the point is no one will give you "the know how" for a advance weapon like an aircraft carrier, and if you want to build one from scratch (like INS Vikrant) then you must have decades of experience and know about every screw and nut of it. Chinese have none of these, Chinese couldn't steal it from others so they just repainted the russian ship from Ukrainians that was meant to be dismantled (that to in guise of a future floating casino).

the "Liaoning" in its current state is not a war machine, it cannot taste water away from china sea, but the next to come AC may be of some potential. still it probably will take decades for the chinese to master Aircraft carrier operations. so till then peace.
 

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