Religious Demographics in India

Discussion in 'Religion & Culture' started by SHURIDH, Feb 1, 2012.

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  1. Known_Unknown

    Known_Unknown Devil's Advocate Stars and Ambassadors

    Apr 21, 2009
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    Where did I ask you about Nagarhara? Would you like to go back and read my post again? I simply asked you for a primary source for your assertion that KoBras migrated to the Konkan from the northwestern frontier. You have thus far provided none. Among the many theories I've read (most backed up by DNA/genetic evidence), none has been so specific as to suggest the exact area of their origin. You're apparently the only one who knows, and you have no basis for your claims.

    What do you mean by "primary source"? Do you want the name of the person who saw those princes being imprisoned? Do you want this witness to write a book? If not, and if you will accept contemporary sources which narrated the story, then those sources have already been provided. Now if you are asking how do we know those sources were right, well, there's obviously no way to know anything for sure until you travel back in time and witness the incident yourself.

    If the level of certitude required is such, then it will be impossible to prove anything at all.
    Singh likes this.

    MAYURA New Member

    Apr 18, 2013
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    You are simply not getting my point. Of all hypotheses mine is most suitable as a bit of thinking can tell you. There can be or can not be primary sources for migrations and these are based on situations. As I have said that i am tired of teaching simple things in history to guys writing good english.

    I only require any mughal source talking about imprisioning 52 " princes" of rajputs and then getting freed by sixth guru. This is the simplest one can demand as mughal era has information even on how many rupees were derived from a particular district.

    If you are calling this much as impossible, i do not know how to proceed.

    SHURIDH Senior Member Senior Member

    Dec 14, 2011
    Likes Received:
    Murshidabad,Paschim banga,India.
    seems like people talking on ethnic group of india and origion of people and brahminism.
    but the thread is about demography
  4. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

    Sep 8, 2009
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    Is this now the random religion/history discussion thread?

    MAYURA New Member

    Apr 18, 2013
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    I was waiting for you as no matter how much you hate me and my ideas, I appreciate that you provide facts in favour of your theories which most of time are supported by historical sources.

    So can you help our matter getting solved by your knowledge of history?

    SHURIDH Senior Member Senior Member

    Dec 14, 2011
    Likes Received:
    Murshidabad,Paschim banga,India.
    It was a demography related informative thread but now

    SHURIDH Senior Member Senior Member

    Dec 14, 2011
    Likes Received:
    Murshidabad,Paschim banga,India.
    Its not a history thread.
    the subject of this thread is clear religious demography information.
    stay in topic.

    MAYURA New Member

    Apr 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    You need to give this advice to those who drifted as i did not bring any mention of " 52 rajput princes" in this thread. You need to read and check this.
  9. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

    Sep 8, 2009
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    Quite honestly, I am not interested in getting involved in this debate.
  10. MAYURA

    MAYURA New Member

    Apr 18, 2013
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    That is not surprising as this time it is not Gupta age myth that can be exploded but a myth which can afford itself to be circulated due to its use in leftist discourse.
  11. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

    Feb 23, 2009
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    Lets backtrack get to the meat of the debate.

    And which you are obstinately defending

    Your Point was

    Pasted from <>

    Coming to Points 1. and 3.

    Since, you admitted that you lifted Point 1. and Point 4. from the "Dictionary of Islam" written by Reverend TP Hughes of the Church, a century+ back. And you also agreed with him.



    Then you further said

    And then you further defended a book published in 19th Century on Islam, as the gospel truth about Sikhism


    But later you said this

    Pasted from <>

    Pasted from <>


    So we conclude from this

    Conclusion 1:
    Books written around the 20 the Century, by Foreigners are to be deemed Scholarly irrespective and their word is to be believed to be the gospel truth.
    No works written in the last Century shed any new light.
    Books written by "whiteman" are not necessarily right or correct.

    Then how can the work of TP Hughes be considered authoritative ? So we conclude that you reject on flimsy grounds anything which you find contrary to your pre-conceived and wild notions.

    Ergo TP Hughes work is to be rejected and your conclusion about Sikhs being an Islamic Sect are false.

    Conclusion 2: Despite being different in every way possible Sikhism is an Islamic Sect They are both iconoclast, with your showing any proof of either being iconoclast.
    The only difference between Islam and Sikhism is the prohibition of Halal and marriage with Muslims in Sikhism.
    The greatest Sikh king is actually a Hindu, and Sikhs helped their "Hindu" sisters and Sikh Guru gave up his life for "Dharma". The Passage which says Guru Tegh Bahadur gave up his life for the Pandits to adorn themselves with the Sacred Thread and Tilak is open to interpretation.

    Why would Sikhs, an Islamic Sect save their "Hindu" sisters from Muslims ? Why would a "Sikh" Guru give up his life for "Dharma" when they being an Islamic Sect they consider Hindus to be a "Kufar" ?

    Sikhs cannot be an Islamic Sect, because they saved their "Hindu" sisters from Muslims, refuse to marry muslims, eat halal, became martyrs for the cause of "kufar".

    So both your arguments in support of your allegations have been proven wrong.


    Coming to Point 2.

    "wherever brahmannic civilization was not entrenched,the muslims multiplied"

    I made two points
    A. Kashmir was the bastion of Brahmins and Brahminic Civilization, and today it is Muslim dominated.
    B. And in the case of Guru Tegh Bahadur Hindus themselves came to the Sikhs for their assistance to prevent their forcible conversions. Sikhs who you claim are an Islamic Sect. So Brahminic Civilization couldn't have stopped Islamic conversion.

    For A. You have not provided any counter-argument for the same.
    For B. You have given a boatload of arguments such as









    Pasted from <>

    Pasted from <>

    When I gave you a list of Contemporary Accounts :

    Pasted from <>

    This was your reply.

    Pasted from <>

    Pasted from <>


    Pasted from <>



    Pasted from <>


    Pasted from <>


    Lets hit it the other way,

    To counter Point 2

    "wherever brahmannic civilization was not entrenched,the muslims multiplied"


    To reiterate Point A

    1. Kashmir was an important centre of Brahminic Civilization.

    Works by Abhinavagupta, Ksemaraja, Jayrath, and Utplaladeva

    2. Kashmir today is a muslim dominated state.

    References: Govt Statistics

    So you have been proven wrong.


    References Regarding Point B

    1. Guru Tegh Bahadur gave up his life to save Hindus from Islam

    Selected Contemporary Sources (all within 4 decades of his martyrdom)

    1. Bachitar Natak by Guru Gobind Singh in 17th Century
    "He protected the janeu and tilak of the Hindus, It was a great event in the modern ages. For the sake of humankind, he sacrificed himself. He laid down his head but not his creed

    2. Das Gur Katha by Kavi Kankan in 1690/99
    Satiguru gave his head but he did not betray his faith.
    Protecting the janeu and tika, sing Prabhu’s praise.
    While cries of distress filled the world, there were cries of victory in
    heaven. "

    3. Sri Gur Katha by Bhai Jiwan Singh in 1699 (

    Bhai Jivan Singh was the one who rescued the severed head of Guru Tegh Bahadur and brought it to Anandpur Sahib.

    4. Prachin Sewa Das written in 1708 by an Udasi Ascetic

    ". Theministers expressed their happiness to the emperor over the fact that the pir of the Hindus,
    Guru Tegh Bahadur, had fallen into their hands, and said, "If you can make him accept our religion, then thousands of Hindus will automatically convert to Islam."

    5. Sri Gur Sobha written in 1711 by Sainapat
    Guru Tegh Bahadur emerged,
    He covered all of creation with his protection.
    He protected karam and dharam,
    His eternal story was witnessed in the Kaliyug.|14|
    His fame spread across the world like this,
    He safeguarded all dharam.
    Whose praise resounds in the three worlds,
    Satiguru, protected honor in this way.|15|
    Forehead mark, sacred thread, and places ofworship,
    They became firm because of his compassion.
    For the sake of dharam, he went to the abode of God"

    Selected Academic Sources

    Agnihotri, H.L. and Chand R. Agnihotri.Guru Tegh Bahadur: Hind di chadar.Hisar: Gopal
    Prakashan, 1996. 124p.
    Anand, Balwant Singh.Guru Tegh Bahadur: A biography.New Delhi: Sterling Publishers,
    1979. 235p.
    Anand, G.S.Guru Tegh Bahadur.Agra: Agra University, 1970.
    Anand, G.S.Some aspects of Guru Tegh Bahadur’s life and work.Panjab Past and Present,
    10(1), Apr 1976, 10–15.
    Attar Singh.Guru Tegh Bahadur upheld religious freedom.Spokesman Weekly, 24(14), 16–23
    Dec 1974, 2.
    Baagha, Ajit Singh.Palprsnavali or Guru Tegh Bahadur’s mission in historical perspective.
    Amritsar: Fakir Singh and Sons, 1975. 136p.
    Bakshi, S.R.Guru Teg Bahadur: Ninth Guru. InEncyclopaedia of Gurus.New Delhi: Rima
    Publishing House, 1994. Vol. 5.
    Bal, S.S.Awakening the oppressed. Guru Tegh Bahadur’s role and its reason.Sikh Review,
    23(264), Dec 1975, 56–60.
    Banerjee, A.C.Guru Tegh Bahadur (1621–1675). In Harbans Singh, Ed.Encyclopaedia of
    Sikhism. Patiala: Punjabi University, 1998. Vol. 4: 329–34.
    Bhandari, Sujan Rai.Guru Tegh Bahadur in the world of contemporary.Panjab Past and
    Present, 9(1), Apr 1975, 7–.
    Chatterji, Suniti Kumar.Guru Tegh Bahadur: The sacrifices.Sikh Review, 23(264), Dec 1975,
    Chronology ofGuru Tegh Bahadur.Panjab Past and Present, 9(1), Apr 1975, 233–36.
    Daljeet Singh (Raja).Guru Tegh Bahadur.Patiala: Language Department, 1971. 171p.
    Dalip Singh.Guru Tegh Bahadur.New Delhi: Young Sikh Cultural Association, 1975. 32p.
    Darshan Singh.Ninth Nanak: A historical biography.Jullundhur: K. Lal, 1975. 120p.
    Deora, Man Singh.Guru Tegh Bahadur: A select bibliography.Studies in Sikhism and Com-parative Religion, 2(1), Apr 1983, 132–48.
    Dhawan, S.K.Guru Tegh Bahadur, the ninth Guru: A chronology.Delhi: Deepalika Book
    Traders, 1976. 110p.
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    25(17), 22 Dec 1975, 3–4.
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    24(265), Jan 1976, 120–22.
    Doabia, Harbans Singh.Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib: Life history, sacred hymns and teach-ings: Original Panjabi & Hindi translation and transliteration. Amritsar: Singh Bros, 1975.
    Fauja Singh.Bhat Vahisas a source for the life of Guru Tegh Bahadur.Sikh Review, 24(265),
    Jan 1976, 75–85.
    Fauja Singh and Gurbachan Singh Talib.Guru Tegh Bahadur: Martyr and teacher.Patiala:
    Punjabi University, 1996. 185p. 2nd Ed.
    Ganda Singh.Guru Tegh Bahadur.Panjab Past and Present, 9(1), Apr 1975, i–ix.
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    Ganda Singh.Guru Tegh Bahadur commemoration volume.Patiala: Punjabi University, 1975.
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    Spokesman Weekly, 25(17), 22 Dec 1975, 5.
    Grewal, Dalvindar Singh.Life history of Guru Tegh Bahadur as recorded inBhatt Wahis. Sikh
    Review, 37(12), Dec 1989, 28–33.
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    11–18. Also inSpokesman Weekly, 31(12), 30 Nov 1981, 7–8.
    Guleria, J.S.Guru Tegh Bahadur.Sikh Review, 23(261), Sep 1975, 3–4.
    Guleria, J.S.Guru Tegh Bahadur: Prophet of humanism.Sikh Review, 24(266), Feb 1976, 7–9.
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    Annual Number 1978, 42.
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    1974, 3.
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    Number 1975, 10. Also inSikh Review, 24(265), Jan 1976, 123–24.
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    1976. 44p.
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    1993. 23p.
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    Publications, 1975. 262p.
    Josh, Mohinder Singh.The Mughals had arrested Guru Tegh Bahadur not once but thrice (1).
    Spokesman Weekly, Sept 2003, 36–40.
    Josh, Mohinder Singh.In 1675, Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib was arrested for the third time
    while protecting non-Sikhs human rights.Spokesman Weekly, Nov 2003, 36.
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    Anand Spencer, Eds.The Sikh tradition: A continuing reality.Patiala: Punjabi University, 1999,
    pp. 97–122.
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    Literature, 1(1), Sep 1977, 37–79.
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    Kohli, Mohinder Pal.Guru Tegh Bahadur: Testimony of conscience.New Delhi: Sahitya
    Akademi, 1992. 67p.
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    Apr 1975, 103–105.
    Kohli, Surinder Singh.Guru Tegh Bahadur and Padash Buranji.Spokesman Weekly, 25(15),
    Guru Tegh Bahadur Number 1975, 13–14.
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    Silver Jubilee Number 1976, 4–44.
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    1974, 6.
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    79–89; 3(1), Feb 1976, 183–97; andSikh Review, 24(265), Jan 1976, 26–26.
    Fauja Singh.Martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur.Panjab Past and Present, 9(1), Apr 1975,
    137–157. Also inSikh Review, 24(273), Sep 1987, 34–46.
    Fauja Singh and Talib, Gurbachan Singh.Guru Tegh Bahadur: Martyr and teacher.Patiala:
    Punjabi University, 1975. 211p.
    Ganda Singh.Guru Tegh Bahadur martyrdom: Capricious hagiography by some Sikh writer.
    Sikh Review, 31(329), May 1981, 48–52.
    Ganda Singh.Martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur.Amritsar: Guru Nanak Dev University, 1976.
    Ganda Singh.Martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur.Journal of Sikh Studies, 3(1), Feb 1976,
    109–182. Also inJournal of Indian History, 56(2), 15 Sep, 1982, 23–29; Panjab Past and
    Present, 9(1), Apr 1976, 191–267;Sikh Review, 24(270), Jan 1976, 20–37.
    Ganda Singh.Martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur studied in historical setting.Sikh Review,
    25(288), Dec 1977, 5–15; and 30(348), Dec 1982, 12–23. Also inPanjab Past and Present,
    11(2), Oct 1977, 201–212; and 22(2), Oct 1988, 103–114.
    Gill, Pritam Singh.Guru Tegh Bahadur: The unique martyr.Jullundur: New Academic
    Publishing Co, 1975. 124p.
    Grewal, J.S.Guru Tegh Bahadur: Prophet and martyr.Spokesman Weekly, 36(13), 1 Dec 1986,
    5 & 11.
    Gupta, Hari Ram.Guru Tegh Bahadur’s martyrdom: Its impact on history.Studies in Sikhism
    and Comparative Religion, 2(2), Oct 1983, 91–108.
    Gurbachan Singh.Martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur.Illustrated Weekly of India, 96(49),
    7–13 Dec 1975, 8–13.
    Gurbux Singh.Martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur and the Muslim and Hindu scholars of
    Persia.Punjab History Conference Proceedings, 10th session, 1976, 65–82.
    Gurbux Singh.Real facts about the martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur.Sikh Review, 25(277),
    Jan 1977, 34–51.
    Gurdeep Singh.Guru Tegh Bahadur: The unique martyr.Sikh Review, 25(288), Dec 1977,
    Harbans Singh.Guru Tegh Bahadur’s martyrdom.Sikh Review, 32(337), Jan 1982, 41–45.
    Harbans Singh.Guru Tegh Bahadur: Martyr and teacher.Spokesman Weekly, 26(12), 29 Nov
    1976, 3–44.
    Harbans Singh.Panoramic view: Guru Nanak to martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur.Sikh
    Review, 24(265), Jan 1976, 5–22.
    Harchand Singh.True significance of Guru Tegh Bahadur’s martyrdom.Sikh Review, 24(265),
    Jan 1976, 117–19.
    Harindra Singh.Execution of Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur.Modern Review, 139(6), Jun 1976,
    Hukam Singh.Guru Tegh Bahadur’s martyrdom and after-vigilance for controlling commer-cialized vice.SpokesmanWeekly, 16(18), 19Dec 1966; and 25(15), Guru Tegh Bahadur Number
    1975, 39–40.
    Kapur Singh.Who killedGuruTeghBahadur?Journal of Sikh Studies, 2(2), Aug 1975, 153–66.
    Khurana, Tilak Raj.Guru Tegh Bahadur: Second martyr in the war of Indian independence.
    Spokesman Weekly, 24(38), Jun 23, 1975, 5–6.
    Khushwant Singh.Guru Tegh Bahadur: The second martyr Guru.Sikh Review, 24(265), Jan
    1976, 23–27.
    Kulraj Singh.Confrontation and martyrdom.Sikh Review, 23(264), Dec 1975, 73–80.
    Lakhinder Singh and Satinder Singh.The supreme sacrifice of Guru Tegh Bahadur.
    Gravesend, England: Sikh Missionary Society, 1975. 40p.
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    Onkar Singh.Martyr extraordinary: Guru Tegh Bahadur.Sikh Review, 49(12), Dec 2001,
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    2002, 21–25.
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    Spokesman Weekly, 24(14), 16–23 Dec 1974, 9–10.
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    1979, 5; and 30(15), 8 Dec 1980, 5, 9.
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    18(1), 1999, 78–89.
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    Bahadur.Sikh Review, 50(2), Feb 2002, 42–50.
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    Studies in Sikhism and Comparative Religion, 9(1), Apr 1990, 124–32.
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    1993, 3–5.
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    Sublok, N.N.Supreme sacrifice.Spokesman Weekly, 33(15), 12 Dec 1983, 6.
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    Day Supplement, 1977, 9–10.
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    collection of research articles.Patiala: Punjabi University, 1976. 268p.
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    1975. 211p.
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    Committee, 1967. 358p.
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    Sikh Review, 37(3), Mar 1989, 53–59.
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    Spokesman Weekly, 25(15), Guru Tegh Bahadur Number 1975, 15–16.

    It appears now

    There are contemporary sources to prove you wrong and your theory has been debunked by scholars.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  12. pankaj nema

    pankaj nema Senior Member Senior Member

    Oct 1, 2009
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    @ Mayura

    Sikhism SAVED Hinduism from Islamists especially Aurangzeb

    I am a proud Hindu but I am aware of the important role played by Sikhs when Aurangzeb was
    Mountains of Hindu skulls

    It was the Maratha rebellion and later on the Sikh rebellion which saved Hindus in North India
    from extinction because the Mughal forces were distracted
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  13. MAYURA

    MAYURA New Member

    Apr 18, 2013
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    I agree with him more than i disagree , however i did not lift 1st point from him. It is my own thought based on world history. Anyway, my original point is that sikhism is quasiabrahmic and not fully abrahmic like judaism or christianity. Now you would ask why quasiabrahmic, it is because despite being iconoclastic in nature sikhism does not believe in killing and raping non sikhs unlike the desert bloc religions and it also forbids killing of innocents. When i call sikhism as quasiabrahmic, i mean its fierce iconoclasm and nothing more.

    I do not have any wild notions first. I am not asking you to consider the work of TP Hughes as gospel but saying that similar thoughts have been arrived at by people far more intelligent than me and you. However, the idea that his work is to be forsaken because it is 100 years old is wrong as holy literature of sikhs was available to him so you can not attack on this ground. Yes, books written by whitemen may not be true and there is nothing so remarkable about this.

    I never said that I consider TP Hughes work good as he was white so rest of your exercise is nipped in bud.

    I have already said that sikhs were quasiabrahmic not fully abrahmic. Sikhism is the only monotheistic religion which does not believe in jehad or crusade so humanity is still there unlike full abrahmics, it is sikhism's icnoclasm which led me to call it Islamic sect. The concept of one true god and attack on mother godesses is due to islamic nature of sikhism however in behaviour and conduct sikhs are more indic than arabs like sikhs abhor cousin marriage which is normal for an arab.

    You are asking why sikhs were protecting hindu sisters, well they were great heroes but this does not mean that on a theoretical level they are not quasiabrahmic.

    For A I have given arguments like kashmir being too small to take for our study. Normally, jats are taller than Biharis but there are jats in haryana who may be lesser in height than many bihari women so do not count on exceptions.

    Kashmir was so small that even a few people turning to islam may have great repercussions. Anyway, the hindu poipulation in JK is more than 30 percent which is more than Punjab as a whole where hindus are less than 20 percent.

    Secondly, producing writers like Kalhana, Kshemendra, Abhinavgupta does not mean society is heavily brahminized as example of kerala proves. The fact is that kashmir had low level of brahmanic civilization as it was housed by many hill tribesmen which down to our ages were savages. The Gilgit area had lecherous people which shows the primitive social nature of the communities . Kashmir was land of Agams but it was housed by damars and bakarwals mainly. Read Rajatarangini to know that kashmir had large segment of people outside brahmanical social order just like Punjab and East Bengal.

    Same is the case with Kerala where brahmins appeared too late and were very less so they could not aryanize the area and we have situation that majority of kerala relish beef which brahmins abhor and no mention of Shankaracharya can change the fact that kerali society was less brahmanized as compared to other south states and that is why you have large number of muslims and christians in the state.

    I have told you about its flexibility as far as interpretation is concerned. There are many sikh authors like Bishan Singh who question this.

    From all this we may conclude that Guru Tegabahadur is described as someone who protected janeu and tilak but do you know that janeu and tilak in those times was not just held by brahmins but also other upper castes.?

    The moment you give me a source that talks about kashmiri pandit thing, i will in all humility accept that Tegabahadur did save large number of pandits.

    You have done great work but any unbiased person will tell me and you that your one liners open to many interpretations are not proving kashmir story at all.

    Your massive evidence has forced me to concede that Tegabahdadur did save few upper caste hindus from hands of Aurangzeb and this is great but does not prove kashmiri story which is surprising. The thing that raised my suspicion last time was that no mughal source talks about any such thing so same must be there in sikh sources but so far Kashmiri thing is not there.

    I am fully aware of billions of secondary books by scholars but i never demanded them so your idea of frightening me is not logical.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  14. MAYURA

    MAYURA New Member

    Apr 18, 2013
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    No one saved hindus, it were hindus who saved themselves from other invaders. The problem is that sikhism became active as force in military area only after marathas had sacked the mughal dominions. Sikhs were completely powerless in front of aurangzeb or his sons so the idea that they protected anyone at that time is wrong. Guru Tegabahadur was also serving in mughal army and Gobind Singhji later on became trusted man of son of Aurangzeb. Even Aurangzeb did not have bad relations with Gobind singhji at one point of time.

    Sikhs controlled an area which today is 70 percent muslim so i do not know how they saved anything? Sikh empire had many areas but very few of them are in present hindustan so the suggestion of they saving north indian hindus is a myth.

    However, they played a good role in saving hindu women from amorours advances of afghans and also stopped cow killing things no one can deny but saving hindus is going too far.

    If I am allowed, I can show that they in longer run could not do much as areas dominated by sikhs were already muslim majority ones.
    A chauhan likes this.
  15. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

    Feb 23, 2009
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    1. How is Sikhism Iconoclastic ? Please provide relevant source, arguments, evidences and facts. I can't take your word, which means nothing.

    2. Why is being Iconoclastic a necessary and sufficient for a religion to be called Abrahamic ?

    3. Abrahamic Religions typically are Islam, Judaism and Christianity because they have similar spiritual and theological traditions, however, you have in one broad sweep declared that to be a non-criterion. Please provide convincing arguments, and atleast a dozen scholarly works which agree with you.

    4. Calling a religion Quasi-Abrahamic when it has no theological similarity is disingenuous and stretching the truth.
    You and a Rat have over 90% Similarity in DNA, so are you a quasi rat or is a rat a quasi human ?

    1. Which People more intelligent than me have arrived at the same conclusions as TP Hughes ? Please provide at least a dozen sources and their qualifications.
    2. TP Hughes wrote a Book on Islam, not on Sikhism. His treatment of Sikhism makes a meage ~1% of his 700pages. His Scholarship of Sikhism is suspect, to put mildly
    3. Please provide citations, references, convincing arguments which prove that TP Hughes was an authoritative scholar of Sikhism, and rest of the Scholars who researched Sikhism all their lives need to have their works refected because of the few pages Reverend TP Hughes wrote about Sikhs in his book on Islam.

    4. There are 100 Pages of References only I can give you which differ from TP Hughes conclusions. If you want I will past every single one of them. And I can provide screenshots to provide proof of those 100 pages.

    Same old horse shit from you Avantivarman.

    You have not provided any convincing arguments, references, evidences. This is your opinion, and it means jackshit. You are discredited.

    I say you are quasicircumcised, because you talk just like a circumcised mullah. Or better you practice quasi-incest because you talk just like an inbred mullah.

    For a religion to be called Abrahamic, it must have a common spiritual tradition, "allegedly" Sharing traits doesn't cut it.

    You have to first disprove this notion, then establish that being iconoclastic is a sufficient and necessary condition to be called an Abrahamic religion, and then provide examples of each of the Abrahamic Religions are Iconoclastic.

    You just insulted over 2 billion living humans by calling their religions as inhumane and because of their practice of their religion, they themselves are inhumane. Well done.

    You are yet to provide any examples of how Sikhism is "Iconoclastic " ?
    How come Islam is Iconoclastic ?
    Why sharing the common trait or Iconoclasm is a necessary and sufficient condition to call Sikhism an Islamic Sect ?
    And why does Sikhism's theology and spiritual traditions which make it antithetical to Islamic theology still make it an Islamic Sect ?
    Which other idiots share this opinion ? I would love to see references.


    1. The first two letters of Sikhism are Ik Omkar, which translates to there is but one God, and it is in the form of Om. I didn’t know OM, the one true God, was an Islamic concept.

    2. What do you mean by Attack on Mother Goddess ?

    3. What is Islamic nature of Sikhism ? What is Hindu nature of Sikhism ? What is Secular nature of Sikhism ? What is fun nature of Sikhism ? What is Scientific nature of Sikhism ? What is Christian nature of Sikhism ?
    Please provide examples, references, evidences and arguments.

    Turks didn't marry their Cousins, ergo Turks are Indic too.

    Sikhs were great heroes because it was in their "islamic nature", to fight Muslims to save the honour of Hindu women, when the Hindu men were hapless.

    Do you see the dichotomy ?

    A Hypothesis to be accepted has to be true and valid everywhere.

    Your Hypothesis is wherever Brahminic Civilization was there the Muslims didn't multiply.

    Lets start with the Crown of Brahminic Civilization, Kashmir. In Kashmir, Muslims are in a majority. Ergo Proved Wrong.

    Case closed. Every region of India is small when compared to the United Landmass.

    A facetious argument.

    If I say that no Jaat can be smaller than a Bihari, then I am making a claim and even if 1 Bihari is taller than a Jaat, then my claim is quashed.
    If I say that Jaats are on an average taller than Biharis, then I am allowing room for exceptions and relying on statistics to support me.

    You were quite clear when you said that where-ever there was Brahminic Civilization there the Muslims didn't multiply.

    Please don't shift goalposts.

    Could you provide
    1. Govt Census report to prove your claim
    2. IF not then any authoritative or reputable work

    Now, we are in a quandry and a royal mess Vibhakar Singh from Mumbai.

    In the definition of Brahminic Civilization you said

    Then you claim Kashmir had low level Brahmanic Civilization, becauseDuggar Desh, Baltistan etc. were inhabited by savages.

    Since you are perhaps not aware of "Kashmir" it is made up of different regions : Jammu (Dogra), Na-Azad Kashmir(Punjabi/Dogri),Ladakh(Ladakhi),Baltistan(Balti), and finally Kashmir.

    Lets talk about the Kashmir Region (Kashmir is a Vale nestled between Duggar lands(Punjabi and related dialect speaking), Baltistan(Tibetan Languages)

    1. It Practiced Saivism
    2. It had a well defined system of caste, in fact Brahmins were the dominant, and overwhelming majority and perhaps for all practical purposes the only caste
    3. Abstained from Beef (Sikhs got Beef banned when they assumed control of Kashmir)
    4. They followed Itihas, Puranas, and Vedantic literature.

    So it satisfies all your conditions

    Now, the issue is this
    1. Brahminic Civilization and its arbitrary definition has been invented by you
    2. Brahminic Civilization's levels are arbitrarily defined by you
    3. Sources and Texts which point out to a regions Brahminic Civilization are also arbitrarily decided by you
    4. Regions where your hypothesis fails, you reject it on flimsy grounds.

    In such a case you can never be wrong.

    The interpretation of a particular passage can be different depending on individual to individual, acknwoledged.

    But Avantivarman what did I do ?

    I threw at you contemporary sources which had a common signifying thread which proved that Guru Tegh Bahadur martyred himself for the cause of Hindus.

    For eg.

    Text 1 says Roses are red.
    Text 2 says there are many flowers, of which roses are red
    Text 3 says the most prestigious amongst red flower is the rose.

    From all three texts what data do I arrive at ? Roses are Red.

    "Giani Bishan Singh of Khalsa College, Amritsar (1957) has translated the entire Dasam Granth.
    He has translated the line, “Tilak Janju Rakha Prabh Ta Ka” as “The Almighty God protected the Tilak and Janju
    of the Hindus.”
    Translating the next line “Dharam het saka jin kiya,” Giani Bishan Singh
    writes its meaning as, “Guru did this saka (incident) for the sake of Dharma.”

    What has Giani Bishan Singh questioned ?

    Can you please name atleast 50 sources which Question this ? I have provided contemporary and Scholarly sources.
    Including hundreds of those which deal specifically with the martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur.

    Having different intrepretations by different authors doesn't negate the common thread that Guru Tegh Bahadur's martyred saved the Hindus from conversion to Islam.

    You have actually bolstered my argument. Okay all Upper Caste Hindus at the time did wear Tilak and Janeu.

    This proves that the martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur saved Upper Caste Hindus from conversion.

    Now getting back to Sikh History, the "sakhis" of the Gurus were compiled together in various granths which were published later. The establishment of Sikh rule and the decline of Mughal empire, prompted efforts to collect, collate and publish Sikh accounts.

    You wanted contemporary sources, of the time when the Sikh Guru was martyred and the next Sikh Gurus sons were martyred. And yet it was thrown at you.

    For the sake of argument, there is no source about Kashmiri Pandits. Although, if you read the academic works on martyrdom there are plenty. And if you read the later Sikh history, there are detailed accounts.

    Those couldn’t have been published earlier, because the Sikhs were being hunted by the Mughals.

    But there are atleast 4 contemporary sources which point out that the Sikh Guru did save the Hindus write to wear Tilak and Janeu, in effect not only did they save a large number of Pandits, but all those who did wear the Tilak and Janeu.

    Who cares about the Kashmir story ?

    Look at this way

    1. Your hypothesis is bs
    2. Your hypothesis has been proven wrong because Kashmir Valley is Muslim dominated
    3. Brahminic Civilzation couldn't prevent muslims from multiplying, because this civilizations members themselves were saved by the Sikh Gurus.


    Almost all of the Academic Sources lay emphasis on Kashmir Pandit Story, but irrespect it proves to me that Hinduism was saved by the sacrifice of the Sikh Gurus. The mountain of evidence is too big to brush aside and/or be dwarfed by petty individuals inflated egos.

    Fortunately, Scholars are Scholars, and you are just an internet troll.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  16. blank_quest

    blank_quest Senior Member Senior Member

    Aug 4, 2012
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    religious thekedars taking thekedari and posting over an ''idea of god", :lol:
  17. blank_quest

    blank_quest Senior Member Senior Member

    Aug 4, 2012
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    I believe there are no honest cats.
  18. TrueSpirit

    TrueSpirit Senior Member Senior Member

    Jun 17, 2009
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    Forget It....Trace my IP if you can

    In post 252 of this thread : early-mauryan-temples-discovered-hardoi, you wrote that:

    Could you please the details of that book ?
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  19. LurkerBaba

    LurkerBaba Staff Administrator

    Jul 2, 2010
    Likes Received:
    Did not see this snippet

    How can you expect people to take you seriously when you're posting nonsense like this ?

    Thread closed.
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