Discussion in 'Religion & Culture' started by SHURIDH, Feb 1, 2012.
I am done with you and will start my own thread and i was just replying to you.
The question of faith arose when you question their martyrdom and their refusal to care about their own lives. If the Sikh Gurus couldn't save themselves then how could they save others. I asked a similar question, if Ram and Krishan too died and couldn't save their loved ones then why worship them ?
The tale of Martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur is well known.
Kashmiri Brahmins came to Guru Tegh Bahadur to save them from Aurangzebs conversion spree.
He told Aurangzeb that if he could convert him to Islam, then all Kashmiri Brahmins would follow suit. He gave up his life, but not his religion.
In societies where clergy converts to another religion, the rest fall. @civfanatic can give more examples here.
Aurangzeb began conversions in Kashmir, because the Kashmir Brahmins were at the top (literally and figuratively). If Kashmiri Brahmins would've converted to Islam, rest of India would've also followed suit.
Now you may call this dubious, because anything that doesn't suit is obviously lies, and all your fantastical inventions are true.
If you report posts then the staff will look into it.
Now what can I say to this? It is your website so spread another myth( myth is not how the gurus gave their lives but that kashmiri brahmins conversion meant whole india converting and this is worst i have read anywhere as there were brahmin converts in other parts as well but noone changed his religion) rather conveniently.
Please check who started this discussion on sikh gurus and 22 men with banis including muslims. It was you not me.
Your assertion is that Sikh Gurus played no part in saving Hindus or Hinduism. You are welcome to this notion.
The Brahmin Samaj seems to view it differently.
I have nothing more to add to any myths that may destroy your fragile worldview.
Please check in which context it was made. If you have an issue, use report feature.
I have no issue as small diversions are common thing and I understand this but do know that no brahmin(sans secular) in UP or Assam or Tamil Nadu thinks that he is there because of great gurus. that is the only thing I want to say and in case moderators like you allow me i would like to open a thread on the myth separately.
Do Brahmins in Kashmir think that ? If yes, then it proves that atleast in one province it was not Brahmanism that saved them from Islam. So your entire argument falls flat on its face.
You may not open any topic on religions or caste, because you have a nefarious agenda. I would advise you to stick to defence and security related topics, if you wish to last longer on this forum.
I am done with you. I value my sanity.
I had wished not to continue but you insist on spreading the myth on a basis that brahmins think so. One Kashmiri pandit told me that azan was called in sanskrit so I should believe that too. Which contemporary book tells us that aurangzeb the butcher forced kashmiri pandits with an option to convert or die and then they contacted Guru Tegabahadur to save their skin? No more abuses and insults simply need a source not some tradition and we will get our matter resolved.
BTW, i am not denying Tegabahadur's firm resolve in face of that turk bastard and his popularity but simply the source and a contemporary one not some khuswant singh type or some random akali website.
deleted due to double posting
Yes, but till when I cannot send/respond to messages or report posts. It's necessary tool for everyone on forum.
Don't you agree that report feature should be available for everyone? So, that things are not allowed to deteriorate if a thread is going haywire.
There was a bug with your permissions since you're a very old member who suddenly started posting. It should be fixed now
On one instance you said KoBras are from Afghanistan because a Brahmin Scholar said so.
In another instance you quoted Baudyana dharmasutra.
In another instance you quoted a century old book by some Christian Clergyman.
Most of your posts rely on traditional or mythological or uninformed sources. There is no scientific or academic rigor in them.
You are suffering from a terrible terrible case of confirmation bias.
Now, you expect me to provide you a contemporary source ?
What kind of a hypocrite are you ?
Are Hindu religious texts superior to Sikh historical sources ? Why ?
This is not something that happened many manvantra ago, but only ~340 summers ago.
There are historical Gurudwaras marking that site of execution, imprisonment, and funeral pyres. There are dozens and dozens of accounts.
Goto any decent university dealing with Sikh studies and you can get your answer on the source.
You are not willing to acknowledge it no matter what kinds of facts are thrown at you.
You are denying his martyrdom, this was a defining moment for Sikhism.
Since, Sikhs will always lie/exaggerate about their own history just like muslims
Here you go with a Brahmin Source
INDIA'S SAINT-SOLDIERS--BIRTH OF THE KHALSA
PanunKashmir is run by Kashmiri Brahmins, and this article is also written by a Kashmiri Brahmin.
So a ridiculous failure in producing a contemporary account and abuse me incessantly as it would not affect me.
Produced a Brahmin source. @MAYURA bhaiyaji
That's unbecoming of a DFI Moderator :shocked:
Weren't you supposed to assume moral high ground & lead by example in face of "heat"directed at you? Just wondering.
Look, I am a man of integrity and no one can dare call me dishonest and if my theories are wrong, it is because i may be believing that but i do not trick others. I never asked about brahmin or buddhist sources , i asked about a contemporary be it brahmin, shinto, buddhist, sikh or mughal source of that time mentioning the story so stop accusing me of bias. Produce any source of 17th century which talks about this and i will accept that.
It was you who ridiculously claimed that thing and once i requested( as humbly as possible for me) , you apparently failed and let me tell you ask @civafanatic or any historian anywhere to give me a single contemporary account from either side that is mughal or sikh which proves your claim.
I can say with utmost confidence that not even 6 billion people can produce a thing which does not exist.
BTW, if insults could have been avoided , it would have been better. I know how Bhaiyyaji is used in non hindi belt and in what sense.
There was no heat directed at him , and since you are also of kashmir so please know that the stuff about Guru Tegbahadur getting killed for saving Kashmiri brahmins is not supported by any contemporary account be it mughal or sikh leave alone brahmin.
Is it crime to ask for a contemporary account?
I don't know how could you chose to ignore some of the other accounts ?? The scholarship works rely on all these accounts, and triangulation of data.
In fact if you can read Punjabi, Persian or Urdu (some are in braj) then you can find many other dozens of accounts which are yet to be translated to Engish which also have been taken into account
And if you visit Sis Ganj Gurudwara and you can still see the jail cell where Guru Tegh Bahadur was imprisoned, its near Jama Masjid. And the tree under which he was executed.
There are various accounts and paintings of the said tortures he had to undergo before being executed. And this is also ties in with the conversion of Kashmiri Pandits to Khalsa panth, and their subsequent martyrdom in battles against Mughals.
Gurudwara Rakab Ganj the spot where Guru Tegh Bahadur's body was cremated by Lakhi Shah Vanjara. A mosque built on these grounds was removed and Gurudwara built when Sikhs stormed Red Fort and forced the Mughal King to allow them to build Gurudwaras at these historic locations in 1783. Its near Gurudwara Bangla Sahib, which was the house of Raja Jai Singh of Amber.
And Gurudwara Sis Ganj, Anandpur Sahib, where his severed head was brought and cremated by Guru Gobind Singh. This is also the act for which Bhai Jiwan Singh was called "Rangretta Guru da Beta".
I haven't heard of any Sikh scholar really criticizing Maucliffe's works.
From what i have found in last two days, there is no mention of this kashmiri pandit story in any source before 1750 so I do not think it is going anywhere.
I never doubted the martyrdom or all details but the kashimiri stuff is not mentioned in bachittar( vichitra as we say in hindi) natak which is most reliable written by Guru Gobind Singhji so case closed. Let us stop here and accept that it was later story spread by some people otherwise, it would have been mentioned at length.
There is one passage which is open to many interpretation and far from being satisfactory.
BTW, I apply same rigor to our history and so I do not find any basis for Jaichandra being traitor or Pala kings being less casteist despite being buddhists.
Sankaracharya is said in tradition to have come some 2500 years before our time but I find him somewhere around 600-800 ad.
Separate names with a comma.