Reforming Hinduism

[Cliff@sea]

Ok chandrabhan saab

Lol . . . !!

Not that impressed with him . . .TBH
but since he's obviously contributed more to the society i still take it as a compliment.

 

[Iamanidiot]

How about fusing Narayana guru , Ambedhkar,Basveswara and Periyar?

 

[LurkerBaba]

there's something which i learnt at an Art of Living course and found largely true to experience

Whatever you resist would persist .


If person was completely at terms with his surname and than he chooses to abandon it , yes it would lead exactly to what u just hypothised,

but when surnames still have an stigma attached to them , any attempt to escape it only complicates the problem ,

The solution is through complete acceptance. . . . only once a person has completely endorsed his caste identity,
can he break the shackles that come along with it .

Okay but that doesn't change my point. I'm not suggest a USSR style religious repression, but something like a Bhakti Movement 2.0, though with less existentialism.

 

[Cliff@sea]

Open Priesthood,Urbanization,Own Caste maths,RSS which also emphasises on bonding,a gurudwara like institution which promotes inter community bonding and togetherness are some I can think off

I endorse all of the above as better methods than the prevalent ones.

 

[Cliff@sea]

Okay but that doesn't change my point. I'm not suggest a USSR style religious repression, but something like a Bhakti Movement 2.0, though with less existentialism.

I am not against such a reform if it takes place . . . But the solution doesn't lie in them .

IMO that would be just like attempting to change the image on the screen while the projector runs that same roll

The Lower Caste of India face some very real ills, some very real and tangible diseases that lie with in their own society
and for which whoever or whatever you may hold responsible for ,

But the Initiative required to correct those ills, will always remain with the Lower castes.

No one else can correct it for them .

 

[Iamanidiot]

The more I look at it the Karnataka math srltyle solution seems to be more sustainable in the long term as each community will be compelled to look after its own self-fish needs.This is more so needed because Navayana failed in south-india

 

[Cliff@sea]

The more I look at it the Karnataka math srltyle solution seems to be more sustainable in the long term as each community will be compelled to look after its own self-fish needs.This is more so needed because Navayana failed in south-india

I find significantly more awakening and Pro activism among the Lower castes in Southern India, than the Northern India

 

[Iamanidiot]

I find significantly more awakening and Pro activism among the Lower castes in Southern India, than the Northern India

Significantly caste wars are extremely brutal,organized and blood curdling in the south.Rayalseema,Kerala,south T.N,the naxalism that originated in the south are something which makes bihar and UP law and order issues look silly

 

[Cliff@sea]

Significantly caste wars are extremely brutal,organized and blood curdling in the south.Rayalseema,Kerala,south T.N,the naxalism that originated in the south are something which makes bihar and UP law and order issues look silly

May be i am not educated enough in this matter to speak intelligently about it . . .So i'll reserve my Opinion . .

I confess there's a lot that i am unaware of .

 

[Iamanidiot]

I find significantly more awakening and Pro activism among the Lower castes in Southern India, than the Northern India

One of the reasons why a BSP did not originate in South

 

[Energon]

Energon Slavery and the caste system only exhibit convergence but they are entirely two different beasts

YIkes!!!You misunderstood me. I wasn't trying to equate slavery with the caste system, and yes they are two entirely different beasts. I was referring to various models where the commonality is limited to the attempt to rehabilitate a segment of a population that was for many generations broken and systematically suppressed. It doesn't matter how. It could be cultural as in the case of India, social/economic as in the case of slavery, institutional as in the case of South Africa or British India, political like Palestine and North Korea or a confluence of factors like in the case of the australasian Polynesians and Aborigines.

Blacks for all the ills that ail their society have not institutionalized Victimhood to such an extent as the Lower Castes of India,
where a word such as DALIT which in all its connotations, implying victim hood is considered more respectable than some other
Title that simply indicates their Vocation e.g Chamar (Which simply mean Leather Tanner) .

I personally would much prefer being called a Chamar or a Mahar than a Dalit , a symbol of emasculation, which lower castes of
today have taken a great liking to simply coz it absolves them of all responsibility for their own ills because with such identity as
DALIT the blame completely shifts to others and thus the responsibilty for correcting them too .

If i remember correctly Dr. BR Ambedkar the great icon of Scheduled Castes of this nation never endorsed such self defeating means towards empowerment.
in none of his speeches or writings did i ever come across this demeaning Title

The Blacks in America inspite of having suffered no less persecution have gained Political power today
while fighting only for equality never for compensatory sops.

Oh no sir, there's ample institutionalized victimhood here too, along with a plethora of self defeating factors within the black community that has hampered their own growth. I think this is pretty much standard anywhere when organized stratification takes place. And yes, there are many upwardly mobile black people who share your frustration... however the fact remains that there are many, many other complex factors that foster the victim mentality and paralysis, and not all the blame can be heaped upon them. There are of course many from the lower castes who have been smart and taken full advantage of the urbanization process but the vast majority of the lower class have been left out.

Ambedkar whom I've only recently started reading about was no doubt an extremely empowered individual with an outlook to match. Ambedkar was a great leader of the civil rights movement (if we can call it that) and his vision to make it a bottom up movement was truly commendable, but Ambedkar as a person did not represent the common dalit population; to say he was exceptional would be an understatement. This is also why nobody could fill his shoes and his message and movement was soon exploited by political operatives for their own gain.

In terms of political power the lower castes of India actually have more political pull than the blacks simply because they outnumber everyone else. But as I've mentioned elsewhere, the problem is that due to their dilapidated condition they don't know what to do with that political power and the shady crooks from the political class who exploit them do so at the expense of the upper castes thereby furthering the divide among the upper and lower castes.

Either way, based on the data gathered from numerous other models out there, saying that the lower castes are entirely at fault for their inability to rise is overly simplistic and inaccurate.

 

[LurkerBaba]

^
Analogy with the African-American Civil Rights Movement is going to turn this thread in a different direction.

"Lower Caste" is not a monolithic term. OBCs are politically empowered, SC/STs not so much

 

[Iamanidiot]

Lurker true even then they are subtelities.Yadav leaders in the north may be politically empowered but the same yadavs hailing from the south are miles ahead of him socio-economically.

 

[Energon]

Yes indeed, a half hearted attempt in this direction was made by Gandhi after his sojourn with Ambedkar's revolutionary ideas,
though he found it hard to let go of the foundations of his belief (yet i m grateful for whatever meager crumbs he threw, for
even in that he was a Pioneer)

but Ultimately the Fountainhead of the change that Lower caste society of India so desperately seeks has to be found from with in it .

I recently attended an interesting lecture series by Ramchandra Guha where he talked about how in spite of the struggle to be proven right, Gandhi and Ambedkar were actually synergistic in working toward the greater objective of eliminating the caste system. Gandhi being of higher caste launched a top down movement (which may have seemed condescending to lower castes but was genuine nonetheless) and Ambedkar as a member of the lower caste worked upward. This is exactly how social movements should happen.

But the Initiative required to correct those ills, will always remain with the Lower castes.

No one else can correct it for them .

I get what you're saying but you cannot realistically expect a large group to empower themselves and solve very complex problems in a healthy way when they have been robbed of all decision making power to begin with. This is also why they are susceptible to picking up guns and pursuing a failed ideological movement. The lower castes have been repressed brutally for centuries if not eons and made to believe from birth that their existence is limited to the confines of their low caste. This is not to say that they should not do anything at all and just sit there. Lower caste members with means and education should step up and inspire change from within. However the upper castes who have had all the power and its benefits for so long can't just sit idle either. It has to go both ways.



I particularly love this quote from the White Tiger [QUOTE="• Aravind Adiga, The White Tiger]"Go to Old Delhi,and look at the way they keep chickens there in the market. Hundred of pale hens and brightly colored roosters, stuffed tightly into wire-mesh cages. They see the organs of their brothers lying around them.They know they are next, yet they cannot rebel. They do not try to get out of the coop. The very same thing is done with humans in this country."[/QUOTE]

 

[Energon]

^
Analogy with the African-American Civil Rights Movement is going to turn this thread in a different direction.

"Lower Caste" is not a monolithic term. OBCs are politically empowered, SC/STs not so much

I want to clarify this again, my argument is NOT about equating the African American civil rights movement with Caste, because they are NOT the same. My point is to show that when any one is suppressed for any reason for a long time there are long standing repercussions and it is unrealistic to just expect them to pull themselves up.

And yes, I do agree that lower casts are not a monolith and there are varying grades of disenfranchisement. However even if we consider the absolute bottom of the barrel SC/ST the absolute number is huge.

 

[LurkerBaba]

Gandhi's movement was not exactly top down. Raja Ram Mohan Loy's reforms would be better classified as top down movements.

One of the reasons why a BSP did not originate in South

I think the reason is slightly different. You mentioned South India not having the Chaturvarna system.

So there is no section of society which can be called Dalits ? In other words,there is no Dalit population, but only Shudras ? (and Brahmins of course)

 

[amitkriit]

^
Analogy with the African-American Civil Rights Movement is going to turn this thread in a different direction.

"Lower Caste" is not a monolithic term. OBCs are politically empowered, SC/STs not so much

Those who have not lived in India cannot understand the complex situation. Energon is just trying to interpret the subject according to the experience of US community in empowering the "Black People". He is correct in saying that it will take lot of time for the people who were condemned to live at the bottom of the social/economic ladder to gain equal status. But I am sure with positive attitude we will make it possible.

Besides Caste System is just one of the many problems, can we discuss holistically what sorts of reforms does the Hindu community need?

 

[LurkerBaba]

Besides Caste System is just one of the many problems, can we discuss holistically what sorts of reforms does the Hindu community need?

Yes, that is the purpose of the thread. Also, I'll delete all posts on the lines of "Oh just look at xyz religon, its has faults too !"

 

[Energon]

Besides Caste System is just one of the many problems, can we discuss holistically what sorts of reforms does the Hindu community need?

Agreed.

Ok let's talk about the need to build institutions.

Judeochristian groups have built some phenomenal state of the art institutions that have benefited the society tremendously. Churches built everything from ivy league universities to primary schools in the remotest regions of the world spreading modern education and spurring scientific development. Every time I look at scientific papers or travel to different American cities I can't count the number of hospitals with names like beth israel or saint ______. There is no question that the West has succeeded due to these types of institutions.

Hinduism and Buddhism too have a rich history of building excellent institutes of education and I think this needs to be revived. The first thing however is to keep the government out of it because involving the GOI pretty much guarantees a paralysis. Numerous wealthy Hindu sects like BAPS and ISKON have opened up malls and other profitable enterprises, which is great because in the real world you can't get anything done without a healthy source of revenue. And I think these organizations have the resources to start opening up a lot of primary education centers that can provide basic education to the people who have no access to it.

Thoughts?

Those who have not lived in India cannot understand the complex situation.

Disclaimer... I do not and nor have I ever lived in India as a citizen. I have spent time in the region as a young kid, hence my love of cricket and all, but I do not claim to know how it is on the ground for people who live there. I do however have a keen interest in Indian affairs and I try and read up on it and see things for myself every time I visit India. In regards to my comments on this thread, on my last trip I decided to venture out in some of the impoverished parts of the hinterland to see how things really are... and needless to say I came away quite traumatized. Nonetheless, it is fair to say that my comments are those of an outsider and hence sound pedantic

 

[parijataka]

Ambedkar whom I've only recently started reading about was no doubt an extremely empowered individual with an outlook to match. Ambedkar was a great leader of the civil rights movement (if we can call it that) and his vision to make it a bottom up movement was truly commendable, but Ambedkar as a person did not represent the common dalit population; to say he was exceptional would be an understatement. This is also why nobody could fill his shoes and his message and movement was soon exploited by political operatives for their own gain.

In terms of political power the lower castes of India actually have more political pull than the blacks simply because they outnumber everyone else. But as I've mentioned elsewhere, the problem is that due to their dilapidated condition they don't know what to do with that political power and the shady crooks from the political class who exploit them do so at the expense of the upper castes thereby furthering the divide among the upper and lower castes.

Either way, based on the data gathered from numerous other models out there, saying that the lower castes are entirely at fault for their inability to rise is overly simplistic and inaccurate.

That sentence is quite correct. Some SC-ST politicians who have risen as powerful community leaders are squandering away their position. I was thinking of BSP supremo Mayawati here. She is a smart and shrewd politician but who has been very corrupt as well. If she had been another Narendra Modi or Nitish Kumar, very successful Chief Ministers, that would have been such a brilliant example for the SCs.