Rasgulla: A Bengali creation claimed by Odiyas

[pmaitra]

Was Orissa out of British India map ? or Orissa gave up to British without a fight ?




Why should Bengal have a official state song ?? There is a national anthem and that is supreme for all states...

Try for once to listen to the song : "Amaar Sonaar Bangla Ami Tomae Bhalo Bashi " ... what better tribute one can give ??

I don't see anything wrong with Orissa having a state song. Every state should have one, and I am also in favour of every state having a state flag. Nationalism devoid of hate is not a bad thing. It actually makes people competitive and encourages progress.

 

[bose]

I don't see anything wrong with Orissa having a state song. Every state should have one, and I am also in favour of every state having a state flag. Nationalism devoid of hate is not a bad thing. It actually makes people competitive and encourages progress.

I agree there is no wrong with a state songs or infact state flags on principle... I was reading the other day a piece of article on 1857 freedom movement... How a certain section of us [name is not important here] helped British to crush the movement and carry out the massacre. India has the dubious history of producing Jai Chand, Jagat Seth and Mir Jaffar's...

I believe that now after 68 years of independence if all state have their own state songs and flag it will lead to separatist tendencies... we already have separatist movement in some states ... We should have decided it at the time of independence ... but then we have so many princely states to be integrated..

I have heard my elder say [ Not sure how much correct it is] even great Subash Chandra Bose also wanted at least 20 years of dictatorship just after independence of India...

 

[Biswaranjan Sahoo]

Dear Madam / sir,
to support rasagola / Kheera Mohan as Orissa dish below are points.
1. Chenna / chees is not only invented by portugees, it has invented by various places in world.
2. In orssa there are two verities of chees 1. kheera Chenna 2. dahi chenna and both are part of oriya local festivals.
3. the Boiling process of Rasgola / Kheera Mohan is very likely from Orsaa as there are so many recipe are done by Boilling process and still oriya people do it on Oriya parba/festivals example: water boiled Mandaa peetha(amny festivals) and paani gaintha(offered during deepabali)
4. No foreign products are offered in jagannath temple like Patoes(bilati Alu, Tamatoes(bilati baigana) and so many.The offering process is too strict in puri that it is unlikely might have introduced by any one from bengal.
5. Most cook from orissa doing job in rich bengoli house.who might spread rasgola in bengal.
6. Most likely this testy Rasgola inveted by Orissa , but due to lack of publishity , powerfull benolis made it on their name.
7. Bengoli have tried to supress Oriya as language,so they might have renamed Kheera mohan / Rasa Golaa as rasgulla.
8. Chhapan Bhoga (56 items of Puri) belongs to lord jagganath. thats why rasgola which is not in 56 items is offered to Maha Laxmi.
9. perishible Rasgola with semolina invented in orissa, then that is improved to keep for more days, Bengoli people made is spongy with out semolina.
10. chenna gaja also another version of rasgola which is most likely from orissa
11. In Kendra para, Chhatia batta, Lord jagannath is offered Rasaa Bali, another version of rasgola.which is very old temple of Orissa.
12. some times powerfull established people put their name or seal on good product, as america was trying to make paitent on turmeric and neem.simillarly Bengolis established this rasgola as their as they were more power full due to British rule.

other supporting truths
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13. simmilarly they more speak about Neta ji subash chandra bose as bengoli, who is an Oriya(bengoli origin not bengoli as he born and brought up in cuttack) , many people do not know.
14. Kalpana chawala might be Indian origin, but she is American as she born and brought up in USA.

 

[Yumdoot]

Nothing beats a Kala Gulabjamun. And Indians do not even have to compete to own it.

 

[Sanjoy]

Whatever be the case, I have my doubts about Rasgulla being invented in 12 century or whatever is being claimed by the Odisha government. They are relying on a myth. The modern day Rasgulla cannot be made without the knowledge of cutting of milk, and the knowledge of cutting of milk came from the Portuguese. So either it was some different condiment that coincidentally had the name Rasgulla but was different from modern day Rasgulla, or it is just an attempt to take credit for some's else's invention.

In my opinion, such claims are no different from saying the Sun Temple of Konark was designed by the Bengalis. Konark Temple is a heritage of Odisha and such a masterpiece does not exist anywhere in Bengal. Similarly, Odishi is a dance that does not exist anywhere in Bengal. Oriyas have a lot of things to be proud of, but Rasgulla is not one of them. I see the actions of the Odisha government as trying to take credit for something that was invented elsewhere. It is wrong to take credit for someone's else creation, no matter which direction it goes to.

It's actually the other war around. It's been Bengalis who have taken credit for other people's invention - Jayadeva being a case to point. But let me address the issue of the origin of chhena (Odia) or chhana (Bengali).

The Portuguese may have showed the Bengalis how to curdle milk with acid, but rasgulla chhena uses whey-curdled milk, at least in Odisha. To claim that there was a universal taboo on curdling milk in pre-colonial India based on a limited sample is akin to saying that there is a taboo on using vegetables in sweet dishes - gajar halwa proves otherwise.

Now here is direct proof that the taboo on curdling milk was not universally prevalent in India. One of the earliest cookbooks in the world - Manasollasa, written by Somesvara III (1129 AD). I quote from a book "The royal Life in Manasollasa" (P. Arundhati, 1994):

In another method, good milk is added to sour juice and the split milk is tied with a white cloth; when the water is strained, ilachi (cardamom) and sugar are added to the condensed mass, mashed and blended into a smooth lump. Small balls in the size of ripen bimba fruits are made out of it, fried and eaten. - Royal Life in Manasollasa, p. 128 LINK: http://booksdownload.co/pdf/royal-life-in-manasollasa-1st-edition.pdf​

 

[pmaitra]

It's actually the other war around. It's been Bengalis who have taken credit for other people's invention - Jayadeva being a case to point. But let me address the issue of the origin of chhena (Odia) or chhana (Bengali).

The Portuguese may have showed the Bengalis how to curdle milk with acid, but rasgulla chhena uses whey-curdled milk, at least in Odisha. To claim that there was a universal taboo on curdling milk in pre-colonial India based on a limited sample is akin to saying that there is a taboo on using vegetables in sweet dishes - gajar halwa proves otherwise.

Now here is direct proof that the taboo on curdling milk was not universally prevalent in India. One of the earliest cookbooks in the world - Manasollasa, written by Somesvara III (1129 AD). I quote from a book "The royal Life in Manasollasa" (P. Arundhati, 1994):

In another method, good milk is added to sour juice and the split milk is tied with a white cloth; when the water is strained, ilachi (cardamom) and sugar are added to the condensed mass, mashed and blended into a smooth lump. Small balls in the size of ripen bimba fruits are made out of it, fried and eaten. - Royal Life in Manasollasa, p. 128 LINK: http://booksdownload.co/pdf/royal-life-in-manasollasa-1st-edition.pdf​

I disagree on various points. Let me point them out.

1. Jayadeva is not the point of argument here.
2. I don't know what you mean by whey curdled milk. Either it is milk or it is whey and curd separated.
3. I said nothing about taboo. I said Indians did not have the knowledge of separating curd (chhana) and whey, and it came from the Portuguese.
4. It is done by using Potassium Benzoate or other types of light acids.
5. Your link refers to preparation of paneer. This knowledge is ancient. Paneer and chhana are similar things, but not the same thing. You cannot make rasgulla with paneer. For that, you need chhana. Chhana and paneer are both by products of curdling, but they are different things. [Wiki Link] I might add, even if you let yogurt stand for some time, whey will be separated from the milk solids. But that milk solid is again different from chhana and also different from paneer.

From your post: "condensed mass, mashed and blended into a smooth lump" - this is not chhana. This is paneer.

Before trying to take credit, one should know what to take credit for.

 

[A chauhan]

I said Indians did not have the knowledge of separating curd (chhana) and whey, and it came from the Portuguese.

Sorry for selective quoting, but when I made tea for the first time the milk got curdled (phat gaya, and I didn't know Portuguese that time :biggrin2, I mean a country where cows and cow milk are traditionally used from vedic period (lord Krishna was fond of butter), it's impossible to assume that the milk never curdled in the period of 2000-3000 years ??!!

I saw Epic channel reporting that Portuguese taught us to curdle Milk, but it looks like a misconception. Though I can say that Indians never used Cheese in the way Italians did (aging).

 

[pmaitra]

Sorry for selective quoting, but when I made tea for the first time the milk got curdled (phat gaya, and I didn't know Portuguese that time :biggrin2, I mean a country where cows and cow milk are traditionally used from vedic period (lord Krishna was fond of butter), it's impossible to assume that the milk never curdled in the period of 2000-3000 years ??!!

I saw Epic channel reporting that Portuguese taught us to curdle Milk, but it looks like a misconception. Though I can say that Indians never used Cheese in the way Italians did (aging).

When you made tea, the milk got curdled, because the milk was most likely stale. Chhana is not made from stale milk. :biggrin2:

I am sure milk curdled in the period of 2000-3000 years. If you look closely, my argument is not about curdling of milk. It is about preparing chhana. As I already said, knowledge of making paneer is ancient.

 

[A chauhan]

When you made tea, the milk got curdled, because the milk was most likely stale. Chhana is not made from stale milk. :biggrin2:

I am sure milk curdled in the period of 2000-3000 years. If you look closely, my argument is not about curdling of milk. It is about preparing chhana. As I already said, knowledge of making paneer is ancient.

:biggrin2: lol it might be true, the milk was probably stale.

 

[Kharavela]

Indians did not have the knowledge of separating curd (chhana) and whey, and it came from the Portuguese

Sir, I do not concur on this because:

1) If Portuguese taught Indians how to make "Chhena", how come villagers who never gone out of their district, learned to prepare "Chhena" ? Some villages, where electricity has not reached till date, know preparation of "Chhena" since long. Specially, Nayagarh & Puri District is famous for their sweets prepared from "Chhena" such as छेनापोड, छेनाझिल्लि, छेनामुडकि, छेनागजा, छेनाकदम्बा etc.

2) When did Portuguese learned to be civilized & started to wear cloths ? Surely not before Indians. Till 16th century, cloth were supplied to Europe from India. My point is, different varieties of milk products such as दही, छेना, खोआ, पनीर, राबिडि are prevalent in this part of India since ages.

3) In Puri district, it is a common practice to eat Chhena with or without Rabidi at evening, specially after rigorous workout at "Akhada". Some people eat "Chhena" while consuming "Bhaang".

4) I talked to one "Chhena" supplier of Nimapara (Tons of Chhena comes to Bhubaneswar from Nimapara on Daily basis). They do not use any acid to prepare Chhena.

 

[jackprince]

Well, being back in Kolkata for last few days and having had countless no. of Rasogolla, despite my wife's withering glares and my own expanding belly, I don't give a damn whoever invented this sweet. Am lovin' it.

 

[Peter]

Sir, I do not concur on this because:

1) If Portuguese taught Indians how to make "Chhena", how come villagers who never gone out of their district, learned to prepare "Chhena" ? Some villages, where electricity has not reached till date, know preparation of "Chhena" since long. Specially, Nayagarh & Puri District is famous for their sweets prepared from "Chhena" such as छेनापोड, छेनाझिल्लि, छेनामुडकि, छेनागजा, छेनाकदम्बा etc.

2) When did Portuguese learned to be civilized & started to wear cloths ?

(They became civilized when they learnt to wear clothes.) :bounce:
Surely not before Indians. Till 16th century, cloth were supplied to Europe from India. My point is, different varieties of milk products such as दही, छेना, खोआ, पनीर, राबिडि are prevalent in this part of India since ages.

3) In Puri district, it is a common practice to eat Chhena with or without Rabidi at evening, specially after rigorous workout at "Akhada". Some people eat "Chhena" while consuming "Bhaang".

4) I talked to one "Chhena" supplier of Nimapara (Tons of Chhena comes to Bhubaneswar from Nimapara on Daily basis). They do not use any acid to prepare Chhena.

One point is that chana(or kata doodh ie spoilt milk) is never given to deities. Then why is it being claimed that it was used to create sweets which was given to Lord Jagannath?

 

[Kharavela]

Well, being back in Kolkata for last few days and having had countless no. of Rasogolla, despite my wife's withering glares and my own expanding belly, I don't give a damn whoever invented this sweet. Am lovin' it.

Teacher ne nahin sikhaya... Share !

 

[Kharavela]

One point is that chana(or kata doodh ie spoilt milk) is never given to deities. Then why is it being claimed that it was used to create sweets which was given to Lord Jagannath?

You didn't get it, mate. Rasagola in the form of Khira Mohan is not part of everyday cuisine offered to Lord Jagannath. Rather it is used at Niladri Bije (returning to the Temple from Ratha Yatra) to cool down Maa Lakshmi. On certain festivals, Khira Mohan is offered to Maa Lakshmi, not to Lord Jagannath.

Again Khira Mohan is prepared by creating small balls from the mixed dough of Chhena with Khuaa, baking them with specially prepared Khiraa for sweetness.

Please understand that, cuisines used at Sree Mandira of Lord Jagannath cannot have any ingredient which is not indigenous to Kalinga / Utkal / Odisha. Hence, Tomato, Potato, Brinjal etc are not used.

 

[pmaitra]

@Peter and @Kharavela,

I think what we have discussed a few pages earlier seems the likely case.

The same word might have different meanings.

After the recent discussion, I just recalled that we have a preparation called dhoka. This is created by curdling of milk. This is closer to chhana and further from paneer.

Khira Mohan, if I am not wrong, is not spongy. Now, if it is created from chhana, then this chhana is not the same thing as the chhana used for rasgulla.

I think the confusion stems from the same word being used to refer to two different things.

@Kharavela, The Portuguese did not teach how to make chhena that you are refering to. The Portuguese taught to make chhana that I am refering to.

I don't know what you mean by potato not being indigenous to Orissa. Potato is a very common food in India. One food that I have only seen in Orissa is gulgula, and potato is a major part of it. Now, you might be right that potato is not offered to Lord Jagannath, but the reason is probably something else.

@A chauhan, I make tea everyday. The milk does not cut itself. Coming back to the cutting of milk, paneer appears to be not unique to India, but extends upto Persia. Curdling of milk is an ancient technique. Curdling of milk can result in various types of solids, and depends upon how the curdling is done.

 

[A chauhan]

@pmaitra I like GulabJamun more that RasGulla, end of debate !

 

[PredictablyMalicious]

@Peter and @Kharavela,

I think what we have discussed a few pages earlier seems the likely case.

The same word might have different meanings.

After the recent discussion, I just recalled that we have a preparation called dhoka. This is created by curdling of milk. This is closer to chhana and further from paneer.

Khira Mohan, if I am not wrong, is not spongy. Now, if it is created from chhana, then this chhana is not the same thing as the chhana used for rasgulla.

I think the confusion stems from the same word being used to refer to two different things.

@Kharavela, The Portuguese did not teach how to make chhena that you are refering to. The Portuguese taught to make chhana that I am refering to.

I don't know what you mean by potato not being indigenous to Orissa. Potato is a very common food in India. One food that I have only seen in Orissa is gulgula, and potato is a major part of it. Now, you might be right that potato is not offered to Lord Jagannath, but the reason is probably something else.

@A chauhan, I make tea everyday. The milk does not cut itself. Coming back to the cutting of milk, paneer appears to be not unique to India, but extends upto Persia. Curdling of milk is an ancient technique. Curdling of milk can result in various types of solids, and depends upon how the curdling is done.

Dhokla is a Gujarati dish I think.

 

[PredictablyMalicious]

Bengalis should be reprimanded for stealing Oriya culture and inventions. Oriyas are a glorious people.

 

[bose]

Bengalis should be reprimanded for stealing Oriya culture and inventions. Oriyas are a glorious people.

Who will do that ??


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[PredictablyMalicious]

Who will do that ??


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I will do it myself. I reprimand @pmaitra for stealing glorious Oriya culture and their inventions, of which Rasgolla is one example.