Rasgulla: A Bengali creation claimed by Odiyas

[angeldude13]

F@ck this sh8t.
BTW eating rasgulla right now

 

[Kharavela]

Yes I did go through the wiki. Now let me quote and highlight the relevant portions

.
The local Apabhraṃśa of the eastern subcontinent, Purbi Apabhraṃśa or Abahatta ("Meaningless Sounds"), eventually evolved into regional dialects, which in turn formed three groups of the Bengali–Assamese languages, the Bihari languages, and theOriya languages. Some argue that the points of divergence occurred much earlier — going back to even 500,[19] but the language was not static: different varieties coexisted and authors often wrote in multiple dialects in this period. For example, Ardhamagadhi is believed to have evolved into Abahatta around the 6th century, which competed with the ancestor of Bengali for some time
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_language

What is the timeline mentioned in wiki for Bengali language ? Claim of some historians doesn't stand the light of proof. Where are Bengali literatures ? Please mention some Bengali literature prior to 1400 AD.
PS: I will mention Odia literatures prior to 1000 AD.

 

[Kharavela]

They also point out that the dish is not even mentioned as one of the chhappan bhog ("56 offerings") in the early records of the Temple.

Chhapan Bhog is the menu offered to the Deities on daily basis. This is different. Rasagola is offered to Maa Laksmi by Lord Jagannath while returning from Rath Yatra, i.e. Niladri Bije.

 

[Peter]

What is the timeline mentioned in wiki for Bengali language ? Claim of some historians doesn't stand the light of proof. Where are Bengali literatures ? Please mention some Bengali literature prior to 1400 AD.
PS: I will mention Odia literatures prior to 1000 AD.

Ok so you want Bengali literature prior to 1400 AD.

Charyapada, is one of the famous pre-1400 Bengali works.(10th-12th century AD)

From Wiki-The original palm-leaf manuscript of the Charyapada, or Caryācaryāviniścaya, consisting of an anthology of 47 padas (verses) along with a Sanskrit commentary, was discovered by Haraprasad Shastri at the Nepal Royal Court Library in 1907. This manuscript was edited by Shastri and published by the Bangiya Sahitya Parishad as a part of his Hajar Bacharer Purano Bangala Bhasay Bauddhagan O Doha (The Buddhist Songs and Couplets in a thousand years old Bengali Language) in 1916 under the name of Charyacharyavinishchayah.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charyapada


Except for charyapada there were other documents which were mostly letters between the kings and their deputy landlords. Also traces of devotional literature was also written in Bengali.

Now for the origin of Bengali words.(This will debunk all your half baked claims.)

Sources of modern literary Bengali words
67% native
25% Sanskrit reborrowings
8% indigenous and foreign loans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_language

 

[Kharavela]

Bose is a Bengali title. Bose was from a Bengali kayastha family. If you claim him to be an Odiya on basis of him being born there then it is just a ridiculous claim.

Dude, your claims regarding Netaji are as hilarious as claiming :
1) Bobby Jindal - Indian &
2) Barak Obama - Kenyan

 

[Kharavela]

Except for charyapada there were other documents which were mostly letters between the kings and their deputy landlords. Also traces of devotional literature was also written in Bengali.

Now for the origin of Bengali words.(This will debunk all your half baked claims.)

Bengali Kings !! You must be joking. In the entire history of "Gouda Desha", it was ruled by only two dynasties, Sen & Pala. Both dynasties drew their legitimacy from blessings of Utkal Gajapati. From where does your Kings & their deputy Landlords came from ??

Just show me that Bengali language or culture is older than Odia language / culture. I will accept your POV.

 

[Kharavela]

Sources of modern literary Bengali words
67% native
25% Sanskrit reborrowings
8% indigenous and foreign loans

Then why don't Bengali people are demanding Classical status to their language, when Odia has got it ??

BTW, what is reborrowing ??

 

[Peter]

Bengali Kings !! You must be joking. In the entire history of "Gouda Desha", it was ruled by only two dynasties, Sen & Pala. Both dynasties drew their legitimacy from blessings of Utkal Gajapati. From where does your Kings & their deputy Landlords came from ??

Just show me that Bengali language or culture is older than Odia language / culture. I will accept your POV.

It is not the absence of knowledge but the pretension of being more learned that destroys an individual.

Bengal had more than two dynasties. Here are some of the dynasties:-

1)Poundra kingdom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pundra_Kingdom)

2)Vanga Kingdom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanga_Kingdom)

3)Gangaridai empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangaridai)

4)Gauda KIngdom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shashanka)

(Shashanka btw conquered your Bhubhaneswar or bhubaneshwa).

5)Pala Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pala_Empire)

6)Chandra Dynasty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandra_dynasty)

7)Sena Dynasty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sena_dynasty)

8)Koch Dynasty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_dynasty)


Also Bengali and Oriya are sister languages. Both of them separated from their parent languages about 1000-1200 years ago. One is not older than the other.They developed from Sanskrit and Pali/Prakrit. I have given the links about this fact in a previous post.


(BTW give me the example of pre-1400 Odia literature. The thng you were boasting about.)

 

[Peter]

Then why don't Bengali people are demanding Classical status to their language, when Odia has got it ??

BTW, what is reborrowing ??

Odiya became a classical language in 2014. This is probably due to the pro BJP govt ruling Odisha. Mamata is not liked by Modiji so presently we wont get any of our demands passed in the Centre. Given time even Bengali would get that status. The classical language status is a relatively new concept. It was formulated by the GOI in 2004. So you should wait and watch. Also Bengali already has the staus of being the official language of Bangladesh and Sierra Leone,something which Odiya cannot boast of. Oh it is also the language in which our national anthem,national song,the national anthems of Sri lanka and Bangladesh were composed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_language

The International Mother Language Day is observed as a result of us Bengali spakers.

From the wiki-International Mother Language Day has been observed since 2000[5] to promote peace and multilingualism. The date corresponds tothe day in 1952 when students from the University of Dhaka and Dhaka Medical College, demonstrating for the recognition of Bangla as one of the two national languages of East Pakistan, were shot dead by police near the Dhaka High Court in the capital of present-day Bangladesh.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Mother_Language_Day



Re-borrowing means using some loanwords or derived forms of a parent language. For eg, Chad in Bengali has come from the Sanskrit Chandra meaning moon.

 

[Peter]

Dude, your claims regarding Netaji are as hilarious as claiming :
1) Bobby Jindal - Indian &
2) Barak Obama - Kenyan

Nope, that is not what I meant but what you misconstrued it as.

Bobby Jindal is an Indian American.
Barack Obama is a Kenyan american.
Similarly Netaji was a Bengali who was born in Orrisa.

 

[OneGrimPilgrim]

@Peter - i would contend the opposite to be true (ie, Mamata bi disliking Modiji), though the ice looks to have somewhat melted after PM's BD trip, when Mamata bi publicly assured that she would work in tandem with the Centre and assist it.

the quible between the sister-cultures aside, what's the situation like in Kolkata/Bengal now? i had read y'day that jihadis were out on streets peacefully performing fire-ceremonies using public-pvt property, with the police calmly presiding over it, regarding the arrest of a mulla who was taking some 42 boys to some place without documents.

 

[pmaitra]

@pmaitra Sir,
Perhaps I could not put forth my submissions correctly. My points are:
1) Bengali language comes into existence at around 12th century & evolved by borrowing from other languages. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_language
2) Whereas, Odia is the sixth Indian language to be designated a Classical Language in India on the basis of having a long literary history and not having borrowed extensively from other languages. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odia_language
3) "Madala Panji" (मादळा पांजि) is a sort of Diary for Puri Jagannath Temple which is continuously recorded since existence of the Temple. Almost all process, procedures, rules of the temple along with the happenings are recorded. It even describes establishment of "Govardhan Math" by "Adi Shankara".
4) In the light of written evidence in "Madala Panji" describing use of Rasagola in "Nilandri Bije" ritual, it is beyond any debate that Rasagola is invented in 1868.

We can never say for sure what the reality is.

The words "ras" and "gol" are so ancient that they could have existed all over India meaning the same thing individually, but different things when conjoined.

I think some type of food was prepared in Puri that involved "ras" and was shaped like "gol," but was it the same thing as contemporary "rasgulla?" That we can never ascertain. I think @jackprince made a comment that I had also read somewhere, that cutting of milk (separating the milk solid and the whey) was introduced into India by the Portuguese, so I don't think the contemporary "rasgulla" could have existed in the 12th century, but then, I am not 100% sure.

BTW, what is the etymological source of "gulgula?" Is it because it is round?

 

[CrYsIs]

Who would have thought we would be fighting over rasgullas :biggrin2:

Nevertheless scorll.in has a very interesting article on the issue

http://scroll.in/article/745871/who...he-rasgulla-bengalis-odiyas-or-the-portuguese

BTW, this is Odisha's favorite sweet

It's called Chenna Poda,will the bengalis claim this too ?

 

[jackprince]

okay, guys, how come this thread deteriorated into Bengali vs. Odiya? I mean it was supposed to be a discussion regarding origin of Rasgulla, and for that etymology is a important point, but superiority/inferiority, classical/non-classical? WTF?

Anybody who has heard Odiya and Bengali will find how close they are to each other. However, even the Odiya has dialects that are different geographically as the closer it is to Bengal, it becomes more influenced with Bengali or vise-versa and the more it comes at AP, it is influenced by Telegu. Whenever I travel, I find that I can actually comprehend Odiya spoken by people from around Bhubaneswar to Kharagpur, however it becomes more and more difficult once it crosses Bhubaneswar and telegu influenced Odiya starts up.

The same happens with Bengali too. I have heard that Chittagong bengali is something no other bengali unless prior exposure can understand.

Therefore, if you are debating the age of languages, I would say debate about the age of standardised from of the language.

 

[Ancient Indian]

Now I know what Bengalis are doing these days instead of fighting Bangldeshi Invaders.

Good job guys.

 

[Sameet Pattnaik]

Bengalis if they had some self respect they would be not muslims at so much level !!

 

[Peter]

@Peter - i would contend the opposite to be true (ie, Mamata bi disliking Modiji), though the ice looks to have somewhat melted after PM's BD trip, when Mamata bi publicly assured that she would work in tandem with the Centre and assist it.

the quible between the sister-cultures aside, what's the situation like in Kolkata/Bengal now? i had read y'day that jihadis were out on streets peacefully performing fire-ceremonies using public-pvt property, with the police calmly presiding over it, regarding the arrest of a mulla who was taking some 42 boys to some place without documents.

Actually I do not know if the city had seen riots in Park Circus area. I do not live in central Kolkata but in South Kolkata. No news channel has reported anything about the alleged incident.

 

[Peter]

Now I know what Bengalis are doing these days instead of fighting Bangldeshi Invaders.

Good job guys.

Bengalis if they had some self respect they would be not muslims at so much level !!

Actually we have enough self respect.

I think some people are wondering what we are busy doing. We Bengalis are busy winning Nobel Prizes and composing the national anthems and songs for the nation.

The Jana Gana Mana was composed by Kobiguru R. Tagore and Vande Mataram was taken from Bankim Chandra`s Anandamath. Both were originally written in Bengali.

As for the topic of religion,one should never take it into consideration while judging an ethnicity. Btw we had the greatest reformer of Hinduism,Shri Chaitanya Mahapravu.

Sadly Chaitanyadev was murdered by a group of dim witted ,jealous and potbellied evil Oriya Puri Pandas.

Now for self respect and other such vague terms that had been thrown into this debate. Well if Oriyas had some self respect they should not be singing the national anthem and national song composed by Bengalis in the Bengal language.

Vande mataram

বন্দে মাতরম্৷
সুজলাং সুফলাং
মলয়জশীতলাম্
শস্যশ্যামলাং
মাতরম্!
বন্দে মাতরম্৷.

শুভ্র-জ্যোৎস্না
পুলকিত-যামিনীম্
ফুল্লকুসুমিত
দ্রুমদলশোভিনীম্,
সুহাসিনীং
সুমধুরভাষিণীম্
সুখদাং বরদাং
মাতরম্৷৷
বন্দে মাতরম্৷

Jana Gana Mana

জনগণমন-অধিনায়ক জয় হে ভারতভাগ্যবিধাতা!
পঞ্জাব সিন্ধু গুজরাট মরাঠা দ্রাবিড় উৎকল বঙ্গ
বিন্ধ্য হিমাচল যমুনা গঙ্গা উচ্ছলজলধিতরঙ্গ
তব শুভ নামে জাগে, তব শুভ আশিষ মাগে,
গাহে তব জয়গাথা।
জনগণমঙ্গলদায়ক জয় হে ভারতভাগ্যবিধাতা!
জয় হে, জয় হে, জয় হে, জয় জয় জয় জয় হে।।

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vande_Mataram
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jana_Gana_Mana

 

[OneGrimPilgrim]

Actually I do not know if the city had seen riots in Park Circus area. I do not live in central Kolkata but in South Kolkata. No news channel has reported anything about the alleged incident.

a while back there was something similar and the local news-channels were barred from reporting about it.

----------------------------------------------

meanwhile, 03rd Aug. 2015 was just another day in the life of the peacefuls of Kolkata:

 

[Simple_Guy]

Regarding claiming something which belongs to Bengal & not Odisha, we do not have much disputes. But when reverse is discussed, following are claimed by Bengalis:
1) Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose
2) Poet Jayadev & his creation Geeta Govinda (गीत गोविन्द by जयदेव)

Member of Parliament Baijayanta Panda has this to say:

I had no idea about Netaji, but Jayadeva I remember reading about:

The controversy regarding the nativity of Jayadeva, according to Late Pandit Nilamani Mishra is hardly one hundred year old. After Orissa had lost its identity towards the beginning of the 19th century, its social and cultural life was vitiated by a number of economic and political factors. Therefore, its cultural materials were wrongly used by the scholars from outside.