Ramayana: History or Myth?

[Virendra]

And they estimate the age of the "bridge" to be 500 years to 125,000 years.
And this doesn't fit with the time period of Ramayana (25,000 to 35,000 years ago)

25,000 YBP is between 5000 and 125,000 YBP I guess ... am I missing something here?
By the way I think Rama may be from around 5,000 or 7,000 B.C.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Neanderthal fossils haven't been found anywhere in South Asia. Just saying.

Trove of Neanderthal fossils found in Greek cave - Science

"Greece lies directly on the most likely route of dispersals of early modern humans and earlier hominins into Europe from Africa via the Near East," paleoanthropologist Katerina Harvati at the University of Tübingen in Germany told LiveScience. "It also lies at the heart of one of the three Mediterranean peninsulae of Europe, which acted as refugia for plant and animal species, including human populations, during glacial times — that is, areas where species and populations were able to survive during the worst climatic deteriorations."

 

[Daredevil]

25,000 YBP is between 5000 and 125,000 YBP I guess ... am I missing something here?
By the way I think Rama may be from around 5,000 or 7,000 B.C.

I assumed the 25K-35K years from the Decklander's post in first page. But I'm not sure of the real time period because of varying figures. May be we can try to establish the Chronological events of Ramayana as to when it happened and when it was written.

 

[Virendra]

Astronomical data recorded by Valmiki has been studied by many.
In the dating of Ramayana there are two major candidates that have come up - around 5,000 B.C. and around 7,000 B.C.

The copper plates of the Pandyan Kings recovered from a place called Sinnamanur in Tamilnadu make a mention of the ten hooded Ravana who was overpowered by a Pandyan King.
While tracing the genealogy of Pandyans, these inscriptions make a specific reference to an earlier Pandyan (name not mentioned) to have made Ravana buy peace
From verse 5 at - South Indian Inscriptions Volume_3 - Pandya Copper Plate Grants Inscriptions from Sinnamanur @ whatisindia.com
At the plates it says in Sanskrit -"Dasaanan sandheepa rakshakaara"
and says in Tamil - "dasavathanan saarbaaka sandhu seithum".

Ancient Pandyan Kings are known to have dwelled during the time of first Tamil Sangam around 5,000 BC when the Kingdom was called Thennan Desam (country of the southeners).
Valmiki's Ramayana refers to the location of Kavatapuram, the capital city of the Pandyan Kings.
While giving instructions to Hanuman and other vanaras on how to proceed to the southern direction, Shugreeva narrated the places that they would encounter en route. In that context he said that after crossing the river Kaveri, Agasthya's abode and then river Tamraparani, they would reach the Kavatam of Pandyas!
( कवाटम् पाण्ड्यानाम् – Valmiki Ramayana, chapter 41 -19)
This Kavatam was the capital of Pandyans during the 2nd sangam period, It was submerged in the 3rd deluge that happened 3500 years ago.

Regards,
Virendra

 

[Shirman]

Any records that date between Harappa civilization till the first settlements of the Aryans aka the Aryan invasion can't still be accepted by ASI or historians, i mean they ignore and we as kids in history class back in our schools don't bother to reason........hence it is called as black period.....

For instance in History books its written that first metal of Gold was brought to India via Romans around 10 Bc/bce via the silk route we all know that Romans traded/paid spices and silk in gold and potteries.......but i think certain vedas of Aryan era also mention about gold heck India was a gold vault even during Alexander III of Macedon era and even during Buddha era as it is timely mentioned both in his puranas and in Jataka tales........

So its difficult to say about Ramayana but as a thumb rule it always mentioned that it was written after Aryan settlement in India.......
In the Ramayana, the term Arya can also apply to Raksasas or to Ravana. In several instances, the Vanaras and Raksasas called themselves Arya. The vanara's king Sugriva is called an Arya (Ram: 505102712) and he also speaks of his brother Vali as an Arya (Ram: 402402434). In another instance in the Ramayana, Ravana regards himself and his ministers as Aryas (Ram: A logical explanation is that, Ravana and his ministers belonged to the highest varna (Ravana being a Brahmin), and Brahmins were generally considered 'noble' of deed and hence called Arya (noble). Thus, while Ravana was considered Arya (and regarded himself as such), he was not really an Arya because he was not noble of deeds. So, he is widely considered by Hindus as Anarya (non-Arya).
The Ramayana describes Rama as: arya sarva samascaiva sadaiva priyadarsanah, meaning "Arya, who worked for the equality of all and was dear to everyone."

the most confusing part is compare the era of the Aryan settlements and the original date of sage Valmiki. I mean the story's original version in Sanskrit is known as Valmiki Ramayana, dating to approximately the 5th to 4th century B.C. and the Aryan settlements dates back to 700 BC during aryavarta/ Iron age period ;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Āryāvarta

 

[Yusuf]

What an eventful posting day I must say. Just back and see all this. A forum is for discussion. It has to be academic. People analyze, fact find. It's no way hurting anyone and if anyone makes such posts it will be dealt with.

As far as I know, the case of Babri Masjid, the courts did direct to find out the veracity of the existence of Ram Mandir.

The govt in an affidavit on the Ram Setu, called the existence of Ram a Myth. Someone please show them the constitution for hurting religious beliefs. That you cannot because the position is academic means, it must be allowed to be talked about by the court which is the interpreter of the constitution

 

[Decklander]

Aryavarta finds mention much before that in the times of Lord Parshuram also. Who belonged to Satya Yuga. Much before Lord Ram.

 

[nrj]

As far as I know, the case of Babri Masjid, the courts did direct to find out the veracity of the existence of Ram Mandir.

And the matter has gone to further court.

Judgement did not confirm Rama but made him party to dispute without proving existence. So there is going to be another round of chaos soon

 

[Yusuf]

And the matter has gone to further court.

Judgement did not confirm Rama but made him party to dispute without proving existence. So there is going to be another round of chaos soon

So if He is made party to the case means the court in its wisdom upholds the existence of Ram?

 

[nrj]

So if He is made party to the case means the court in its wisdom upholds the existence of Ram?

It is very complicated. Court is balancing on Indian law and medieval land laws. I will not say court has upheld existence. It is can of worms.

 

[LurkerBaba]

What an eventful posting day I must say. Just back and see all this. A forum is for discussion. It has to be academic. People analyze, fact find. It's no way hurting anyone and if anyone makes such posts it will be dealt with.

As far as I know, the case of Babri Masjid, the courts did direct to find out the veracity of the existence of Ram Mandir.

The govt in an affidavit on the Ram Setu, called the existence of Ram a Myth. Someone please show them the constitution for hurting religious beliefs. That you cannot because the position is academic means, it must be allowed to be talked about by the court which is the interpreter of the constitution

So if He is made party to the case means the court in its wisdom upholds the existence of Ram?

The verdict is a bit more nuanced. From one of the judges:

"The disputed site is the birth place of Lord Ram. Place of birth is a juristic person and is a deity. It is personified as the spirit of divine worshipped as birth place of Lord Rama as a child."

i.e The place of birth is being treated as a deity and not Rama. As an analogy, when you see little Hanuman temples made out of trees, it doesn't mean that Hanuman as an historical figure was actually present, but that tree is in some way a personification (to put it crudely) of Hanuman who himself could be a metaphor for strength etc.

It's a bit hard to get since the concept is different from Abrahamic religions. Some posters who are hurt by this thread are making the same mistake and equating Rama with Jesus, Mohammed.

 

[Singh]

If tretayuga's peak was around 4900Bc then krishna existed around 3100-700bc (1900bc)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

[Virendra]

If tretayuga's peak was around 4900Bc then krishna existed around 3100-700bc (1900bc)

Kali Yuga begins soon after Krishna, meaning Krishna and Mahabharata are around the end of Dwapara Yuga.
So he is more towards the 3000-3100 B.C. area.
There are theories claiming 5,000 B.C. dating; but I think that is more probable for Raja Rama, not Krishna or Mahabharata.

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

The MODS have to understand that I am not here to hurt anyone. Arnabmit asked me were in the constitution is it written that you will be punished and so I posted the IPC Article 343. He started it and so I posted it. People here see me as a foe and even people whom I thought to be my friends are indirectly pointing me out. I don't care for anyone, if they consider me as a friend I am a friend and if they consider me to be their foe, I still consider them as my friend. For me everyone are the same. I don't want to fight with anyone. But i don't like anyone hurting my faith.

 

[tramp]

Astronomical data recorded by Valmiki has been studied by many.
In the dating of Ramayana there are two major candidates that have come up - around 5,000 B.C. and around 7,000 B.C.

The copper plates of the Pandyan Kings recovered from a place called Sinnamanur in Tamilnadu make a mention of the ten hooded Ravana who was overpowered by a Pandyan King.
While tracing the genealogy of Pandyans, these inscriptions make a specific reference to an earlier Pandyan (name not mentioned) to have made Ravana buy peace
From verse 5 at - South Indian Inscriptions Volume_3 - Pandya Copper Plate Grants Inscriptions from Sinnamanur @ whatisindia.com
At the plates it says in Sanskrit -"Dasaanan sandheepa rakshakaara"
and says in Tamil - "dasavathanan saarbaaka sandhu seithum".

Ancient Pandyan Kings are known to have dwelled during the time of first Tamil Sangam around 5,000 BC when the Kingdom was called Thennan Desam (country of the southeners).
Valmiki's Ramayana refers to the location of Kavatapuram, the capital city of the Pandyan Kings.
While giving instructions to Hanuman and other vanaras on how to proceed to the southern direction, Shugreeva narrated the places that they would encounter en route. In that context he said that after crossing the river Kaveri, Agasthya's abode and then river Tamraparani, they would reach the Kavatam of Pandyas!
( कवाटम् पाण्ड्यानाम् – Valmiki Ramayana, chapter 41 -19)
This Kavatam was the capital of Pandyans during the 2nd sangam period, It was submerged in the 3rd deluge that happened 3500 years ago.

Regards,
Virendra

The problem with Ramayan is that it must have been a ballad sung in the folk tradition and carried down several generations before it took the form of written text, whoever wrote it down in the first instance. Valmiki is identified in Ramayan as a contemporary of Ram who took care of Sita when she was abandoned in the forest and the ballad of Ramayan was first taught to Sita's sons Luv and Kush. Obviously, that ballad could not have been as exhaustive as the Ramayan that we know of now with so many hundreds of stanzas.
Now the problem with any narrative passing through generations is that place names could change, and even places that are more familiar for an audience could get introduced when the story come out of the mouth of imaginative narrators. For eg... in the Indonesian Ramayana tradition, Ayodhya and Lanka and all the narrative is of events take place in that part of Asia.

 

[tramp]

So if He is made party to the case means the court in its wisdom upholds the existence of Ram?

Court may treat Ram as a legal person, not necessarily and embodied entity.

 

[Virendra]

The problem with Ramayan is that it must have been a ballad sung in the folk tradition and carried down several generations before it took the form of written text, whoever wrote it down in the first instance. Valmiki is identified in Ramayan as a contemporary of Ram who took care of Sita when she was abandoned in the forest and the ballad of Ramayan was first taught to Sita's sons Luv and Kush. Obviously, that ballad could not have been as exhaustive as the Ramayan that we know of now with so many hundreds of stanzas.
Now the problem with any narrative passing through generations is that place names could change, and even places that are more familiar for an audience could get introduced when the story come out of the mouth of imaginative narrators. For eg... in the Indonesian Ramayana tradition, Ayodhya and Lanka and all the narrative is of events take place in that part of Asia.

That would be a problem with all ancient histories then. Last I heard RV was considered the oldest book.
Pandyan inscriptions can't be talking false.
When ancient vedic tribes went out from India to Iran, they took the memory of Sarasvati and called an Iranian river as 'Harahvaiti'.
Was there a Pandyan Kingdom or place name resembling 'Kavatapuram' in S E Asia?

 

[tramp]

The MODS have to understand that I am not here to hurt anyone. Arnabmit asked me were in the constitution is it written that you will be punished and so I posted the IPC Article 343. He started it and so I posted it. People here see me as a foe and even people whom I thought to be my friends are indirectly pointing me out. I don't care for anyone, if they consider me as a friend I am a friend and if they consider me to be their foe, I still consider them as my friend. For me everyone are the same. I don't want to fight with anyone. But i don't like anyone hurting my faith.

No hard feelings, bro. It is just that we all posted stuff that may have hurt somebody or the other. But what is important is to keep the balance and respect the other posters. And forgiveness is the king of virtues. I am sorry if I have hurt anybody's faith. But when I express my opinion it is only an expression of my own belief and not a reflection on anybody else's faith. The key to a vibrant community is its ability to vigorously discuss any matter, but remain cordial. Cheers.

 

[arnabmit]

My dear friend, no one insulted your faith, certainly not me. I really do not think a paltry discussion on Indian History would dent or your devotion. Devotion and faith comes from within and cannot be influenced by external elements.

Ram is supposed to have said that only justice is paramount even if that means violating or revising Ram's own rules and judgement for justice for the day. How do you justify Ram's own liberalism and the idea to "question everything" by stopping a debate on ramayana?

And I would repeat again, Constitution does not prevent anyone from discussing religion.

The MODS have to understand that I am not here to hurt anyone. Arnabmit asked me were in the constitution is it written that you will be punished and so I posted the IPC Article 343. He started it and so I posted it. People here see me as a foe and even people whom I thought to be my friends are indirectly pointing me out. I don't care for anyone, if they consider me as a friend I am a friend and if they consider me to be their foe, I still consider them as my friend. For me everyone are the same. I don't want to fight with anyone. But i don't like anyone hurting my faith.

 

[tramp]

That would be a problem with all ancient histories then. Last I heard RV was considered the oldest book.
Pandyan inscriptions can't be talking false.
When ancient vedic tribes went out from India to Iran, they took the memory of Sarasvati and called an Iranian river as 'Harahvaiti'.
Was there a Pandyan Kingdom or place name resembling 'Kavatapuram' in S E Asia?

Talking of place names, we cannot rule out migrating populations giving the name of a place they came from to a new place they reach. In modern history there are so many places in the New World... bearing names of places in England.