Rafale no match for China's MMRCA

[utubekhiladi]

He11, I have been reading comments all day on British forums. It has been nothing but an India bash fest all day. Anger over giving aid for nothing. Racist poor unsanitary commentary. Sick jokes about toilettes. Many think it was the Top Gear insult that cost the deal. On and on about poverty BS. Really they are just a bunch of sore losers. Their nation's industrial base is falling out from under them and there is nothing they can do.

please provide source we also have rights to laugh

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Ya which forum is saying that? Armand2REP please post the links.

 

[satish007]

Lo Maharaj Gal kar lo!

Kiya baat hai!

Zinda marja tun!

daffah hojah, stop posting this stuff, it spent me half hour to fight back.

 

[Nagraj]

Dude it's bad . i went through daily mail readers comments . loved it .
any more forums u say???

He11, I have been reading comments all day on British forums. It has been nothing but an India bash fest all day. Anger over giving aid for nothing. Racist poor unsanitary commentary. Sick jokes about toilettes. Many think it was the Top Gear insult that cost the deal. On and on about poverty BS. Really they are just a bunch of sore losers. Their nation's industrial base is falling out from under them and there is nothing they can do.

 

[SPIEZ]

This thread is about how the Rafale deal would change the strategic context in the subcontinent specially between China and India

India inked the world's single largest defence deal by closing the 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract. As these fourth generation fighter jets join the Indian Air Force fleet, China will prepare to launch its fifth generation stealth fighter Chengdu J-20. China is racing ahead towards the planned induction of its indigenous stealth fighter in 2017. The Chengdu J-20, which made its debut in January last year, has already flown two prototypes, within a span of four months. In India's case, however, the Rafale, only fourth generation — are still undergoing price negotiations. The commercial bids for the US $15 billion deal were opened on 4 November.

French Dassault Aviation's twin-engine Rafale fighter is operational only in the French Navy and Air Force, and recently lost out the US $10 billion deal it had hoped to sign with the United Arab Emirates.

Highly priced, approximately around $80 million a piece, neither Typhoon nor Rafale has a proven radar (the tender requirement is for an AESA [active electronically scanned array]). This came to light during laboratory trials. The manufacturers said that the radar would be integrated once the deal was finalised.

It would take almost four years for the first aircraft to arrive after the deal is inked. So by the time India gets its fourth generation aircraft in 2016, the Chinese will be ready to induct their fifth generation aircraft.

Taking the lead in almost all its indigenous equipment trials, China seems to be well ahead of schedule in its weapons platforms. Their aircraft carrier Varyag entered sea trials in July 2011. The fifth generation stealth fighter J-20's debut this year helped China enter the elite club of fifth generation fighter jet owners. The other members of the club are the United States and Russia. While Russia took a year to make the second flight of its fifth generation stealth fighter PAK-FA, or T-50, with the first flight in January 2010, and the second in 2011, China has taken a lead in its stealth fighter trials.

Having advanced stealth features and the capability of super cruising, the J-20's initial flights have given rise to speculation that the stealth fighter may already be being developed further. Western experts have called the stealth shaping of the J-20 better than the Russian PAK-FA (T-50) and the American F-35 fifth generation fighters. The J-20 will also have an AESA radar, electro-optical sensors, glass cockpit, fly-by-wire systems and bays for weapons of all ranges.

On record, Air Force officers back the Government of India's choice. Former Air Chief F.H. Major told The Sunday Guardian, "The Chinese may be aiming at a fifth generation aircraft, but India, too, has entered into a similar venture with Russia. Since J-20 is not yet inducted, we don't know what capability it will have, whereas the shortlisted MMRCA fighters, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale are already flying in some countries, so we know their capabilities. Except stealth, which is an exclusive fifth generation feature, most four plus and fifth generation fighters have common features, like EW systems, weaponry and super cruise."

Former Western Air Command Chief, retired Air Marshal A.K. Singh said, "Technologically there may not be much of a difference, except stealth. Arms and ammunition put onboard make a difference, which is not known for any of these aircraft. As far as inter-operability, manoeuvrability and sensors go, I don't think there is much of a difference."

Former Air Chief S. Krishnaswamy said, "The AESA radar on both Typhoon and Rafale may have been demonstrated in a laboratory, but by the time they are inducted, these radars will be a part of the fighters as that's the tender requirement. But other avionics and sensors, like SAR, FLIR, IR will be better on the Indian planes, since we have access to western technology, which the Chinese do not have. How much can they research-develop and reverse-engineer?"

About the IAF's FGFA (fifth generation fighter aircraft), former Air Chief P.V. Naik had said that the IAF's requirement was of a twin-seater, with higher level of avionics, swing role, super cruise capability and long range weapons. In December 2010, India and Russia signed a preliminary design contract to jointly develop a FGFA, on the lines of the twin-engine T-50, also called PAK-FA, Perspective Future Aviation Komplex for Frontline Aviation. The fear is that this project will be subject to the huge delays that have dogged joint ventures with Russia

The US Air Force's fifth generation stealth fighter F-22 Raptor is already operational. Its F-35 joint strike fighter is under production and in its trial stage, with US as the lead country and nine others in the consortium.

edited from Typhoon, Rafale no match for China's MMRCA

MOve this to the jokes thread !!!

 

[Drsomnath999]

Rafale is more than a match for J-20 which has...

No Super Cruise
PESA Radar
Turns like a BRIC
RCS greater than an F-16
No HS data links
Poor weapon selection

There is nothing of J-20 that is 5th generation except propaganda.

Mate u missed the most important thing which rafale has but j20 doesnt have ie .5th gen( EW )Spectra suite which has both offensive & defensive capabilties similar to F22 raptor's ALR 94 system which can passively detect J20 from greater than 150 km away when J 20 turns on it's AESA LPI radar to detect Rafale & rafale can also cue it's Meteor missile with the help of SPECZTRA without turning on it's own AESA radar .

 

[Armand2REP]

Dude it's bad . i went through daily mail readers comments . loved it .
any more forums u say???

The Telegraph comments are much the same.

 

[ice berg]

Mate u missed the most important thing which rafale has but j20 doesnt have ie .5th gen( EW )Spectra suite which has both offensive & defensive capabilties similar to F22 raptor's ALR 94 system which can passively detect J20 from greater than 150 km away when J 20 turns on it's AESA LPI radar to detect Rafale & rafale can also cue it's Meteor missile with the help of SPECZTRA without turning on it's own AESA radar .

Lmao, J-20 isnt even operational. 150 Km? You, sir, is a troll.

 

[Armand2REP]

Are you guys basing your assessments on actual data or wishful thinking? Dont get me wrong, the rafale is an omnirole masterpiece, but underestimating a rival is the quickest way to downfall.

It is pretty clear the J-20 doesn't have the makings of a 5th gen fighter. 2 AL-31 class engines are not enough military thrust to push the J-20 to Super Cruise... Sweetman already pointed that out. China has no AESA radar to put in it and the mock-up cockpit had a clear representation of China's cloned Zhuk PESA. I personally posted the video of it taking 28s to make a 360 turn and over a kilometre to do it in. 4th gens do it in under 20 and half the distance. If the JF-17 is any measure of China's use of composites, it is very low... 8%. China also has no experience with RAM coating so it is going to be rudimentary to start with. This is the flight model so it probably doesn't even have one yet. The large size and jutting surface area of the J-20 makes any RCS reduction less effective, the canards are huge and they move which places it more in the area of an F-16 than an F-35. It is well known fact PLAAF doesn't use an ODL. J-10 is still flying old missiles and dumb bombs despite all the fantasy weapons China advertises. Nothing is becoming operational... just dreams.

PS. Why should the PLAAF fear a plane that not only got owned by F18's, but Greek F16's as well? I'm sure they're shaking...

Rafale has owned everything it ever faced. It was the M2000 that shot down Turkish F-16.

One more thing, the last time the Rafale faced a fifth gen jet, it not only got owned at BVR, but the F22 actually saddled up for gun kills, so you really shouldn't be claiming its superiority over the Annihilator 20

I hardly call 5 draws and one loss "got owned." It never went BVR with the F-22. The Joke 20 doesn't hold a candle.

 

[J20!]

Mate u missed the most important thing which rafale has but j20 doesnt have ie .5th gen( EW )Spectra suite which has both offensive & defensive capabilties similar to F22 raptor's ALR 94 system which can passively detect J20 from greater than 150 km away when J 20 turns on it's AESA LPI radar to detect Rafale & rafale can also cue it's Meteor missile with the help of SPECZTRA without turning on it's own AESA radar .

If spectra couldn't defend the rafale against Greek F16's, how is it going to fair against an actual 5th gen jet? And again, the F22 scored multiple gun kills against the rafale, 150 km? Phuleeeeeez!

 

[J20!]

It is pretty clear the J-20 doesn't have the makings of a 5th gen fighter. 2 AL-31 class engines are not enough military thrust to push the J-20 to Super Cruise... Sweetman already pointed that out. China has no AESA radar to put in it and the mock-up cockpit had a clear representation of China's cloned Zhuk PESA. I personally posted the video of it taking 28s to make a 360 turn and over a kilometre to do it in. 4th gens do it in under 20 and half the distance. If the JF-17 is any measure of China's use of composites, it is very low... 8%. China also has no experience with RAM coating so it is going to be rudimentary to start with. This is the flight model so it probably doesn't even have one yet. The large size and jutting surface area of the J-20 makes any RCS reduction less effective, the canards are huge and they move which places it more in the area of an F-16 than an F-35. It is well known fact PLAAF doesn't use an ODL. J-10 is still flying old missiles and dumb bombs despite all the fantasy weapons China advertises. Nothing is becoming operational... just dreams.

Gasp! Armand putting down Chinese tech. I'm shocked!


1.2001 uses AL31's 2002 uses WS10G's so its quite obvious these are stand in engines for flight testing.


2. Second, Both 14th insistute and the National Radar/Electrionics Insititue (NREI) have produced prototype AESA radars for J-20, both prototype radars are X-band AESA radar and contain 2000+ T/R modules, there is a open competition there and 14th insitute won the competition easily (14th insistute is considerably larger and finanically stronger than NREI), thus their AESA has been selected as the radar for this fighter roughly 2 years ago. And I'm sorry, but I've never heard of the J20 using a Russian PESA, a link would be nice instead of your usual ramblings.


3. Last time I checked, both Sweetman and Carlo Kopp agree that the J20's stealth shaping is superior to both the F35 AND the PAK FA. The JF17 block Iis a low cost export fighter the PLAAF does not use, why would u use that as a bases for your analysis on Chinese composites? Why noot maybe the J15, or the J10B?

4. The PLAAF? Has no precision guided bombs? Stop making a fool of your self and visit this airpoweraustralia article on Chinese guided bombs: PLA Guided Bombs

1. So the F18's and GREEK F16's and the F22 dont count? Maybe in your mind, who knows?

1.Actaully it was 4 draws and two gun kills in WVR were both were disallowed use of their radars and a BVR engagement in which the Rafale's lost dismally. I mean what do you expect? Lose to f18's and f16's and hope to win versus the best air-to-air combat fighter around? Armand stop being spiteful, you know very well that by virtue of being a 5th gen fighter, the J20 is in a different league to the Rafale, FACT, throwing childish tantrums wont change that.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

If spectra couldn't defend the rafale against Greek F16's, how is it going to fair against an actual 5th gen jet? And again, the F22 scored multiple gun kills against the rafale, 150 km? Phuleeeeeez!

Who talking of 5th gen here? Haven't you heard we are in partnership with Russia for Pak-Fa? Not to mention the AMCA which is also in the design phase.

The J-20 is hardly proven to be a fighter, you bringing it here for discussion is a joke. The Rafale will take down any fighter in the current fleet of PLAAF and you cant even deny it.

 

[J20!]

Who talking of 5th gen here? Haven't you heard we are in partnership with Russia for Pak-Fa? Not to mention the AMCA which is also in the design phase.

The J-20 is hardly proven to be a fighter, you bringing it here for discussion is a joke. The Rafale will take down any fighter in the current fleet of PLAAF and you cant even deny it.

Yeah, whatever you say, let Armand finnish what he started.

 

[Armand2REP]

1.2001 uses AL31's 2002 uses WS10G's so its quite obvious these are stand in engines for flight testing.

Here is where China stands on engines... WS-10 rated unreliable due to oil leaks, blade cracking and under performing thrust. If you can't even fix a clone of a late 70s engine, what makes you think you are anywhere near 5th gen territory?

2. Second, Both 14th insistute and the National Radar/Electrionics Insititue (NREI) have produced prototype AESA radars for J-20, both prototype radars are X-band AESA radar and contain 2000+ T/R modules, there is a open competition there and 14th insitute won the competition easily (14th insistute is considerably larger and finanically stronger than NREI), thus their AESA has been selected as the radar for this fighter roughly 2 years ago. And I'm sorry, but I've never heard of the J20 using a Russian PESA, a link would be nice instead of your usual ramblings.

Clearly a PESA radar...


The so called AESAs you keep talking about have huge interrogator antennas sticking out of them, not AESA.

This is what an AESA radar looks like...

3.The JF17 block Iis a low cost export fighter the PLAAF does not use, why would u use that as a bases for your analysis on Chinese composites? Why noot maybe the J15, or the J10B?

Because it is the only figure of a presently produced Chinese fighter on record. It points to the fact China does not widely use composites in its construction. Even Comac is using German composite manufacturers to make the C919 lighter which clearly points to a lack of technology in this department. Guaranteed the J-15 uses the same materials as the J-11 aka Su-27SK reproduction... which is hardly any like the JF-17.

 

[Armand2REP]

4. The PLAAF? Has no precision guided bombs? Stop making a fool of your self and visit this airpoweraustralia article on Chinese guided bombs: PLA Guided Bombs

Nice mock-ups... show us a working bomb.

 

[Armand2REP]

. So the F18's and GREEK F16's and the F22 dont count? Maybe in your mind, who knows?

Rafale was never defeated by F18 and F-16s... on the contrary Rafale pwned them.


It was almost a draw on the F-22.

 

[p2prada]

The so called AESAs you keep talking about have huge interrogator antennas sticking out of them, not AESA.

This looks like the AESA to me.

 

[Armand2REP]

This looks like the AESA to me.

I imagine this looks like an AESA to you?

 

[Godless-Kafir]

This looks like the AESA to me.

The angle of the radar does suggest it is AESA but even then how do we know its functional? The WS-10 engine took decades to get inducted, i am sure the same way this is only a show peace it is not functional.

 

[Armand2REP]

Maybe this sheds some light...

Looks like an AESA with interrogator antennas... but not. It is the first fighter PESA in the world.