Putin has Defended the Nazi-Soviet Pact

[Peter]

Nobel prize for Gorbi was deserved. He was the key person for the liberation of former Warsaw pact countries in Eastern Europe. Late 80´s leaders of those countries were hard core old guard communists. Without approval from Gorbi, the independence movements would have never been successful. Of course he paid high prize two years later, when he was ousted and USSR collapsed. Gorbi is the man, man!

I am saying Gorbi was a traitor. How can one`s ego and fame come before his country`s integrity. Is the Nobel prize greater than your country.

One of our army generals had noted that how some of our politicians had wanted to give away Siachen for "peace" and get awarded a Nobel prize. I can never support those thugs.


http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...tarisation-indian-army-pakistan/1/187356.html
Political revelations: Manmohan's defence minister 'scuttled Siachen initiative' – The Express Tribune

Sources in the Government say the Prime Minister has endorsed the Siachen talks on demilitarisation. For him, they say, the world's highest battlefield-and a snow-capped symbol of Indian Army's enduring sacrifice-comes without the baggage of Jammu and Kashmir and forward movement (read demilitarisation) would mean creating the right atmosphere for talks derailed by the 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks. Demilitarisation is his CBM (confidence building measure) offer to Pakistan. Cynics suggest that he, too, has become a victim of the Nobel Peace Prize syndrome, trapped by the desire of temporary personal applause at the cost of national interests. It is his ticket to history.

Fortunately he and his nefarious ploy never saw the light of the day.

What are the guarantees that Pakistan will not occupy the heights vacated by India?
General V.P. Malik, Former Chief of Army Staff

Nobel prize is certainly the world`s greatest and most prestigious prize but all Nobel prize winners are not men of great stature or integrity. Traitors of any kind,even Nobel prize winners, should not be given respect. Now comes the question or rather my theory that Gorbi was a traitor for the USSR and a hero for the Ukrainians. He was a man with Ukrainian roots and certainly he would have loved to see an independent Ukraine. So he broke up the USSR. I think it's too hard to judge him. You can call him a traitor or the greatest patriot ever. After all an independent Ukraine meant he could no longer remain the supremo of USSR

P.S. I like that USSR broke up.

 

[Peter]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Gorbachev

 

[Razor]

The Western powers were doing everything they can to prevent war by appeasing Hitler (they gave him the smaller countries without much grumbling), that Hitler ass-licking defeatest Chamberlain even allowed himself to be fooled by Hitler just so he can have his peace in Europe dream.

Exactly. West gave away some territory to "appease" Hitler (they may have had other motives too.)
Similarly USSR decided to appease Hitler too.
What USSR did is just as right or wrong as what West did.

I don't think the West wanted Germany to invade Russia. The West was still in dire financial condition in 1939 and its population was still trying to forget the carnage and devastation of WW1 and was certainly had no appetite for a new European war.

It was true that the West had no love for the USSR at the time (well until the dissolution of the USSR). But the West was in no mood for a war even between Germany and Russia since it would surely drag them into it.

There's no dispute about Hitler's dislike and ideological differences with the Soviets. But if the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is any indication it appears that he dislikes the West more than the USSR since he is more willing to enter into a pact with the latter against the West (Poland was part of the Western Alliance at the time).

These are at best speculations.

 

[jouni]

Hitlers attack was a preemptive attack.

Soviet offensive plans controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Razor]

I am saying Gorbi was a traitor. How can one`s ego and fame come before his country`s integrity. Is the Nobel prize greater than your country.

The Nobel Peace prize is a political tool.

The guy with the mark didn't deserve shit and is a traitor.

I don't know if he was a Western mole (as you seem to suggest) but Gorbachev was to an extent important enough to the CIA.

The CIA dug a tunnel under the Kremlin ( @Pmaitra : Another instance of how inefficient the much hyped KGB was; the CIA was digging tunnels right under the Kremlin's arse) and installed a hi-tech bugging system to eavesdrop on the Soviet Union's most senior figures, according to the former US intelligence officer who executed the plan.

The device was put in by a US agent who had to wear a protective suit and was guided by satellite and sonar images of Moscow's underground. The bugging formed part of audacious operations to rescue a key defector, a KGB officer with responsibility for eavesdropping, and to alert Boris Yeltsin to the attempted coup against Mikhail Gorbachev.

This wasn't part of the Cold War - the intrusion into the seat of Soviet power occurred in 1989, when Washington and Moscow were trying to smooth relations.

Mendes claims the eavesdropping device was instrumental in thwarting the coup in August 1991, when Gorbachev was detained at his dacha by the military. President George Bush Senior and Prime Minister John Major called Yeltsin to urge him to stand up to the army.

Source: CIA Kremlin bug 'saved Gorbachev' | World news | The Guardian

 

[pmaitra]

The Nobel Peace prize is a political tool.

The Nobel "Peace" Prize, today, is given to people who, and whose policies, bring about slaughter, mass murder, chaos, or general misery to people.

Coming from a bomb maker (dynamite), it isn't really an oxymoron, as much as the allegory "peace" is.

 

[Peter]

The Nobel Peace prize is a political tool.

The guy with the mark didn't deserve shit and is a traitor.

I don't know if he was a Western mole (as you seem to suggest) but Gorbachev was to an extent important enough to the CIA.





Source: CIA Kremlin bug 'saved Gorbachev' | World news | The Guardian

Nice article.

Gorbachev had Ukrainian parents and "greatly resented the Holodomor." It seems he got his vengeance by breaking up USSR.

From Wikipedia

Gorbachev was born on 2 March 1931 in Stavropol, Russian SFSR, Soviet Union, into a mixed Russian-Ukrainian family[4] of migrants from Voronezh and Chernigov Governorates. As a child, Gorbachev experienced the Soviet famine of 1932–1933. He recalled in a memoir that "In that terrible year [in 1933] nearly half the population of my native village, Privolnoye, starved to death, including two sisters and one brother of my father."[4] Both of his grandfathers were arrested on false charges in the 1930s; his paternal grandfather Andrey Moiseyevich Gorbachev (Андрей Моисеевич Горбачев) was sent to exile in Siberia.

Mikhail Gorbachev - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


He had plenty of reasons to hate the USSR. I mean just look at this above things. Also he was initially rejected the top position in USSR. Sadly/Happily the guy who was made his replacement died.

Andropov died in 1984, and indicated that he wanted Gorbachev to succeed him as General Secretary. Instead, the aged Konstantin Chernenko took power, even though he himself was terminally ill.[13] After Chernenko's death the following year, it became clear to the party hierarchy that younger leadership was needed.[14] Gorbachev was elected General Secretary by the Politburo on 11 March 1985, only three hours after Chernenko's death.

@jouni Look at the above.

Also our GOI awarded him Indira Gandhi Prize in 1987. Our govt always get trolled.

In 1987, Gorbachev was awarded the Indira Gandhi Prize from Government of India

 

[Peter]

The Nobel "Peace" Prize, today, is given to people who, and whose policies, bring about slaughter, mass murder, chaos, or general misery to people.

Coming from a bomb maker (dynamite), it isn't really an oxymoron, as much as the allegory "peace" is.

I agree with the Peace Prize. As for the other ones they are genuine.

 

[jouni]

Nice article.

Gorbachev had Ukrainian parents and "greatly resented the Holodomor." It seems he got his vengeance by breaking up USSR.

From Wikipedia


Mikhail Gorbachev - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


He had plenty of reasons to hate the USSR. I mean just look at this above things. Also he was initially rejected the top position in USSR. Sadly/Happily the guy who was made his replacement died.


@jouni Look at the above.

Also our GOI awarded him Indira Gandhi Prize in 1987. Our govt always get trolled.

If Gorbachev did it to revenge 30's famine and all the other crimes he deserves 100 Nobel prizes.

 

[Dovah]

Let us not forget the Britishers and their years of "Appeasement".

 

[Peter]

If Gorbachev did it to revenge 30's famine and all the other crimes he deserves 100 Nobel prizes.

It depends on your perspective. A patriotic ukrainian would agree to you but a Russian would not. Also I do condemn the Holodomor. Only point is why the politburo selected Gorbi despite knowing his background????



Anyway Gorbi seems to hate Putin.(Putin banned his party) It seems Gorbi and I share the same dislikes.

Coming to the topic,
the Stalin Hitler Pact was actually declassified and made public during Gorbi`s reign in 1989. Another thing that is just too coincidental,don`t you think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact

It was only in 1989 that the Soviet authorities admitted the existence of the secret protocol of the Nazi-Soviet Pact.[5]A concern about ethnic Ukrainians and Belarusians had been offered as the reason for the Soviet invasion of Poland, rather than Soviet expansionism.

I mean the pact was bound to create tensions in USSR.

 

[jouni]

It depends on your perspective. A patriotic ukrainian would agree to you but a Russian would not. Also I do condemn the Holodomor. Only point is why the politburo selected Gorbi despite knowing his background????

Maybe there were some clever "grey eminences" as there usually is in these situations.

 

[Razor]

Nice article.

Gorbachev had Ukrainian parents and "greatly resented the Holodomor." It seems he got his vengeance by breaking up USSR.

From Wikipedia


Mikhail Gorbachev - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


He had plenty of reasons to hate the USSR. I mean just look at this above things. Also he was initially rejected the top position in USSR. Sadly/Happily the guy who was made his replacement died.


@jouni Look at the above.

Also our GOI awarded him Indira Gandhi Prize in 1987. Our govt always get trolled.

Gorbi seems more like the emotional kid dreaming big dreams, but no actual skill to implement his dreams.
And yeah you are right, he probably had a psychological sub-conscious scar from his memories.
----------

It seems to me that for nations to be able to maintain psychological sovereignty, there needs to be a strong culture and a strong leader.
Most nations that do not have these in the right amounts will eventually fall into the Western ideas of how the world should be.
Note: The expansion of the NATO.

So countries like China, India, Russia, Iran, Venezuela have strong cultures and leaders and these countries refuse to yield easily to Western whims.
But most such countries have their leadership systematically vilified in the Global press, which is dominated by the Western press agencies.
This explains the flurry of articles and desperate attempts by Western media to make Putin seem like a monster.

 

[Razor]

the Stalin Hitler Pact was actually declassified and made public during Gorbi`s reign in 1989. Another thing that is just too coincidental,don`t you think.

Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I mean the pact was bound to create tensions in USSR.

Nope.

The pact was published in Pravda almost immediately after it was signed.
Only part of the was not published and remained secret.

This is similar to Secret treaties and secret parts within say the US SOFA agreements.

 

[Peter]

Gorbi seems more like the emotional kid dreaming big dreams, but no actual skill to implement his dreams.
And yeah you are right, he probably had a psychological sub-conscious scar from his memories.
----------

It seems to me that for nations to be able to maintain psychological sovereignty, there needs to be a strong culture and a strong leader.
Most nations that do not have these in the right amounts will eventually fall into the Western ideas of how the world should be.
Note: The expansion of the NATO.

So countries like China, India, Russia, Iran, Venezuela have strong cultures and leaders and these countries refuse to yield easily to Western whims.
But most such countries have their leadership systematically vilified in the Global press, which is dominated by the Western press agencies.
This explains the flurry of articles and desperate attempts by Western media to make Putin seem like a monster.

Yes that`s right. I do not like Putin but I also do not like the concept of fragmented tiny nations. One can never forget that it was this fragmented india the British managed to conquer. During the reign of Aurangzeb the English had to bow down to him. They were defeated by us. However once India fragmented into smaller states we all know the disaster that befell us.

 

[Peter]

Nope.

The pact was published in Pravda almost immediately after it was signed.
Only part of the was not published and remained secret.

This is similar to Secret treaties and secret parts within say the US SOFA agreements.

I meant why was the complete pact only declassified during gorbi`s reign and not during any other soviet leader`s reign. What was the motive for that?

Also USSR denied the pact.

Despite publication of the recovered copy in western media, for decades, it was the official policy of the Soviet Union to deny the existence of the secret protocol.[228] The secret protocol's existence was officially denied until 1989. Vyacheslav Molotov, one of the signatories, went to his grave categorically rejecting its existence.[229] The French Communist Party did not acknowledge the existence of the secret protocol until 1968, as the party de-Stalinized.[192]

On 23 August 1986, tens of thousands of demonstrators in 21 western cities including New York, London, Stockholm, Toronto, Seattle, and Perth participated in Black Ribbon Day Rallies to draw attention to the secret protocols

For decades, it was the official policy of the Soviet Union to deny the existence of the secret protocol to the Soviet–German Pact. It was only after the Baltic Way demonstrations of 23 August 1989, where two million people created a human chain set on the 50th anniversary of the signing of the Pact that this policy changed.At the behest of Mikhail Gorbachev, Alexander Nikolaevich Yakovlev headed a commission investigating the existence of such a protocol.


In December 1989, the commission concluded that the protocol had existed and revealed its findings to the Congress of People's Deputies of the Soviet Union.[224] As a result, the first democratically elected Congress of Soviets passed the declaration confirming the existence of the secret protocols, condemning and denouncing them.[234][235] Both successor-states of the pact parties have declared the secret protocols to be invalid from the moment they were signed. The Federal Republic of Germany declared this on September 1, 1989 and the Soviet Union on December 24, 1989,[236] following an examination of the microfilmed copy of the German originals

Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Soviet copy of the original document was declassified in 1992 and published in a scientific journal in early 1993.[237]

In August 2009, in an article written for the Polish newspaper Gazeta Wyborcza, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin condemned the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact as "immoral."[238] In 2014 however, he defended the whole non-agression treaty and raised doubts about the secret protocols, saying that "people still argue about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact"

Baltic Way - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The above baltic way was also part of the breakup of USSR. Their demands was to release the pact`s information. Gorbi did that.

 

[Peter]

The Baltic Way or Baltic Chain (also Chain of Freedom,[1] Estonian: Balti kett, Latvian: Baltijas ceļš, Lithuanian: Baltijos kelias, Russian: Балтийский путь) was a peaceful political demonstration that occurred on August 23, 1989. Approximately two million people joined their hands to form a human chain spanning 675.5 kilometres (419.7 mi) across the three Baltic states – Estonian SSR, Latvian SSR, and Lithuanian SSR, republics of the Soviet Union.

The demonstration originated in "Black Ribbon Day" protests held in the western cities in the 1980s. It marked the 50th anniversary of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact between the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. The pact and its secret protocols divided Eastern Europe into spheres of influence and led to the occupation of the Baltic states in 1940. The event was organised by Baltic pro-independence movements: Rahvarinne of Estonia, the Tautas fronte of Latvia, and SÄ…jÅ«dis of Lithuania. The protest was designed to draw global attention by demonstrating a popular desire for independence for each of the entities. It also illustrated solidarity among the three nations. It has been described as an effective publicity campaign, and an emotionally captivating and visually stunning scene.[2][3] The event presented an opportunity for the Baltic activists to publicise the illegal Soviet occupation and position the question of Baltic independence not as a political matter, but as a moral issue. The Soviet authorities in Moscow responded to the event with intense rhetoric,[2] but failed to take any constructive actions that could bridge the widening gap between the Baltic states and the Soviet Union. Within seven months of the protest, Lithuania became the first of the Republics of the Soviet Union to declare independence.

After the Fall of Communism, August 23 has become an official remembrance day both in the Baltic countries, in the European Union and in other countries, known as the Black Ribbon Day or as the European Day of Remembrance for Victims of Stalinism and Nazism.

Baltic Way - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Razor]

I meant why was the complete pact only declassified during gorbi`s reign and not during any other soviet leader`s reign. What was the motive for that?

The reason for parts US Status of Forces Agreements being secret is assumed to be "operational significance".
Maybe the reason for the part of M-R pact being secret was initially that.
Later the Soviet leaders might have applied the CIA principle of "Need to know", plus they may have feared that releasing such info might affect credibility of present leaders and might incite unrest.
Later Gorbachev might have come under heavy pressure to release info (or he may have had other motives) and so started the process.
I am just guessing here.

 

[Peter]

The reason for parts US Status of Forces Agreements being secret is assumed to be "operational significance".
Maybe the reason for the part of M-R pact being secret was initially that.
Later the Soviet leaders might have applied the CIA principle of "Need to know", plus they may have feared that releasing such info might affect credibility of present leaders and might incite unrest.
Later Gorbachev might have come under heavy pressure to release info (or he may have had other motives) and so started the process.
I am just guessing here.

Whatever be the real reasons it did lead to the independence of the Baltic states.

In December 1989, the Congress of People's Deputies accepted and Mikhail Gorbachev signed the report by Yakovlev's commission condemning the secret protocols of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact. In February 1990, the first free democratic elections to the Supreme Soviets took place in all three Baltic states and pro-independence candidates won majorities. On March 11, 1990, within seven months of the Baltic Way, Lithuania became the first Soviet state to declare independence. The independence of all three Baltic states was recognised by most western countries by the end of 1991.

 

[asianobserve]

There were additional pages to the Treaty of Non-Aggression between Germany and the USSR that was not made public both in Germany and the USSR. These last part of the Treaty is now referred to as Secret Protocols.

Here's the Treaty:

Treaty of Nonaggression Between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics

The Government of the German Reich and the Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics desirous of strengthening the cause of peace between Germany and the U.S.S.R and proceeding from the fundamental provisions of the Neutrality Agreement concluded in April 1926 between Germany and the U.S.S.R., have reached the following agreement:

ARTICLE I

Both High Contracting Parties obligate, themselves to desist from any act of violence, any aggressive action, and any attack on each other, either individually or jointly with other powers.

ARTICLE II

Should one of the High Contracting Parties become the object of belligerent action by a third power, the other High Contracting Party shall in no manner lend its support to this third power.

ARTICLE III

The Governments of the two High Contracting Parties shall in the future maintain continual contact with one another for the purpose of consultation in order to exchange information on problems affecting their common interests.

ARTICLE IV

Neither of the two High Contracting Parties shall participate in any grouping of powers whatsoever that is directly or indirectly aimed at the other party.

ARTICLE V

Should disputes or conflicts arise between the High Contracting Parties over problems of one kind or another, both parties shall settle these disputes or conflicts exclusively through friendly exchange of opinion or, if necessary, through the establishment of arbitration commissions.

ARTICLE VI

The present treaty is concluded for a period of ten years, with the provision that, in so far as one of the High Contracting Parties does not denounce it one year prior to the expiration of this period, the validity of this treaty shall automatically be extended for another five years.

ARTICLE VI

The present treaty shall be ratified within the shortest possible time. The ratifications shall be exchanged in Berlin. The agreement shall enter into force as soon as it is signed.

Done in duplicate, in the German and Russian languages.

MOSCOW, August 23, 1939.

For the Government of the German Reich:

V. RIBBENTROP

With full power of the Government of the U.S.S.R.:

V. MOLOTOV

And here's the Secret Protocol:

Secret Additional Protocol

On the occasion of the signature of the Nonaggression Pact between the German Reich and the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics the undersigned plenipotentiaries of each of the two parties discussed in strictly confidential conversations the question of the boundary of their respective spheres of influence in Eastern Europe. These conversations led to the following conclusions:

1. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement in the areas belonging to the Baltic States (Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), the northern boundary of Lithuania shall represent the boundary of the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. In this connection the interest of Lithuania in the Vilna area is recognized by each party.

2. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the Polish state the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narew, Vistula, and San.

The question of whether the interests of both parties make desirable the maintenance of an independent Polish state and how such a state should be bounded can only be definitely determined in the course of further political developments.

In any event both Governments will resolve this question by means of a friendly agreement.

3. With regard to Southeastern Europe attention is called by the Soviet side to its interest in Bessarabia. The German side declares; its complete political disinterestedness in these areas.


This protocol shall be treated by both parties as strictly secret.

Moscow, August 23, 1939.

For the Government of the German Reich:

V. RIBBENTROP

Plenipotentiary of the Government of the U.S.S.R.:

V. MOLOTOV

The Non-Aggression Treaty and the earlier German–Soviet Trade and Credit Agreement were publicly announced in both Germany and the USSR. The Secret Protocol were kept secret however. The original German copy of the Secret Protocol was allegedly destroyed by Allied aerial bombing but a microfilm survived which was later on turned over to the British and Americans after the war.

In the USSR the Secret Protocol was kept hidden until 1989 when Gorbachev set up a commission to investigate the existence of the Secret Protocol.