Putin has Defended the Nazi-Soviet Pact

Discussion in 'Europe and Russia' started by asianobserve, Nov 10, 2014.

  1. jouni

    jouni Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,900
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Location:
    finland
    This crisis will reveal the biggest mistake of Putin, he has not been able to renew Russian economy. The money from the high oil prices of recent years has not been invested to development and diversifying the economy, instead it has been channeled to military and other non-productive sections of Russian economy. Europe is busy building new LNG terminals and Russia has for decades lost its reputation as reliable partner. Putin has basically created this whole "expansion of NATO threat" to buy time to plunder the country before the collapse, just like in the nineties.

    And Finland has been very low key so far. There is a genuine will in Finland to help Russia to become a "normal country", unfortunately Russia crossed a line with Crimea and East Ukraine and now also Finns feels that this is actually the Russias normal face. It is deeply flawed country and will remain so until the end of times.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2014
    asianobserve likes this.
  2. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2009
    Messages:
    43,133
    Likes Received:
    23,706
    Location:
    Somewhere
    The jury is out on the issue, as also on the other Malaysian plane that went off the radar.

    Everything is ridiculous till the mysteries are solved.

    Since I lost family friends in the Malaysian flight to China, I find it stupid and asinine and explanation that the aircraft simply vanished into thin air.

    It could not have, given the array of radars, satellites that have proliferated around the globe and outer space.

    A huge aircraft just vanishes!

    If that is not the most ridiculous thing that can be claimed, then what is?
     
  3. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2011
    Messages:
    10,241
    Likes Received:
    5,121
    Have you tried looking for your lost family friends among the bodies recovered from MH17? Maybe you should inform the surviving relatives of your family friends to look for the bodies of their loved ones lost from MH370 from the Dutch... :rolleyes:
     
  4. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Messages:
    3,480
    Likes Received:
    980
    You are VERY OPINIONATED. You live in a society shielded from all sides. You meet very few people. Your country's interests coincide or collide with very few countries.

    Your view of Russia is very narrow.

    Russia has industries which Russians are good in. Russia CANNOT have all kinds of industries. Russia can never be competitive in consumer electronics for example. It makes no sense to start industries only to see them closed down in few years.

    India is unsuccessful in comsumer electronics despite low wages.

    Russia has invested money where it saw chances of success. It also wasted a lot of money. A lot of money has simply disappeared from Russia. However Russia has prospered and achieved a semblance of stability through all this. Putin has to take the population along - even those who are not economically productive.
     
  5. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2009
    Messages:
    43,133
    Likes Received:
    23,706
    Location:
    Somewhere
    There is a method in all madness around the world.

    Indeed, money should be spent on the well being of the people and not for bolstering the military. But then, name any country that does not have a military and does not spend money on that.

    It is good that Europe is building LNG terminals. I hope they have also identified the source for LNG for uninterrupted and endless supply. Greater demand, and the supplying nation with have a windfall to the detriment of the customer nations.

    I wonder if Putin is the one who has created the 'NATO expansionist' threat.

    I thought NATO originally was confined to 12 members of the Alliance: Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, the United Kingdom and the United States.

    Now it is 28 countries.

    If that is not expansion, then is it a shrinkage?

    Threat to Russia?

    If the NATO leans on to Russia and continues to scupper up the remaining few left, would it be taken in Russia to be a sign and handshake of eternal friendship to Russia?

    Not that what happens in Europe affects my good sleep at night, but logic indicates that maybe the Russians have a good reason to feel worried and prickly.

    I don't understand why apologist for the West find it odd that Russia has good reasons to be worried. The same apologists should remember how they went berserk with fear and went to war when Germany merely acted in 1939 to bring all Germanic people and areas under its wings. Hitler was merely implementing the Pan-Germanism that was highly influential in German politics in the 19th century during the unification of Germany when the German Empire was proclaimed in as a nation-state in 1871 without Austria (Kleindeutsche Lösung/Lesser Germany),and the first half of the 20th century in the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the German Empire. It is worth noting that late 19th century, many Pan-Germanist thinkers, since 1891 organized in the Pan-German League, had adopted openly ethnocentric ideologies, that ultimately gave rise to the foreign policy Heim ins Reich. and there was no Pact in those days to 'save' any nations by those who later coalesced as the Allies.

    Russia, I think, can do well without a nation like Finland which is to them possibly a as large as a full stop (period in Amercanism) to 'help Russia become a 'normal country'.

    Indeed, what is a normal country?

    Where you and I seem to be at divergence is that while you look at issue in Europe from your standpoint i.e. Western interest protection view, I look at it from a bystander view, beyond the rivalry of the West and Russia.

    You use emotion and partisanship and I use logic.

    To be crystal clear, it does not matter if Russia, Europe and the US vanish into thin air for me. In fact, it would do the world a whole lot good.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2014
  6. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Messages:
    3,480
    Likes Received:
    980
    @jouni, my wish for Finland is to stay neutral, otherwise Finns will get hurt seriously.

    The situation is getting out of control. Your military will not be able to save you if nuclear bombs start flying.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  7. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2011
    Messages:
    10,241
    Likes Received:
    5,121
    Russia is on a quest of a fantasy based on a long lost period. It's imperial days are over and is never going back. It can no longer dictate what its neighbors want or that they only associate with it. The sooner it realizes that the better for itself and its neighbors.
     
  8. jouni

    jouni Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2014
    Messages:
    3,900
    Likes Received:
    1,136
    Location:
    finland
    You all who talk about NATO expansionism, conveniently forget what happened to Baltic States, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and East Germany after Stalin "liberated" them. He killed the officer class and "intelligentsia", changed them from democracies of Monarchs to socialistic buffers states and kept them as a milk cow for Moscow for 45 years.

    Can you honestly blame them for wanting security from old democratic European states for it ever happening again? Please name ONE thing that Russia can offer for Ukraine for example that is better than what Europe can offer? Did Brits kill upper class of India? Brits to India were like philanthropists compared to what Russian rule did to East Europe.

    And EU is not a blunderer: this year only Poland will get from EU 60 Billion Euros for development! Also my tax Euros go to Poland etc and I could not be happier for that. We have European identity which means something so great that I guess it is pretty hard for Asians to understand.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2014
    asianobserve likes this.
  9. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2011
    Messages:
    10,241
    Likes Received:
    5,121

    Crimean residents I think may know now what you;re saying:


    Or they may be too high on irrational emotion to feel their growing misery under Russia.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2014
    jouni likes this.
  10. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Messages:
    3,480
    Likes Received:
    980
    Brits killed plenty of upper caste in India directly, and through engineered famine and through engineered riots.

    Stalin may have been worse than Brits, and there may be a genuine bad feeling in countries that suffered through Stalin years.

    We are not blaming anybody.

    All I am saying is those times are past. This is time to look ahead. Globalization and EU/NATO are incompatible. Sure build an army through UN and give that army the task of suppressing violence.
     
  11. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Messages:
    3,480
    Likes Received:
    980
    The article you linked also says that savers have been compensated. Some amounts may be hanging due to lack of records.
    It was obvious that the Ukraine banking system cannot operate in Crimea under the circumstances. Look at what happened in Iraq after the US invasion. US sent planeloads of US dollars to Iraq.
     
  12. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2011
    Messages:
    10,241
    Likes Received:
    5,121
    You did not read the article well. The Russian compensation offer was sourced from Russian insurance deposit fund. There is a fixed maximum amount that can be paid to depositors from insurance deposits.
     
  13. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Messages:
    3,480
    Likes Received:
    980
    This is standard practice. Deposit insurance always has limits.
    The depositor can still get money from the Ukrainian bank. Russia is not stopping that.

    I suggest you look at Iraq for similar circumstances. You study that and then comment.
     
  14. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2011
    Messages:
    10,241
    Likes Received:
    5,121
    But as the article reports, Ukrainian banks are having a hard time since Crimean borrowers are not paying them (thanks to Putin's cynical advice) and that the Russian authorities confiscated their records and assets in Crimean branches.
     
  15. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Messages:
    3,480
    Likes Received:
    980
    Ukrainians banks don't have to take Putin's advice. They can still pay the depositors.

    The dispute between Ukraine and Russia does not have to involve depositors.

    When you involve depositors, you lose any goodwill with those people.
     
  16. ramakrishna

    ramakrishna Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    303
    Likes Received:
    168
    Location:
    Hyderabad, Telangana
    Not the ukrainian banks ,... its the Crimean borrowers took the advice from Putin and paying the Ukrainian banks ....
     
    asianobserve likes this.
  17. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Messages:
    3,480
    Likes Received:
    980
    I meant Ukrainian banks must pay their liabilities despite their dispute with Russia. What Putin says is not an issue to be settled with the depositors.
     
  18. Razor

    Razor STABLE GENIUS Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2011
    Messages:
    7,704
    Likes Received:
    9,044
    Location:
    Babudom of India
    Yeah, he was born in Russia. But to understand why I made that post you quoted, kindly go through below (originally posted post #41 here )

    From the emboldened part in the quote: Lenin is (1/8) th Russian and at best (1/4) th Russian, (1/4) th Ukrainian jew, (1/4) th Kalmyk, and (1/4) th Germanic (German+Swedish).
    From the Italicized part it is clear Lenin viewed Russian culture with contempt, and I'd assume used that "russian" card only when it suited him, like say to gain popularity.
    So I find it hard to swallow that he considered himself "russian", in spite what mainstream media wants to propel.

    Okay.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2014
  19. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    33,274
    Likes Received:
    19,487
    Location:
    EST, USA
    @Razor,

    The official biography of Lenin was obviously the "official" biography, and most likely to make him more acceptable to the Russians, his non-Russian heritage was suppressed.

    Coming to Chuvash and Kalmyk ancestry, although not Slavic, I consider them Russian. Russian does not necessarily have to be Slavic. Russians are predominantly Slavic, not exclusively Slavic.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  20. Razor

    Razor STABLE GENIUS Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2011
    Messages:
    7,704
    Likes Received:
    9,044
    Location:
    Babudom of India
    Yes, of course. That is understandable.
    It wouldn't seem nice if the leader of the revolution was only (1/8) th Russian.

    Well, yes. They are Russified Turko-Mongols. But to an extent they do maintain their traditions.


    There is a difference between Ruskie (rrooskee) as in ethnic Russian and Rossiyane, as in a demonym for inhabitants of Russian federation. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you refer to the latter.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015

Share This Page