Public Protests in China: How much is allowed?

amoy

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
5,982
Likes
1,849
@bennedose my graph is a full glass, half glass India, half glass China. if u reset your skewed attention u'll find it very informative on China.

my heart is bleeding when I come across the data of "child mortality rate", then I feel a bit joyful when I see u in the 9% internet users.

Sent from my 5910 using Tapatalk 2
 
Last edited by a moderator:

ice berg

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2011
Messages
2,145
Likes
292
I am sure Google will give you the answers to your questions. :cool2: But your questions again are a diversion from the topic. They are not answers to questions I have asked. It is easy to deflect questions by saying someone is a troll. But it is equally simple to say you are trolling. Of course you may be trolling, but you need to be exposed to some good tit-for tat counter trolling so you can see reason.

Fact is you wil not reply to any question about China where you have to specifically talk about Chinese problems. At best the more well informed Chinese poster will link some "peer reviewed sources". The rest will stonewall, give clever non answers, get angry and talk about india or simply say "Consult Google"

Either you guys are ill informed and pretending that you represent China or you are trolling. If you are not trolling, you are unable to provide any good information about things in China that Google is unable to provide.
Here is where I disagree with you.
You see it as a diverstion from the topic. I see it as a relevant part of discussion.

You say you are seeking answers. I see it as you want a confirmation of your bias. The reason is already provided, because so far Google has been adequate for most of them.

P.S I see you are dogging my questions in the previous post. But that is ok.
 

bennedose

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
1,365
Likes
2,169
@bennedose my graph is a full glass, half glass India, half glass China. if u reset your skewed attention u'll find it very informative on China.

my heart is bleeding when I come across the data of "child mortality rate", then I feel a bit joyful when I see u in the 9% internet users.

Sent from my 5910 using Tapatalk 2
Amoy what I find childish about your post is that you imagine that I do not know the comparative statistics. I have a good idea as to why Indians statistics are much worse than China's But I also have a good idea of how China went about improving some of its statistics, assuming the statistics are accurate. I asked a question about abortion clinics in China . Are you willing to take a shot at the answer? Indian women have total fertility rate of 2.58 versus 1.55 for China. China reduced fertility by coercion so that medical statistics and nutrition could catch up. Abortion clinics are part of that as far as my knowledge goes.

Now I can point you to Google links but I am asking what you know.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

bennedose

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
1,365
Likes
2,169
Here is where I disagree with you.
You see it as a diverstion from the topic. I see it as a relevant part of discussion.

You say you are seeking answers. I see it as you want a confirmation of your bias. The reason is already provided, because so far Google has been adequate for most of them.

P.S I see you are dogging my questions in the previous post. But that is ok.
Yes disagreements are allowed. I am not going to answer questions about myself. I am sure Google can help you as much with your questions as it can help me about China.

If a Chinese with an agricultural Hukou is asked to migrate to the city but his hukou is not changed and he has no security, how does he protest in China? Does he hire a lawyer and sue the government? Does he met an opposition party politician and demand support in exchange for a vote? Or does he simply sit back and take it? f he simply sits back ad takes it - what is it about the system that scars him and prevents him from protesting?
 

ice berg

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2011
Messages
2,145
Likes
292
Yes disagreements are allowed. I am not going to answer questions about myself. I am sure Google can help you as much with your questions as it can help me about China.
It seems you need a basic course in what you can or can not find on the internet.
THose were my questions:

That begs the question:
1.Are you lazy and expected to be spoon-fed?
2.Are you trolling and flamebait?

Most people probably think you are trolling, which is why the India China comparison comes up.
It is hard to digest that you " care" more about what happends in China when things are alot worse in India.
Isnt that a kind of denial when you point out those negative things in China yet refuse to discuss how related issues are dealed in India?
Since when is a comparison a form for denial?
In many cases it makes sense to compare those two countries.
Similar population, location, development circle. Modern history-colonism etc.

Why are you uncomfortable with the comparisons?
What country is more natural to compare China with?

Those questions deal with Your ignorance and double standards. The answers lies within you. They can not be found on the internet.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
@iceberg,

He is a seasoned poster on many forums and is hardly known as a troll.

He does ask incisive questions that are hard to find answers for.

And he is knowledgeable and author of many books on strategy etc.

He is high regarded in his actual profession, which is not strategy or authorship!

One would hardly be in the right state of mind to call him ignorant.
 

nimo_cn

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
4,032
Likes
883
Country flag
Amoy what I find childish about your post is that you imagine that I do not know the comparative statistics. I have a good idea as to why Indians statistics are much worse than China's But I also have a good idea of how China went about improving some of its statistics, assuming the statistics are accurate. I asked a question about abortion clinics in China . Are you willing to take a shot at the answer? Indian women have total fertility rate of 2.58 versus 1.55 for China. China reduced fertility by coercion so that medical statistics and nutrition could catch up. Abortion clinics are part of that as far as my knowledge goes.

Now I can point you to Google links but I am asking what you know.
since you are from India, i would like to hear about abortions in India before we proceed to China.

if you like, you can do a comparison between India and China, then we can get a better picture of the issue.

Sent from my HUAWEI T8951 using Tapatalk 2
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
since you are from India, i would like to hear about abortions in India before we proceed to China.

if you like, you can do a comparison between India and China, then we can get a better picture of the issue.

Sent from my HUAWEI T8951 using Tapatalk 2
The first point to note that there can be no comparison.

Abortions, in India, are not State sponsored.

There lies the cardinal error in comparing it with India.
 

nimo_cn

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
4,032
Likes
883
Country flag
The first point to note that there can be no comparison.

Abortions, in India, are not State sponsored.

There lies the cardinal error in comparing it with India.
abortions are abortions, they are all performed to achieve the same purpose, to terminate pregnancy, so there can be comparison.

i know Indians are shy to compare India with China, then let us put China aside and only focus on India.

how many abortions are performed in India? what are the causes and consequences of the abortions?

Sent from my HUAWEI T8951 using Tapatalk 2
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
abortions are abortions, they are all performed to achieve the same purpose, to terminate pregnancy, so there can be comparison.

i know Indians are shy to compare India with China, then let us put China aside and only focus on India.

how many abortions are performed in India? what are the causes and consequences of the abortions?

Sent from my HUAWEI T8951 using Tapatalk 2
Indians = human
= Chinese.

Both are human.

But is a chinese = Indian beyond being humans?

There is statistics not only by Indian agencies, but also by international agencies.

We have nothing to cloak like the Chinese.

So, why should we be shy.

Abortion is a choice of the woman in India.

Govt cannot order abortion, as is done in China.

That is the fine difference between China and India.
 
Last edited:

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
330 million abortions since 1971 in China; 1500 per hour: government stats

March 18, 2013 (LifeSiteNews.com) – New data from China's health ministry has revealed that approximately 330 million abortions have been performed in the country since 1971, according to AFP.

According to Chinese government researchers, currently about 13 million abortions occur annually, or about 1,500 every hour on average.

As well, over the past 40 years Chinese officials have sterilized nearly 200 million men and women, and inserted 400 million intra-uterine devices.

LifeSiteNews Mobile | 330 million abortions since 1971 in China; 1500 per hour: government stats

Govt at work.

There are many who want a second child in China, but can't have it as per Govt rules.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
Check this for Forced Abortion in China

Forced Abortion | All Girls Allowed

Also read this

China Couple Speak Of 'Forced Abortion'

Check the video

A couple have told Sky News how they were physically forced into an abortion by the Chinese authorities, three months before their child was due to be born.

At 4am last Friday, a group of 20 officials from the Shandong Province Family Planning Commission forced their way into the home of Zhou Guoqiang and his wife Liu Xinwen.

The officials kicked down the door of the family's home. Mr Zhou was held down while his wife was pulled from her bed and taken away.

Liu Xinwen, 33, was taken to the People's Hospital of Fangzi District in Weifang City where she was injected with an abortion-inducing drug.

Her baby, which she would later discover was a boy, died a day later in her womb. It took a further day for the foetus to be delivered.

Her husband was not told where she had been taken. It took him five hours to find her at the hospital. By then, the injection had been given.

Sky News met the couple six days later. Mr Zhou had invited us to the family's modest home in a rural corner of the province to hear their story.

We found his wife lying in the bed she had been taken from a week earlier. She was sobbing quietly.

"I miss him." she said.

"I didn't get to see him. I would be even more upset if I had seen him.

"Baby, I'm sorry. We were not meant to be. You rest in peace in heaven. We will pray for you. We hope your next life is better."

Her heartbreak is the most brutal consequence of China's one-child policy.

The law is designed to keep the country's population in check. It prevents couples from having more than one child with a few exceptions in some rural provinces.

The policy is supposed to be enforced through financial penalties and not forced abortions. But in some provinces, over-zealous local officials, keen to keep within their birth quotas, break the law and terminate pregnancies by force.

"They don't have any humanity. They are not humans." Liu Xinwen said.

"They must have children and parents too. But they don't have any conscience. This is how China is."

Mr Zhou told how the officials held him down on the sofa while others took his wife away. In all, there were 16 male officials and four females.

We then sit down to look at photos he had taken in the hospital room. They are almost indescribably graphic.

One photograph shows Liu Xinwen lying on the bed. Beside her, on the floor, is a bucket. Inside is her aborted child.

Several other images show the foetus. It is fully formed.

"His nose, ears, mouth are all there." Mr Zhou said.

"It is a child that would have lived if not for the forced abortion. It's because of their cruelty. Look, his hand is very obvious."

Mr Zhou broke down as he recalled the moment he arrived in the hospital, just minutes after the injection had been administered.

"My wife was lying in bed. I asked her: 'Have you been injected?' She said 'yes'. I asked if the baby was still moving. She said 'not much'.

"After that, I didn't want my wife to see my crying. I went outside. I cried, but only for a while because I needed to return to comfort her. She was very sad. She cried, day and night.

"Every time I heard babies' voices from other wards, I could hardly control myself. I had to go out. I have lost my child. I am speechless, words can't describe my feelings."

He claimed that his wife was forced to sign papers which said she had agreed to the abortion.

When she initially refused, he said they told her that if she did not sign the papers, they would arrest her husband and she would have nothing. We have not been able to independently verify this.

The couple already have one son. Zhou Junfeng is 10. As we talk to his parents, he runs around the house playing. He is oblivious to the grief around him.

After Zhou Junfeng was born his mother underwent a state-proscribed procedure to insert a contraceptive coil into her body.

She says that this "forced sterilisation" must have failed, allowing her to fall pregnant for a second time.

The couple had the option to tell the authorities about the pregnancy the moment they discovered it, four months after conception.

They decided not to come clean because they were concerned that an abortion may be forced on them.

Instead, they said they planned to tell the authorities after the birth and then offer to pay the fine. This is common in parts of China and is sometimes acceptable.

Mr Zhou offered to take us to the hospital to see the room where the abortion happened.

Inside the hospital, we saw the room which is part of a fully functioning maternity ward; it is not a backstreet abortion clinic.

We found just two members of staff. One refused to comment. The other, a young nurse, was reluctant and a little startled to find a foreign TV crew in her hospital.

"I don't know if it's forced or not. And I don't know the reason for it," she said.

"This is a maternity ward; there are many reasons for abortions. I don't know the specific reason for this case and it's not my place to care."

Sky News has approached the Shandong Health and Family Planning Commission, the central government Family Planning Commission in Beijing and the Chinese Embassy in London for a response to this case.

At midday British time, the embassy told Sky News they were looking into the case and would provide a more detailed response later.

China Couple Speak Of 'Forced Abortion'
 

K Factor

A Concerned Indian
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
1,316
Likes
147
Our Chinese posters seem to have gone with the old adage of "Offence is the best Defence".

Abortions in India are not state sponsored or state guided. It is up to the individual or family to determine if they want to have the child or not. There lies the fundamental difference.

Can parents who want a second child (there are definitely to be many such parents) protest against government policy?
 

nimo_cn

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
4,032
Likes
883
Country flag
See?

Indian posters are fond of topics like abortions, but when it comes to abortions in India, all indian posters become surprisingly indifferent. However, their unanimous silence on this subject intrigues me, Indians I know always argues with each other over different subjects, I always have the impression that Indians are unable to reach any agreement. But why is every Indian poster dodgin my questions about abortions in India as if it is some kind of taboo?

How many abortions are performed in India each year?

Abortion in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
According to the Consortium on National Consensus for Medical Abortion in India, every year an average of about 11 million pregnancies are medically terminated,
Of course I believed that every Indian female received this kind of operation happily since our Indian posters claimed that this was their choice, until I find out that

and 20,000 women die every year due to abortion related complications
Every Two Hours in India, a Woman Dies From an Unsafe Abortion | TIME.com

Every Two Hours in India, a Woman Dies From an Unsafe Abortion
Each year, 19 million to 20 million women risk their lives to undergo unsafe abortions, conducted in unsanitary conditions by unqualified practitioners or practitioners who resort to traditional but rudimentary means
Sad, isn't it?

Anyway, good for them, at least they had the freedom to choose to die in an abortion operation performed in a free democracy, which is still better off than living in a totalitarian state.

But wait a minute, free to make a choice? Not really.

17-year-old girl dies after forced abortion in India
LifeSiteNews Mobile | 17-year-old girl dies after forced abortion in India: Report
According to police, a 17-year-old mother died following a forced abortion last Thursday in India.
Women Pregnant With Girls Pressured Into Abortions in India - ABC News

It is a country with a female president and where men revere female goddesses. And yet, India is far from a haven for women.

According to current estimates, Indian men outnumber women by nearly 40 million. That startling gender gap, activists say, is the result of gendercide. Nearly 50,000 female fetuses are aborted every month and untold numbers of baby girls are abandoned or murdered.

10 million females illegally aborted in India
10 million females illegally aborted in India

By conservative estimates, sex-selective abortion in India accounts for the termination of about 10 million females over the past 20 years.

"This is the world's biggest genocide ever," Chetan Sharma, a campaigner against female feticide, told the Daily Mail of London.

BBC News - Where are India's millions of missing girls?
India's unwanted girls

India's 2011 census shows a serious decline in the number of girls under the age of seven - activists fear eight million female foetuses may have been aborted in the past decade. The BBC's Geeta Pandey in Delhi explores what has led to this crisis.

Kulwant has three daughters aged 24, 23 and 20 and a son who is 16.

In the years between the birth of her third daughter and her son, Kulwant became pregnant three times.
 

bennedose

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
1,365
Likes
2,169
since you are from India, i would like to hear about abortions in India before we proceed to China.

if you like, you can do a comparison between India and China, then we can get a better picture of the issue.

Sent from my HUAWEI T8951 using Tapatalk 2
I would be happy to do that but
1. You start a separate thread for that. This thread is for China
2. You are doing exactly what all Chinese do - that is to try and change the subject to India when asked uncomfortable questions about China

Note that Google has some information about abortions in China. I can see that there is a problem. But I will discuss it if people are able to talk about t in a mature way. There just seem to be any Chinese of that caliber on this board.

For example - abortions are associated with some mortality. Do Chinese maternal mortality figures include those from abortions? I would like to see some "peer reviewed" statistics.

China has a shortfall of women. The most likely reason is abortion of female foetuses. Let us see some discussion that shows that you guys are serious rather than simply trying to avoid shame and shift the topic. But then again - it may just be that you guys simply know nothing and are just blindly doing "rah rah China". That seems very likely to me - which is disappointing.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top