Project-75I class SSK Submarines

[IndianHawk]

when ? it's always the same question as for India.

You didn't read the previous post. It shall be ready by 2022 according to official DRDO report. I'm giving them 5 year delay it should still be ready before 75i goes into production.

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[BON PLAN]

You didn't read the previous post. It shall be ready by 2022 according to official DRDO report. I'm giving them 5 year delay it should still be ready before 75i goes into production.

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sorry but, is there just one weapon developped on time these last 30 years in India?

 

[bose]

P-75I subs won't be any where near ready by 2027. KEep in mind EOI has only been sent out now, it will take 3-4 years to sign a deal and another 5 years to get a boat ready.

Waste of time, just order another 6 Scorpenes with AIP and get them build at MDL. Use another line for SSN.

Mazagon docks must not halt the production of submarines once they complete the current one's ordered and can de link it with the 75I... we can also negociate with DCNS for bigger ones ... the current Scorpenes are smaller [1800 tons ] we need bigger submarines with 2500 - 3000 tons that will be fulfilled with 75I definitely ...

India will see 75I from 2030 onward to be earliest ... India lacks numbers ...

 

[BON PLAN]

Mazagon docks must not halt the production of submarines once they complete the current one's ordered and can de link it with the 75I... we can also negociate with DCNS for bigger ones ... the current Scorpenes are smaller [1800 tons ] we need bigger submarines with 2500 - 3000 tons that will be fulfilled with 75I definitely ...

India will see 75I from 2030 onward to be earliest ... India lacks numbers ...

Ex DCNS (now Naval Group) has a bigger product in its fortpolio : Shortfins Barracuda (4500 tons).
To meet the Australian needs, no AIP was needed. But we can easily imagine a SF Barracuda or a shorter model between it and Scorpene with AIP. The bigger the sub is, the easier it is to integrate AIP.

 

[bose]

Ex DCNS (now Naval Group) has a bigger product in its fortpolio : Shortfins Barracuda (4500 tons).
To meet the Australian needs, no AIP was needed. But we can easily imagine a SF Barracuda or a shorter model between it and Scorpene with AIP. The bigger the sub is, the easier it is to integrate AIP.

I understand that DCNS [ Navel Group] is fielding SF Barracuda for 75I ... correct me if I am wrong ...

Scorpene class is different than that of SF Barracuda class ... what I meant that if we can get a bigger Scorpene [ 3000 tons] for the next supplementary order once the current 6 submarine production is completed ... Indian can maintain the numbers and hedge against any possible delay from 75I ...

 

[Armand2REP]

Ex DCNS (now Naval Group) has a bigger product in its fortpolio : Shortfins Barracuda (4500 tons).
To meet the Australian needs, no AIP was needed. But we can easily imagine a SF Barracuda or a shorter model between it and Scorpene with AIP. The bigger the sub is, the easier it is to integrate AIP.

With the new Saft solid state batteries coming out in 2025 AIP will be obsolete by then.

 

[IndianHawk]

sorry but, is there just one weapon developped on time these last 30 years in India?

Plenty within 4-5 years delay. Nothing unusual in defense projects. Akash 1s tested in time , Astra mk1 ready , bramhos operational.

But I get it your just trying to sell French products. You know what is more important to sell French submarine that criticising Indian projects:: don't leak you submarine detail like incompetent idiots. Lol.

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[IndianHawk]

Ex DCNS (now Naval Group) has a bigger product in its fortpolio : Shortfins Barracuda (4500 tons).
To meet the Australian needs, no AIP was needed. But we can easily imagine a SF Barracuda or a shorter model between it and Scorpene with AIP. The bigger the sub is, the easier it is to integrate AIP.

Baracuda is a joke .it's so costly that Australian would rather be better off with nuke submarine.


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[IndianHawk]

With the new Saft solid state batteries coming out in 2025 AIP will be obsolete by then.

And what is the status of these batteries now?

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[IndianHawk]

Mazagon docks must not halt the production of submarines once they complete the current one's ordered and can de link it with the 75I... we can also negociate with DCNS for bigger ones ... the current Scorpenes are smaller [1800 tons ] we need bigger submarines with 2500 - 3000 tons that will be fulfilled with 75I definitely ...

India will see 75I from 2030 onward to be earliest ... India lacks numbers ...

Only problem is leakage of Scorpion details including acoustic signature. What is the guarantee that incompetent idiots of DCNS wouldn't repeat their mistake?



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[bose]

Only problem is leakage of Scorpion details including acoustic signature. What is the guarantee that incompetent idiots of DCNS wouldn't repeat their mistake?



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not sure what was leaked out ... if it is serious then big loss for Indian Navy and french company ...

 

[Armand2REP]

And what is the status of these batteries now?

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France is building a multi-billion mega factory to produce next gen Li-Ion batteries by 2023, solid state mass production by 2025.

 

[Steven Rogers]

With the new Saft solid state batteries coming out in 2025 AIP will be obsolete by then.

Sterling aip, MESMA aip,and lead acid batteries will be obsolete not the fuel cell AIP.

 

[Armand2REP]

Sterling aip, MESMA aip,and lead acid batteries will be obsolete not the fuel cell AIP.

AIP is not only expensive, it takes up a bunch of space. If you swap that out for cheaper solid state battery banks to double or even triple storage, the capacity of the batteries gives it endurance closer to nuclear submarines with far greater energy capacity at the ready anytime you need it. SSKs that normally do 20knts at max speed can go SSN speeds.

 

[BON PLAN]

Plenty within 4-5 years delay. Nothing unusual in defense projects. Akash 1s tested in time , Astra mk1 ready , bramhos operational.

But I get it your just trying to sell French products. You know what is more important to sell French submarine that criticising Indian projects:: don't leak you submarine detail like incompetent idiots. Lol.

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Tejas, Arjun, nihrbay... Hummm you're fine!

 

[BON PLAN]

Only problem is leakage of Scorpion details including acoustic signature. What is the guarantee that incompetent idiots of DCNS wouldn't repeat their mistake?



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The Indian defense top brass said these leaks were not important...
But you probably are well informed than them. LOL.

 

[BON PLAN]

not sure what was leaked out ... if it is serious then big loss for Indian Navy and french company ...

These leaks were only common marketing datas.
Organised by a desperate competitor (German one)....

 

[Vijyes]

The french has 2 assets :
A sub already in the indian arsenal (Scorpene).
A dedicated cruise missile (SCALP NAVAL). All the others are relying on US missiles.

India already gas demonstrated successful firing of Nirbhay and Brahmos. It is just a matter of changing the launcher to submarine tube. Why would India need Scalp missile?

India needs design of submarine with these launcher tubes and AIP. India already has Technology but wants to reduce designing time by strategic partnership

P-75I subs won't be any where near ready by 2027. KEep in mind EOI has only been sent out now, it will take 3-4 years to sign a deal and another 5 years to get a boat ready.

Waste of time, just order another 6 Scorpenes with AIP and get them build at MDL. Use another line for SSN.

This is a bigger scorpene submarine with AIP & Missile launcher tube. So, it should be ready quickly if there are partners willing to give the design. India has the Technology and skillsets for making submarine already

 

[Vijyes]

With the new Saft solid state batteries coming out in 2025 AIP will be obsolete by then.

There are already LI ion batteries. Do you see a billion mobile phones being made every year? All of these have lithium battery. But, AIP is still in use. There is no point giving 2025 deadline

France is building a multi-billion mega factory to produce next gen Li-Ion batteries by 2023, solid state mass production by 2025.

France doesn't have lithium deposit. So, France will still have to import lithium. So, not really a big strategic achievement. France already has access to lithium batteries. It is only a question of whether it should be used in submarine or not.

AIP is not only expensive, it takes up a bunch of space. If you swap that out for cheaper solid state battery banks to double or even triple storage, the capacity of the batteries gives it endurance closer to nuclear submarines with far greater energy capacity at the ready anytime you need it. SSKs that normally do 20knts at max speed can go SSN speeds.

Lithium ion batteries catch fire like crazy. The AIP batteries like phosphoric acid or Lead acid ones don't catch fire easily. Lithium ion batteries will need extreme cooling to prevent them from firing up.

Also lithium ion batteries are aleays made in small cell, generally of 18650 specifications due to its problem with scaling in size. Even Tesla uses batteries with thousands of 18650 batteries instead of using a few big blocks of lithium batteries. Cooling each small battery individually will be very difficult

Japan has been trying to get lithium batteries in its submarine but has found that they pose serious danger of fires. Considering that submarine also has to endure couple of hits in warfare, mainly from enemy attacks and even obstacles in sea bed, the lithium ion battery will be a big threat. The way in which it rapidly catches fire rapidly means that it will be considered an unacceptable risk.

Lotus ion batteries were considered for airlines too as that would significantly reduce weight. But even here it was considered to be unacceptable risk.

Lithium ion batteries are light weight but not safe. So it will be used only in non critical areas. Don't expect it to be used in submarines or other critical areas where reliability and safety is important

 

[Enquirer]

Here's a question for the Submarine tech experts (please answer if you know for sure, no speculation please):

When AIP is used, it can remain underwater for couple of weeks....
What happens when the AIP fuel is exhausted?
1.) Can the chemical process be reversed (by applying electricity in reverse, when the submarine surfaces & is able to run the diesel generators)?
Or
2.) is it a one time use only....needing redocking to replace the chemical fuel?

(I think number 2 is the case)

In either case, why not reduce battery size to a minimum (or eliminate it) and use AIP all the way?
- Is the energy density of diesel better than that of the AIP (fuel cell) ingredient? In which case why not just replace the AIP module with additional batteries (for longer endurance)?
- Is the cost of diesel so cheap that the combination of diesel and AIP (fuel cell) is preferred? in which case why not just replace the AIP module with additional batteries (for longer endurance)?