Project- 75(I). Next gen subs. RFP issued

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by plugwater, Jul 11, 2010.

  1. neo29

    neo29 Senior Member Senior Member

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    We need submarines on fast track mode so that they can be delivered soon and this is only possible if the construction is done abroad. Its ok if we have to shell out some extra money for fast tracking the construction but we need to do it now. We have only 8 diesel electric submarines operational and PLA-N has 58.
     
  2. JHA

    JHA Regular Member

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    The good thing with S-80 is that there is a lot of room for further improvement and will keep it cutting edge for atleast 20 years.
    The thing is that every Sub has some Pros and Cons . It will be a tough choice to make.
     
  3. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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  4. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    A26 is still in design phase LF sir. We don't have the luxury to wait especially in submarine procurement. We are going to start the construction of P75I in 2012 so we better go for some proven submarine design like Lada and U212. Also thr are not much political gain if we buy from sweden.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2010
  5. nitesh

    nitesh Mob Control Manager Stars and Ambassadors

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  6. nitesh

    nitesh Mob Control Manager Stars and Ambassadors

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    now more masala blame navy too :)

    N-subs: India debates, China struggles

    An increasingly apparent reason for the Ministry of Defence’s slow decision-making on a second submarine production line for the Indian Navy is: the deep divisions within the navy over India’s submarine force. A debate rages between the submarine arm and the surface navy — particularly the dominant aviation wing — on whether the future lies in submarines or aircraft carriers. The navy’s submariners, meanwhile, debate the merits of conventional versus nuclear-powered submarines.

    Slowed by these internal debates, India’s 30-Year Submarine Construction Plan, which the government approved in 1999, has languished. The 30-Year plan envisioned building 24 conventional submarines in India. Six were to be built from western technology and six with Russian collaboration; then Indian designers, having absorbed the best of both worlds, would build 12 submarines indigenously. Project 75, to build six Scorpene submarines (the “western” six), was contracted in 2005. In this series of articles, Business Standard has reported that the MoD believes it is still 4-6 years away from Project 75I, i.e. beginning work on the second six submarines.

    A senior retired admiral, reflecting the views of the submarine arm, blames the navy’s “aircraft carrier lobby” for the delay in building submarines. He alleges: “The last two naval chiefs (Admirals Arun Prakash and Sureesh Mehta) were aviators, who had no interest in using the navy’s limited budget for building submarines. So they exploited the division of opinion amongst submariners — the nuclear-powered versus conventional submarine debate — to push submarine building into the future.”

    Nuclear-powered submarines are of two types: ballistic missile submarines (called SSBNs) and attack submarines (referred to as SSNs). Both are propelled by power from a miniature on-board reactor, but SSBNs also fire nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles. SSBNs are not a part of the fighting navy; they constitute a country’s nuclear deterrent and fire their nuclear-tipped missiles on orders from the national leadership. SSNs operate as part of a naval fleet, moving under nuclear power and sinking surface warships with conventional torpedoes and missiles.

    Interestingly, India is the only country that has chosen to build SSBNs (the recently-launched INS Arihant, and two successor submarines) before building an SSN force. The reason has been a deeply felt need to operationalise the nuclear triad — land, sea and air-based nuclear delivery systems that India’s Draft Nuclear Doctrine stipulates as a secure second-strike capability.

    But the possibility of an SSN force remains tantalisingly alive. In 2004 — when INS Arihant was being developed under the Advanced Technology Vessel, or ATV, programme — Admiral Arun Prakash, then navy chief, proposed that the ATV programme be enlarged to six SSBNs and four SSNs. This required the allocation of Rs 10,000 crore for the DRDO to develop the necessary technologies. Pranab Mukherjee, then the defence minister, backed the allocation of this funding. But, according to sources close to the ATV project, once AK Antony took over as defence minister in 2006, he backed off, insisting that the Prime Minister’s Office should take all decisions relating to India’s strategic nuclear programme. The proposal for funding technology development lapsed.

    But the Director General of the DRDO, Dr VK Saraswat, confirms that an SSN could be developed without difficulty. Talking to Business Standard, Saraswat said, “I have no charter to build an SSN at the moment. But once the government takes a policy decision… we can start working on it. The only major difference between a nuclear powered attack submarine (i.e. an SSN) and an SSBN is weaponry, and the size changes. The technology for design, packaging, and integration remains similar.”

    Votaries of nuclear submarines, such as Rear Admiral (Retired) Raja Menon, argue that nuclear-powered submarines have a crucial advantage over conventional ones: endurance. While conventional (diesel-electric) submarines are more quiet and harder to detect while submerged, they are easily picked up when they surface to charge their batteries. Furthermore, they move slowly underwater, unlike nuclear submarines, which can remain submerged almost indefinitely. This allows a single nuclear submarine — travelling underwater to its patrol station and remaining there, undetected, for months — to do the job of multiple conventional submarines, which give their position away when they surface at regular intervals.

    Admiral Menon explains, “A single SSN can dominate an area 1,000 nautical miles (1,850 km) away as effectively as three conventional submarines, which require one submarine on station, another transiting to relieve it, and a third transiting back to refuel. If the patrol area is farther than 1,000 nautical miles, a single SSN does the job of five conventional submarines. That is why the US Navy fields an all-nuclear force.”

    But Menon accepts that the Indian Navy would always need conventional submarines. India’s coastal waters are so shallow that SSNs, which typically weigh 4,000-5,000 tonnes, run the risk of scraping the bottom. Conventional submarines, which normally weigh around 1,500 tonnes, are needed for dominating the coastal areas. But the complexities of a nuclear submarine programme are evident from China’s current difficulties. The Pentagon’s recent report to the US Congress, entitled “Military and Security Developments Involving the People’s Republic of China, 2010” reveals that China’s SSN and SSBN programmes are in trouble. China relies on its four primitive Han-class attack submarines (Type 091), having decided to close construction of the newer Shen-class (Type 093). Currently, China is grappling with a newer Type 095 SSN; five of these could be added “in the coming years”.

    China also faces problems in developing SSBNs. The first Xia-class (Type 092) SSBN line produced just one submarine, which was never deployed on a deterrence patrol. Then China shifted focus to a newer Jin-class (Type 094), of which the first SSBN “appears ready”, with four more under construction. However, the long-range ballistic missile for the Jin-class SSBNs, termed the Julang-2, has “encountered difficulty… failing several of what should have been the final round of flight tests.”
     
  7. bengalraider

    bengalraider DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    I believe that given the current paucity of submarines we can ill afford to have delays in any deliveries of the new submarine, hence i would back the Rubin/Navantia S-1000 , true the normal S-1000 does not have the capability to launch SLCM's but given some time and money three is no reason we cannot MKIse the boat! buying the S-1000 would bring a unique advantage we can have three boats in construction at the same time one in Spain one in Russia and the third in India hence we will be able to add three submarines to the fleet in the same time that for any other option would be only one submarine!

    also
    http://www.nti.org/db/submarines/india/index.html


    http://www.fincantieri.it/CMS/Data/...EY_armatore=&CMSKEY_anno=&CMSKEY_sottotitolo=
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2010
  8. sandeepdg

    sandeepdg Senior Member Senior Member

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    Mate, we are looking for diesel subs anyway, and I don't think French will sell Barracuda nuclear subs to us. They will be getting their first one 2016, even if they sell one of them to us, won't be before 2020 at least !!
     
  9. sandeepdg

    sandeepdg Senior Member Senior Member

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    Again, mate, we are in the market for conventional subs, not nuclear subs !!
     
  10. sandeepdg

    sandeepdg Senior Member Senior Member

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  11. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    I was saying we could even buy borei with the money we are going to spend in this deal not that we need to buy.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2010
  12. keshtopatel

    keshtopatel Regular Member

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    Which American company manufactures conventional (diesel-electric) submarines?


    America does not produce conventional submarines on its own!

     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2010
  13. keshtopatel

    keshtopatel Regular Member

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    On per capita basis, India is loosing the ground against Pakistan as for as operational (submarine) stock is taken. More, Pakistani boats are younger than Indians (proportionately) to last them longer.
     
  14. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Seems this split is going to result only in delays. And Masala continues -

    Source
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2010
  15. Maverick007

    Maverick007 Regular Member

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    Just buy Lada's equpped with Brahmos and Klubs and get the deal done cheap...........Ladas are as good as anything in europe and will be much cheaper
     
  16. JHA

    JHA Regular Member

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    Only problem is that We dont know if their AIP is functional or, not..And in future there seems to be no chance of upgrading either as Russians are going for nuclear Subs now...
     
  17. jatkshatriya

    jatkshatriya Regular Member

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    we must have atleast 24 conventional submarines for our coastlines and 8 nuclear attack submarines and 6 nuclear ballistic missile submarines
     
  18. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    50,000cr deal for 6 subs: Govt invites bids from firms

    NEW DELHI: The ball has formally been set rolling for what will be India's biggest-ever defence project till now: the acquisition of six new-generation stealth submarines, with land-attack capabilities, for over Rs 50,000 crore.

    The government has now issued a global request for information (RFI) to armament majors to submit their initial offers by the end of this month for the six submarines to be constructed under 'Project-75 India'. This comes after the Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC), chaired by defence minister A K Antony, cleared P-75I in June, as was first reported by TOI. The gigantic naval project will clearly overtake the Rs 42,000 crore project to procure 126 multi-role fighters for IAF, so far dubbed the "mother of all defence deals", which is in the final selection phase now.

    Under P-75I, while two submarines will be imported from the foreign collaborator's shipyard, the other four will be built indigenously under transfer of technology. Three of these will be constructed at Mazagon Docks (MDL) in Mumbai, and the fourth at Hindustan Shipyard Ltd (HSL) in Visakhapatnam.

    MDL is already engaged in building six French Scorpene submarines under Project-75, currently valued at Rs 23,562 crore, which incidentally is running three years behind the 2012-2017 schedule set for it earlier. "Giving one submarine to HSL under P-75I is clearly aimed at establishing a robust second submarine line there, in addition to MDL, for future projects like P-76," said a senior official.

    Interestingly, the RFI says the foreign collaborator has to specify the air-independent propulsion (AIP) being offered for the project. Conventional diesel-electric submarines have to surface every few days to get oxygen to recharge their batteries. But with AIP systems, they can stay submerged for much longer periods, narrowing the gap with nuclear-powered submarines which can operate underwater for virtually unlimited periods.

    50,000cr deal for 6 subs: Govt invites bids from firms - The Times of India
     
  19. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    India to Select Foreign / Private Shipyard Collaborator for Project 75I

    Under the Project 75I plans approved by the DAC, three of the submarines would be built by Mazagon Docks, while one would be built by Hindustan Shipyard.

    The remaining two submarines would be either built at the foreign collaborator shipyard or at a private Indian shipyard that the Defence Ministry would identify in the future.

    The Indian private shipyard would have to enter into an agreement with the foreign collaborator for technology transfer and assistance in building the two submarines under the project.

    Through the RFI, the Indian Navy has requested information from firms, who have independently designed and constructed a complete modern conventional submarine that is currently in service or undergoing sea trials.

    The Navy expects the submarine to be capable of operating in open ocean, littoral and shallow waters in dense anti-submarine warfare and electronic warfare environment and also undertake anti-surface, anti-submarine warfare missions. Other missions the submarine would be expected to be capable of would be Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR), special forces and mining operations.

    The Navy would be looking at submarines that have Air Independent Propulsion system and low signatures, apart from all conventional weapons systems including torpedo, missiles and decoys.

    India to Select Foreign / Private Shipyard Collaborator for Project 75I | India Defence
     
  20. nitesh

    nitesh Mob Control Manager Stars and Ambassadors

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    By seeing the RFP it seems that IN does not want SSk to have VLS launchers. It can be safely assumed now that this task will remain with nuclear subs only.

    Is it possible to launch BrahMos with torpedo tubes (650 mm tubes)? Will option be there to integrate nirbhay at alter stages?
     

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