Project-75I class SSK Submarines

[binayak95]

8 billion dollars is indeed a bit excessive considering it is a small submarine of 1.5-2 ton. Also, even France which sells scorpene to others, does not use diesel submarnes itself. It operates nuclear submarines only. So, you have a point in stating that nuclear SSN should be used instead of diesel SSK. However, for Indian usage, the area is mainly Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal which are not big areas. So, the requirement of endurance does not arise. Stealth matters more here. This is where diesel submarines trump.



If P75I is also an imported project like P75, whereby France sells most of the parts, I don't see the problem in privatising the project. If MDL is doing it, I expect it to be fully indigenous. Otherwise, there is no point in calling MDL as experienced. If the manufacturing and construction is not indigenous, there is no point for calling something as indigenous.


This is just false news. If the entire submarine manufacturing is done in India, the cost will not be counted in dollars. Also, the cost will depend on the scale of manufacturing.

Also, I don't seem to unerstand how a diesel submarine that is just 1.5-2 tonnes in weight cost similar to a nuclear submarine that weighs 6tonnes.

I don't expect you to understand why MDL is the best bet to build the 75I subs. Because amateurs like you know nothing of history.
Kalvari is not the first ssk to be built in India. That honour goes to INS Shalki which was commissioned back in 1992. Your average ship building crew cannot build a submarine. The skillset required are much different and more complex especially when it comes to error tolerances and margins. Mdl trained a crew from scratch to build subs for the HDW Type 209 project. The crew built the Shankul too. Then the line was left to rot. The crew moved on to shipyards in the middle East. Then when scorpene project rolled in, MDL was forced to repeat the whole process again. Now that 75 is winding down, it would be prudent to not repeat the whole fuck up again, no?

As far as costs are concerned, the 8 billion USD include lifetime maintenance and spares. Including the costs of mid life refits. And why in USD? Because that is the internationally accepted currency. It's an exhibit of Indian spending abilities. A kind of advertisment of our wealth. I'm sure you'd love to see the USD replaced by the yuan, but that's not gonna happen.

 

[Kshithij]

I don't expect you to understand why MDL is the best bet to build the 75I subs. Because amateurs like you know nothing of history.
Kalvari is not the first ssk to be built in India. That honour goes to INS Shalki which was commissioned back in 1992. Your average ship building crew cannot build a submarine. The skillset required are much different and more complex especially when it comes to error tolerances and margins. Mdl trained a crew from scratch to build subs for the HDW Type 209 project. The crew built the Shankul too. Then the line was left to rot. The crew moved on to shipyards in the middle East. Then when scorpene project rolled in, MDL was forced to repeat the whole process again. Now that 75 is winding down, it would be prudent to not repeat the whole fuck up again, no?

As far as costs are concerned, the 8 billion USD include lifetime maintenance and spares. Including the costs of mid life refits. And why in USD? Because that is the internationally accepted currency. It's an exhibit of Indian spending abilities. A kind of advertisment of our wealth. I'm sure you'd love to see the USD replaced by the yuan, but that's not gonna happen.

Yes, I know that in 1992-1995 India built a few submarines. However, they were still imported from Germany and assembled in India. I understand the need to maintain the expertise and hence continue the orders of submarine. But, what I intend to say is that the submarines henceforth must be made in India fully, not imported and assembled from France.

If the submarine is imported from France, then the project is better transferred to private shipyard to build larger workforce of submarine manufacturing. The MDL can then be used to make SSN or overhaul the current submarine fleet to make them fit for service for the nest 15 years to maintain expertise. By doing so, we will be getting maximum expertise for minimum forex expenditure. Since France is the technology partner, France will teach the new shipyard about submarine manufacturing and hence get India a new set of skilled people while the skill of MDL will still stay as MDL will be overhauling submarines and /or making new SSN. In addition we will also have skilled people in Visakhapatnam's shipyard.

However, if we are not importing anything from France for P75I, then France will not teach our shipyards or skill our workers. Hence India is better off continuing in MDL and then slowly expand the skilled workforce incrementally and eventually transfer them to othe shipyards.

My main point of concern is UNDERUTILISATION of FOREIGN EXCHANGE. I want maximum bang for the buck. I personally don't like importing even a nut and bolt from France or any other country. However, i the import is necessary, then better use it for maximum utility.

 

[Screambowl]

SSN bhi chahiye aur paisa bhi nahi hai yeh toh haal hai BC

 

[Armand2REP]

Come to think of it 8 billion for 6 subs is a complete waste of money. Scrap it and make it all SSN's. 12 in all instead of these useless SSK's.

You underestimate the true cost of operating a fleet of nuclear submarines. The UK programme cost for the Trident replacement is £41bn for only four subs. The reason few countries have them isn't because they can't make it, they can't afford it. The Russian naval budget is crippled because all of their procurement money is going into a beleaguered nuke programme whose cost spirals never end.

 

[veerJI]

SSN bhi chahiye aur paisa bhi nahi hai yeh toh haal hai BC

abey chutiya hai kya, tu bhikhari hai,..BC.
Goi nhi..

 

[Spectre]

'' Researches in remote control started in 60's at Central Research Institute for Automatics and Hydraulics (Moscow). "A wire line was adopted basing on simultaneous doubled paying out of cable from two spools located in torpedo and towed by a submarine. Such telecontrol system was applied in SET-53M type torpedo commissioned in 1969 under the index TEST-68. In 1971 torpedo TEST-71 was designed on the basis of more advanced torpedo SET-65; then – torpedo TEST-71M and helicopter-based remote-controlled torpedo VTT-1 on the basis of torpedo AT-1" ("60 years of CRI Gidropribor", St. Petersburg, 2003).

In contrast to western telecontrol systems providing both directional and depth control of several torpedoes for maximum consideration of hydrology, decreasing of torpedo's noise, and alteration of target class (for example, while submarine's "dolphin jump" surfacing), telecontrol system of our Projects 641B and 877 diesel electric subs provided only horizontal guidance of only one torpedo. Submarine-towed telecontrol spool is still used. Influence of water currents on torpedo's speed leads to spool curling and wire breakage. Application of long conducting ropes to decrease this effect excludes use of telecontrol at shallow depths and makes multiple launches impossible.

Late 60's Western designers developed umbilical telecontrol spool; after launch, it remained on breech door of torpedo tube. Cable slippage was provided by protective "hose" to compensate submarine's post-launch maneuvering. Umbilical telecontrol enabled to increase reliability of cable connection, reduce limitations in speed and maneuvers, and ensure multiple launches including those at shallow depths. Consequently, torpedo weapons became more effective, and distances between launch site and targets were significantly increased.

In 70's Soviet Union also had everything to adopt umbilical spools; however, the Navy hindered that innovation. The necessity of post-launch removing a spool and a "hose" from torpedo tube required manual operations. Navy Technical Development Plan involved automatic reload of torpedo tubes which was possible only with towed spool. So, the Navy rejected "hose" telecontrol systems; moreover, it was widely believed that "we don't need it", since our subs and torpedoes were less silent and so forth. USET-80, basic torpedo of 3rd generation nuclear submarines had never obtained homing system prescribed in Technical Development Plan.

By the way, in real conditions even brief telecontrol considerably increases effectiveness of torpedo launch against submarine; moreover, successful launch against surface ships performing anti-torpedo zigzag maneuvers at a distance over 11-13 km is possible only with telecontrol. The main thing is that up to mid-80's telecontrol remained the only effective interference resistance method in conditions of high sonar countermeasure. Till early 80's there were no homing systems with required interference resistance worldwide. So to provide effective fire, the US Navy has been using telecontrol as indispensable condition since 50's; their surface ships are equipped with broad range of ASW means to maintain capability of multiple attacks upon submarines.

All Western heavy torpedoes and even new Chinese torpedoes use umbilical telecontrol. Towed spool applied in our torpedoes is a 50-year old rudiment. In fact, this places Russian subs in the crosshairs of enemy's weapons having much more effective firing range.

The situation is that, for example, none of Russian torpedoes presented at international defense show IMDS-2009 had umbilical telecontrol spool, even the most advanced UGST! Only towed spools... ''



This is an extract from an article i found online, it discusses the flaws of Russian torpedoes. Since a majority of our torpedoes are Russian, are our torpedoes too limited by the same problems?

If our torpedoes are limited by the same problem, what procedures/tactics are used to minimise this handicap?

Also, are the Ship and sub launched versions of the varunastra limited by the same problem?



Article source
http://rusnavy.com/science/weapons/underseaweapon/index.php?print=Y&ei=i2n01bwm&lc=en-IN&s=1&m=681&host=www.google.co.in&ts=1475580932&sig=AF9Nedntole3bdSEbMPSNWWXrk7x8EwIPA

 

[Spectre]

Come to think of it 8 billion for 6 subs is a complete waste of money. Scrap it and make it all SSN's. 12 in all instead of these useless SSK's.

We need ssn's to defend our CBG's. In this role ssn's may not be able to do a good job due to their low endurance. A ssk may be tailed from port (or from the position where it surfaces to recharge its batteries) till the CBG thus leading to its discovery.

 

[WolfPack86]

Russia has offered the Amur-class submarine for the Indian Navy’s P75(I) program for the indigenous construction of six conventional submarines and is pitching an indigenization level of 80 percent. They will bid with L&T.
https://twitter.com/indiandefencera?lang=en

 

[binayak95]

Russia has offered the Amur-class submarine for the Indian Navy’s P75(I) program for the indigenous construction of six conventional submarines and is pitching an indigenization level of 80 percent. They will bid with L&T.
https://twitter.com/indiandefencera?lang=en

Old news. They always had this on the table simply because they don't have the funds to build some themselves. IN chutiya Nahi hai ! No more russkie maal in India.

 

[Immanuel]

It's a real damn shame when private players create capacities to build and then have to shut down due to piss poor decision making. How easy would it be to put the same 8 billion on having a modied Arihant based diesel eletric sub with AIP, I bet we could easily have around 7-8 subs for the same price. There seems to be plenty of capacity to build.

This whole P-75I project is silly, they should have just ordered 3-6 more Scorpene.

 

[Armand2REP]

It's a real damn shame when private players create capacities to build and then have to shut down due to piss poor decision making. How easy would it be to put the same 8 billion on having a modied Arihant based diesel eletric sub with AIP, I bet we could easily have around 7-8 subs for the same price. There seems to be plenty of capacity to build.

This whole P-75I project is silly, they should have just ordered 3-6 more Scorpene.

They won't have to create new capacities at Mazagon Dock as it has already been nominated for P-75I.

https://www.thehindubusinessline.co...-b-p75i-submarine-project/article23416551.ece

To turn an SSBN into a diesel electric sub is madness, having a sub that big running on batteries would be a snail.

 

[Kshithij]

Old news. They always had this on the table simply because they don't have the funds to build some themselves. IN chutiya Nahi hai ! No more russkie maal in India.

Russia has enough money for themselves. Considering that they have as much oil as Saudi Arabia does and largest Natural Gas reserves, largest amount of other natural resource- be it minerals, metals, rare earth metals, water or Timber. Russia also has quite advanced technology and hence is capable of being self sufficient,

I don't see a reason why you would say that Russia does not have money to build it themselves. This is an upgraded Kilo Class submarine. I don't understand why you would ask for non-Russian items.

As far as I see, India needs technology to make our own items. If we are going to get technology from Russia, then what is the problem in using that? The indigenous content of Scorpene is just 50-60%.

It's a real damn shame when private players create capacities to build and then have to shut down due to piss poor decision making. How easy would it be to put the same 8 billion on having a modied Arihant based diesel eletric sub with AIP, I bet we could easily have around 7-8 subs for the same price. There seems to be plenty of capacity to build.

This whole P-75I project is silly, they should have just ordered 3-6 more Scorpene.

That was the case in the past but not anymore. Also, the submarine design for diesel submarine must not be 6000tonnes as Arihant. That is excessively large size. It is perfectly possible to go for full indigenous production but there is a need for interim orders of 3-4 submarines to keep the workers employed before going fully indigenous

They won't have to create new capacities at Mazagon Dock as it has already been nominated for P-75I.

https://www.thehindubusinessline.co...-b-p75i-submarine-project/article23416551.ece

To turn an SSBN into a diesel electric sub is madness, having a sub that big running on batteries would be a snail.

Kilo Class submarines were 3000tonnes. So, the Amur class is not much different. India already operates Kilo class submarines in large numbers and this Amur class will not be anything new

 

[binayak95]

Russia has enough money for themselves. Considering that they have as much oil as Saudi Arabia does and largest Natural Gas reserves, largest amount of other natural resource- be it minerals, metals, rare earth metals, water or Timber. Russia also has quite advanced technology and hence is capable of being self sufficient,

I don't see a reason why you would say that Russia does not have money to build it themselves. This is an upgraded Kilo Class submarine. I don't understand why you would ask for non-Russian items.

Bhai. Have you seen the state of Russian economy? Net external debt: $527 billion as of June last year! The Oil that you talk about does Russia no good since oil prices globally are falling and Western-led sanctions have crippled Russian exports. If they had the money, they wouldn't have gone so far as to threaten us with Chinese involvement in the PAK-FA program.

And Amur class is far from being mature. They are using this occasion to develop a new class of SSKs for themselves - if the Amur had been matured, they would be building some, not Yasen class SSNs and upgraded 877EKMs.

As far as I see, India needs technology to make our own items. If we are going to get technology from Russia, then what is the problem in using that? The indigenous content of Scorpene is just 50-60%.

Problem is when we are buying tech from Russia, all we are doing is subsidising China's military! The same tech, developed with Indian money later gets bought by China! Two cases in point - the Su-30SM and the Su-35S and the MiG 29K! Hell, the MiG 29K was a DEAD program, it was our money that restarted it!

in every single project since the Soviet collapse, we've been cheated and backstabbed by the russkies. INS Vikramaditya, the Sukhoi program, the T-90 deal. Every SINGLE time. Haven't we had enough?

 

[Armand2REP]

Kilo Class submarines were 3000tonnes. So, the Amur class is not much different. India already operates Kilo class submarines in large numbers and this Amur class will not be anything new

He said turning Arihant into an SSK which displaces 6,600 tonnes. That is why I said it is madness.

 

[Kshithij]

Bhai. Have you seen the state of Russian economy? Net external debt: $527 billion as of June last year! The Oil that you talk about does Russia no good since oil prices globally are falling and Western-led sanctions have crippled Russian exports. If they had the money, they wouldn't have gone so far as to threaten us with Chinese involvement in the PAK-FA program.

The sovereign debt is just $30 billion. The foreign exchange reserves is pretty high at 420 billion dollars and Russia has trade surplus. The remaining 490 billion dollar debt is from corporations and banks which is not exactly the headache of Russian government. Also, Russia has trade surplus of 200 billion dollars.

The 1998 crisis was nothing but an overhang of USSR collapse. USSR had to take loans from west due to increasing population of USSR and reluctance to cut down on standards of living of people despite having limited resources. The west controlled lot of resources and by means of alliance with Arabs, controlled over 70% of petroleum. Hence to protect the relation with client states, USSR borrowed from Europe. The low oil prices led to its collapse. That was continuing with Russia. But, with increased oil price after 2000, the situation improved and now Russian economy is robust.

It is understandable if Russia does not have Amur submarine but is simply selling it like Gripen. But if the design is ready, India better accept it. Or at least, India can negotiate ToT for Kilo Class submarines. 100% ToT for Kilo Class is better than 50% for Scorpene. Wars require both quantity and quality. Mere quality without quantity is not enough.

 

[Prashant12]

PSU Mazagon Dock Set to Bag $8 Billion Submarine Project as Private Units Struggle

New Delhi, April 26: Belying talk of involving the private sector in defence production, the government is all set to award the $8 billion advanced submarine order to the public sector Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd (MDL) on a "nomination basis".

Well-placed Defence Ministry sources told IANS that an announcement in this regard is expected soon. Under what is known as the "Project-75 India" programme, MDL, in collaboration with Naval Group of France, will build six advanced submarines.

MDL already has a partnership with the French firm under which it is currently building six Scorpene-class submarines - a project worth $3.75-billion.

Under the then Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, "Project-75 India" was supposed to be rolled out under the Strategic Partnership policy segment of the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) of 2016, which would have been a boon for private sector shipbuilders like Larsen & Toubro and Reliance Naval and Engineering.

But with new Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman overturning the decision and granting "Project-75 India" to MDL on a "nomination basis", both these companies, already in the red and struggling with almost non-existent order books, will suffer a severe blow.

The decision comes soon after French President Emmanuel Macron's visit to India when he was believed to have pushed for the project with Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

The Request for Information (RFI) document for "Project-75 India" was issued in 2016, and the government received responses from four companies or conglomerates: the French Naval Group, ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems of Germany, SAAB of Sweden, and Rubin Design Bureau-Amur Shipyard, a Russia-Italy collaboration.

In 2017, the Defence Ministry drafted Expressions of Interest (EoI) for private shipyards in India for selection as a strategic partner -- a move that was said to be aimed at creating efficient submarine-building capabilities in the private sector.

The six advanced submarines are equipped with API, or air-independent propulsion, technology and a vertical missile launch system. API allows these submarines to stay underwater for longer periods.

https://www.latestly.com/india/psu-...project-as-private-units-struggle-131517.html

 

[Kshithij]

PSU Mazagon Dock Set to Bag $8 Billion Submarine Project as Private Units Struggle

New Delhi, April 26: Belying talk of involving the private sector in defence production, the government is all set to award the $8 billion advanced submarine order to the public sector Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd (MDL) on a "nomination basis".

Well-placed Defence Ministry sources told IANS that an announcement in this regard is expected soon. Under what is known as the "Project-75 India" programme, MDL, in collaboration with Naval Group of France, will build six advanced submarines.

MDL already has a partnership with the French firm under which it is currently building six Scorpene-class submarines - a project worth $3.75-billion.

Under the then Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, "Project-75 India" was supposed to be rolled out under the Strategic Partnership policy segment of the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) of 2016, which would have been a boon for private sector shipbuilders like Larsen & Toubro and Reliance Naval and Engineering.

But with new Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman overturning the decision and granting "Project-75 India" to MDL on a "nomination basis", both these companies, already in the red and struggling with almost non-existent order books, will suffer a severe blow.

The decision comes soon after French President Emmanuel Macron's visit to India when he was believed to have pushed for the project with Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

The Request for Information (RFI) document for "Project-75 India" was issued in 2016, and the government received responses from four companies or conglomerates: the French Naval Group, ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems of Germany, SAAB of Sweden, and Rubin Design Bureau-Amur Shipyard, a Russia-Italy collaboration.

In 2017, the Defence Ministry drafted Expressions of Interest (EoI) for private shipyards in India for selection as a strategic partner -- a move that was said to be aimed at creating efficient submarine-building capabilities in the private sector.

The six advanced submarines are equipped with API, or air-independent propulsion, technology and a vertical missile launch system. API allows these submarines to stay underwater for longer periods.

https://www.latestly.com/india/psu-...project-as-private-units-struggle-131517.html

I don't understand how can private companies get any orders when they don't have any expertise. The expertise of MDL also would have gone waste as the people would have forgotten without continuous workload

 

[Narasimh]

I don't understand how can private companies get any orders when they don't have any expertise. The expertise of MDL also would have gone waste as the people would have forgotten without continuous workload

Unlike Aerospace PSUs, Naval shipyards have performed much better and Navy has a good hold on things including the design of the vessels. In this case private entities should be gradually given the work instead of Big Bang orders.

 

[Prashant12]

MDL may play lead role in building six advanced submarines for Navy

New Delhi, Jun 6 () The Defence Ministry is likely to finalise in the next few days the broad contours of Indian Navy's ambitious project to build six advanced submarines under the multi-billion P-75 (I) programme.

Sources said that the state-run Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd (MDL) is likely to be given the responsibility to implement the project as against the government's earlier indication that private shipbuilders would be involved in constructing the submarines.

A meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), defence ministry's highest decision-making body on procurement, is likely to deliberate extensively on the submarine project in the next few days, the sources said.

The government is seriously considering involving MDL in the nearly USD 8 billion project, they said.

Last year, the ministry had given indications that the six submarines would be built under the strategic partnership model with the involvement of private players.

The strategic partnership model was unveiled in May last year under which select private firms are to be roped in to build military platforms such as submarines and fighter jets in India in partnership with foreign entities.

Six Scorpene-class submarines are currently being built under 'Project 75' of the Indian Navy. The submarines, designed by French firm Naval Group, are being built by the Mazagon Dock Limited in Mumbai.

The project P-75 (I) will be a follow-on for Project 75.


https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...-submarines-for-navy/articleshow/64484442.cms

 

[undeadmyrmidon]

MDL may play lead role in building six advanced submarines for Navy

New Delhi, Jun 6 () The Defence Ministry is likely to finalise in the next few days the broad contours of Indian Navy's ambitious project to build six advanced submarines under the multi-billion P-75 (I) programme.

Sources said that the state-run Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd (MDL) is likely to be given the responsibility to implement the project as against the government's earlier indication that private shipbuilders would be involved in constructing the submarines.

A meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), defence ministry's highest decision-making body on procurement, is likely to deliberate extensively on the submarine project in the next few days, the sources said.

The government is seriously considering involving MDL in the nearly USD 8 billion project, they said.

Last year, the ministry had given indications that the six submarines would be built under the strategic partnership model with the involvement of private players.

The strategic partnership model was unveiled in May last year under which select private firms are to be roped in to build military platforms such as submarines and fighter jets in India in partnership with foreign entities.

Six Scorpene-class submarines are currently being built under 'Project 75' of the Indian Navy. The submarines, designed by French firm Naval Group, are being built by the Mazagon Dock Limited in Mumbai.

The project P-75 (I) will be a follow-on for Project 75.


https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...-submarines-for-navy/articleshow/64484442.cms

So 6 more Scorpenes then..............................................