Project-17A Nilgiri-class Frigate Thread

[Bhurki]

BrahMos has a very low approach profile 3-4 m above sea level. Unless you have specific radar complexes designed to look out for cruise missiles, even Patriot SAM batteries can't help you. Case in point.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...aftermath-of-the-saudi-oil-facilities-attacks

https://web.archive.org/web/20130805213356/http://brahmos.com/content.php?id=10&sid=10

Even then your reaction time is a fraction of that of a subsonic missile. Is it a coincidence that the US operationalized the SM6 as an AsHM?

https://defencyclopedia.com/2015/07...t-2-arleigh-burke-vs-daring-class-destroyers/

If it travels all the distance at 3-4 m , then the range will be just 40-50% of original (120km in 300km version, 200km in 500km version) due to thick atmosphere .
Read my comment again..
I added all three profiles..
H-H-L (300km)
H-L-L (100km in high, 100 km in low)
L-L-L(150 km in low)

 

[Bhurki]

BrahMos also has steep dive in the newer version which makes it a carrier or a capital ship killer against the enemy

Steep dive means it'll be coming in high and then dive right on target..
Which does increase terminal speed but also increases response time by defender considerably.. If it travels at high altitude all the way, it'll essentially be visible to the defender for entire flight path(300 seconds) while in hugging terrain it leaves only 20 seconds to react, but with only 120-150 km of total range.. Steep dive is actually used by subsonic missiles with high ranges, so that their hit prob increases.. On brahmos it'll be an overkill..
It'll be better if they can just increase the range upto Oniks level..

 

[vampyrbladez]

If it travels all the distance at 3-4 m , then the range will be just 40-50% of original (120km in 300km version, 200km in 500km version) due to thick atmosphere .
Read my comment again..
I added all three profiles..
H-H-L (300km)
H-L-L (100km in high, 100 km in low)
L-L-L(150 km in low)

It has a dive profile as and when the situation arises. The range of BrahMos is now between 450 - 800 Km so factor that in as well.

 

[Bhurki]

It has a dive profile as and when the situation arises. The range of BrahMos is now between 450 - 800 Km so factor that in as well.

450 km is actually confirmed by a recent test. But i don't think it can achieve anymore than that without significant change in body specfication, engine.
Reason being that p800 with the same dimensions does 800 km and 2 Mach. Certainly the TSFC increases when increasing speed to 3 Mach, as the ramjet is the upgrade of the same one on Oniks.
The range was blocked to 290 km purposefully due to MTCR by blocking the fuel tank spaces with other mechanical components and differences in warhead bay. Now that has been maximized, it'll be hard to move forward with this chassis.

 

[vampyrbladez]

450 km is actually confirmed by a recent test. But i don't think it can achieve anymore than that without significant change in body specfication, engine.
Reason being that p800 with the same dimensions does 800 km and 2 Mach. Certainly the TSFC increases when increasing speed to 3 Mach, as the ramjet is the upgrade of the same one on Oniks.
The range was blocked to 290 km purposefully due to MTCR by blocking the fuel tank spaces with other mechanical components and differences in warhead bay. Now that has been maximized, it'll be hard to move forward with this chassis.

"India has successfully test-fired a vertical deep dive version of BrahMos, the world's fastest supersonic cruise missile, that can now change the dynamics of conventional warfare... The upgraded version of the missile with enhanced range of up to 500 km is also ready," he said.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.econ...rahmos-aerospace/amp_articleshow/70117273.cms

The original range of the missile was 290 kms in line with the limitations of the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR). After India joined the grouping in June 2016, the range was extended to 450 kms and is to be further extended to 600kms.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...ested-in-three-years/article26333335.ece/amp/

P 800 Onik's range has been upgraded to 800 km.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...os-missile-ancestor-to-have-km-range.amp.html

Similar plans were also seen with regards to the BrahMos missiles.

According to Sudhir Kumar Mishra, the Distinguished Scientist & Director General and CEO & MD of BrahMos Aerospace, the technique to extend the range of BrahMos missile to 800 km exists and once the defence company gets the go-ahead, then it can start work on the same.

https://zeenews.india.com/india/bra...personic-version-being-developed-2230891.html

 

[aarav]

Steep dive means it'll be coming in high and then dive right on target..
Which does increase terminal speed but also increases response time by defender considerably.. If it travels at high altitude all the way, it'll essentially be visible to the defender for entire flight path(300 seconds) while in hugging terrain it leaves only 20 seconds to react, but with only 120-150 km of total range.. Steep dive is actually used by subsonic missiles with high ranges, so that their hit prob increases.. On brahmos it'll be an overkill..
It'll be better if they can just increase the range upto Oniks level..

I am more precisely talking about the S maneuver ,first sea skimming then top attack & steep dive

 

[Bhurki]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.econ...rahmos-aerospace/amp_articleshow/70117273.cms



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...ested-in-three-years/article26333335.ece/amp/

P 800 Onik's range has been upgraded to 800 km.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...os-missile-ancestor-to-have-km-range.amp.html

Similar plans were also seen with regards to the BrahMos missiles.



https://zeenews.india.com/india/bra...personic-version-being-developed-2230891.html

So the same missile body will support 3/2 times the speed(2M for oniks,3M for brahmos), meaning 2.25 times the kinetic energy with the same amount of fuel ?
Either the engine should get 225% efficient or the weight should increase to hold 225% more fuel...

 

[Bhurki]

I am more precisely talking about the S maneuver ,first sea skimming then top attack & steep dive

Thats not how steep dive works.. If an oncoming missile suddenly increases height, it staves off massive energy and decreases speed which only become easier for defender to shoot.. The s manuevers happen horozontaly.. However steep dive involves a sub sonic weapon diving at the last moment to achieve temporary speed advantage over defender.

 

[vampyrbladez]

So the same missile body will support 3/2 times the speed(2M for oniks,3M for brahmos), meaning 2.25 times the kinetic energy with the same amount of fuel ?
Either the engine should get 225% efficient or the weight should increase to hold 225% more fuel...

BrahMos Ramjet Engine is more efficient than P 800 one. The rated speed on BrahMos is M 2.8 - M 3.0 vis - a -vis M 2.5 in Yakhont. Also the BrahMos uses a different flight profile and S approach algorithm with respect to the Yakhont.

 

[Bhurki]

BrahMos Ramjet Engine is more efficient than P 800 one. The rated speed on BrahMos is M 2.8 - M 3.0 vis - a -vis M 2.5 in Yakhont. Also the BrahMos uses a different flight profile and S approach algorithm with respect to the Yakhont.

Different flight profile? As in?
Also, i don't think S manuever has much effect on the overall range since its performed at the very terminal stage, last few seconds..

 

[aarav]

Thats not how steep dive works.. If an oncoming missile suddenly increases height, it staves off massive energy and decreases speed which only become easier for defender to shoot.. The s manuevers happen horozontaly.. However steep dive involves a sub sonic weapon diving at the last moment to achieve temporary speed advantage over defender.

Here is BrahMos MD talking about it's steep dive capability and that it gives it vast advantage against a aircraft carrier or capital ships

 

[vampyrbladez]

Different flight profile? As in?
Also, i don't think S manuever has much effect on the overall range since its performed at the very terminal stage, last few seconds..

You fly at a higher altitude when in uncontested space. Make short Hi - Lo terrain hugging profile in enemy territory. Do a dive to 10 m for last couple miles, progressively reduce it to 3 - 4 m and at the last minute, pop up and do an S maneuver against countermeasures and SAM systems before diving into the target. Remember the BrahMos is a cruise missile and can maneuver pretty much as an aircraft so it can adjust flight profiles based on threat algorithms and data inputs via inertial navigation system, satellite navigation using GLONASS, GPS, GAGAN and data-links ; the active radar homing is used in the terminal stage.

The BrahMos is a M 3 class missile and the majority of the damage is the raw kinetic energy itself ((1/2)mv^2) with the shaped charge warhead as the final knockout punch!

The high speed of the BrahMos likely gives it better target-penetration characteristics than lighter subsonic cruise-missiles such as the Tomahawk. Being twice as heavy and almost four times faster than the Tomahawk, the BrahMos has almost 32 times the initial kinetic energy of a Tomahawk missile (although it pays for this by having only 3/5 the payload and a fraction of the range despite weighting twice as much, suggesting a different tactical paradigm).

http://www.pravdareport.com/russia/106153-russian_missiles/

The range issue was limited by the MCTR which has now been resolved.

 

[Bhurki]

You fly at a higher altitude when in uncontested space. Make short Hi - Lo terrain hugging profile in enemy territory. Do a dive to 10 m for last couple miles, progressively reduce it to 3 - 4 m and at the last minute,

This is literally what i mentioned in the High-low-low profile with 30% range drop couple comments ago..
Anyways, i guess we have dragged it quite a bit.. Nice discussion though...

 

[vampyrbladez]

This is literally what i mentioned in the High-low-low profile with 30% range drop couple comments ago..
Anyways, i guess we have dragged it quite a bit.. Nice discussion though...

Most of it is in the high profile. It essentially acts as a glider till it climbs down, weaving between "go" and "no -go" zones. The range drop is minimal depending on which profile you choose.

 

[Bhurki]

Most of it is in the high profile. It essentially acts as a glider till it climbs down, weaving between "go" and "no -go" zones. The range drop is minimal depending on which profile you choose.

If any of the last 100 km is in high profile, it loses its stealth completely due line of sight.. Even while maintaining 1km of altitude.
If it flies at just 3 km height.. The line of sight doubles to 200 km..
I dont consider being at higher altitude any farther than 200 km a problem since radar returns will be small enough to not cue a missile on it.
If it flies at said altitude of 15km, it will be visible to any radar in a 430 km radius if its powerful enough( ground systems).
This is all calculated assuming defender's radar at ground level.

 

[vampyrbladez]

If any of the last 100 km is in high profile, it loses its stealth completely due line of sight.. Even while maintaining 1km of altitude.
If it flies at just 3 km height.. The line of sight doubles to 200 km..
I dont consider being at higher altitude any farther than 200 km a problem since radar returns will be small enough to not cue a missile on it.
If it flies at said altitude of 15km, it will be visible to any radar in a 430 km radius if its powerful enough( ground systems).

Which is why the BrahMos moves at M 3. You have less time to make visual observations. Most ground radars are concentrated around hardened installations.You can simply alter your flight path like an aircraft away from these clusters that you can map using their emissions. Even overlapping FoV have blind spots due to terrain, altitude and even atmospheric pressure resulting in false returns due to cloud formations. Adjust altitude as required and duck and weave between the blind spots.

 

[binayak95]

Please give link for your claim that BAE naval gun will be used instead of Oto Malera.

It will be 127mm BAE guns, rest assured. Some 12 have been ordered, to be spread between the P17A, the P15B and INS Dronacharya (Gunnery school)

 

[uoftotaku]

It will be 127mm BAE guns, rest assured. Some 12 have been ordered, to be spread between the P17A, the P15B and INS Dronacharya (Gunnery school)

Kolkata class will also get retrofitted during their MLU dockings. Mountings have the necessary space and strengthening

 

[aarav]

Showing the steep dive version being tested

 

[Prashant12]

GRSE lays keel of Navy's second stealth frigate

Kolkata, Jan 24 (PTI) The Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers Limited (GRSE) on Friday laid the keel of the second of three advanced stealth frigates it is building for the Indian Navy, an official said here.

The keel is the lengthwise structure along the base of a ship, supporting the framework of the whole.

Vice Chief of Naval Staff (VCNS), Vice Admiral G Ashok Kumar commended the city-based Defence PSU for its commitment in providing maintenance support to the ships built by it.

'GRSE can be proud of its achievements as it continues to build complex ships under stringent timelines,' he said in his address during the keel laying ceremony.

The officer said the Indian Navy and Indian Coast Guard are on a growth path, thus boding well for the shipyard's future wherein quality ships are expected on time.

The keel laying for the second frigate was achieved ahead of schedule, a GRSE official said.

The contract of Rs 19,294 crore for construction of three highly advanced stealth frigates under Project 17A is the largest ever order won by the company, the official said.

The contract was signed between the Ministry of Defence and GRSE on February 20, 2015.

The first ship is expected to be delivered in 2023 and the next two ships in 2024 and 2025 respectively, the official said.

P17A ships are state-of-the-art guided missile frigates, each of which is 149 metres long, with displacement of approximately 6,670 tonnes and a speed of 28 knots.

These frigates are being built deploying the latest integrated construction methodology with enhanced pre- outfitting to enhance quality and reduce build periods considerably, the official said. PTI AMR NN NN

https://in.news.yahoo.com/grse-lays-keel-navys-second-135817040.html