Prince Rurik's real ancestry

[pmaitra]

What is the source of this map?

I see some inaccuracies and omissions in the quoted map. All alternative hypotheses are also theories.

Most of the Scandinavian Peninsula (east of the Gulf of Bothnia), around 8th and 9th centuries, according to the map below, was inhabited by the Vikings, and not by the Finno-Ugric tribes. The red blot to the east between the green and orange zones is where Prince Rurik landed the first time, to be eventually defeated by the Slavs and sent back to Scandinavian Peninsula.

Spoiler

Source: Vikings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

The Finno-Ugric languages developed this way (of course, this is a reconstruction by linguists, and this is believed to be the path of migration of the Finno-Ugric people):

Spoiler

Source: The first Norwegian, or why are we here? or What is the difference between Finnish and Hungarian? - Esato archive​

The quoted map shows Finno-Ugric people's land ending abruptly at the Ural Mountains in an almost straight line. This is certainly false. The Finno-Ugric lands begin at the top of the Gulf of Bothnia and end up into the middle of North-Central Asia:

Spoiler

Source: https://aratta.wordpress.com/2013/11/23/ugrians-and-the-bashkirs/​

Apart from that, the individual nations marked or omitted are as follows:

• Mordvins are Volga Finns.
• Bashkortostan was historically inhabited by Finno-Ugric tribes, although, there have been Turkic migrations later on.
• Udmurtiya, the home of the AK-47, was also inhabited by Finno-Ugric tribes.
• Magyars are a Finno-Ugric tribe that migrated from the Urals all the way to where Hungary today is. See spoiler below.
  
  Spoiler

  

  
  Source: Magyar origins - History Forum ~ All Empires - Page 2​

Generic studies and linguistic studies together can shed light on what might have been the distribution of the Finno-Ugric tribes. Today, most of the Finno-Ugric people live within the Russian Federation, with isolated pockets in Asia and Europe, who themselves have been diluted due to contact with other ethnicities.

 

[jouni]

Large Russian survey:

"Russians are not Slavs, but Russian speaking Finns"

Лицо русской национальности, или крах популярной расологии

Russian scientists have for the first time in the history of research conducted unheard Russian gene pool - and were shocked by the results. Including this study fully confirmed expressed in our articles "Country Moksel» (№14) and "non-Russian Russian language» (№12) thought that the Russian - is not Slavs, but only Russian-speaking Finns. "Russian scientists have completed and prepared for publication of the first large-scale study of the gene pool of the Russian people. Publication of the results can have unpredictable consequences for Russia and the world order "

@pmaitra, sorry to shatter your worldview , remember to address me in the future as "Sir Jouni"

 

[jouni]

New Finnish study Agriculture came to Finland 7000 years ago, propably from China

Maanviljely levisi Suomeen Itä-Aasiasta jo 7000 vuotta sitten - Ajankohtaista - Tammikuu 2013 - Humanistinen tiedekunta - Helsingin yliopisto

 

[pmaitra]

Large Russian survey:

"Russians are not Slavs, but Russian speaking Finns"

Лицо русской национальности, или крах популярной расологии

Russian scientists have for the first time in the history of research conducted unheard Russian gene pool - and were shocked by the results. Including this study fully confirmed expressed in our articles "Country Moksel» (№14) and "non-Russian Russian language» (№12) thought that the Russian - is not Slavs, but only Russian-speaking Finns. "Russian scientists have completed and prepared for publication of the first large-scale study of the gene pool of the Russian people. Publication of the results can have unpredictable consequences for Russia and the world order "

@pmaitra, sorry to shatter your worldview , remember to address me in the future as "Sir Jouni"

You are going to shatter my world view with this article from this source?

In any case, does not change the fact Prince Rurik was a Viking.

No one denies that Russians are mixed with lot of different ethnicities, or that most of the Finno-Ugric lands are in Russia, but Russians are not Slavs? Slavic languages are closer to Sanskrit and quite different from Uralic languages.

Now, coming to your article, let me know when you find a link to the scientific publication, not some publication in some magazine. We'll talk then.

In the mean while, check this out: Confirmation Bias

 

[jouni]

The whole Viking Age Scandinavians raged and conquered countries and settlements both in the East and in the West, but never set up settlements in Finland (before 11th century), and were not able to conquer the land. They could do war parties and raids, but not the condition of expansion. This is because the 5th to the 9th century until the end of the entire west coast of Finland, and the river ways always from Hanko to South Ostrobothnia, was organized in the provinces of the region's common defense forces with forts, warning bonfires and chain of fortresses. Satakunta ( huntal ) system, as well as the existence of a wide defense forces requires the coordinated management, and historically the northern European tradition, at least a loose tribal king power.

Turjalaisen valtakunta: Suomen kristillinen varhaishistoria ja kuningasaika

 

[jouni]

It is possible Rurik had also Danish roots @pmaitra

Some historians believe he was the Danish king Skyldingien related to the representative of the Prince of Rügen island (now. Northern Germany). If this is true, the case is the DNA in the case of still more interesting, because Skyldingit were, on the basis of your own family tree, originating from the Norwegian kings, and thus Kvenland King Fornjot or "Kaleva"
Turjalaisen valtakunta: Suomen kristillinen varhaishistoria ja kuningasaika

 

[pmaitra]

It is possible Rurik had also Danish roots @pmaitra

Some historians believe he was the Danish king Skyldingien related to the representative of the Prince of Rügen island (now. Northern Germany). If this is true, the case is the DNA in the case of still more interesting, because Skyldingit were, on the basis of your own family tree, originating from the Norwegian kings, and thus Kvenland King Fornjot or "Kaleva"
Turjalaisen valtakunta: Suomen kristillinen varhaishistoria ja kuningasaika

The Vikings are believed to be an off-shoot of Teutons anyway, due to their similarity with the Germans (Teutons/Deutchen) in two ways:

• Linguistic
• Genetic

So, what you are saying is possibility.

 

[jouni]

The Vikings are believed to be an off-shoot of Teutons anyway, due to their similarity with the Germans (Teutons/Deutchen) in two ways:

• Linguistic
• Genetic

So, what you are saying is possibility.

You mean propability?

 

[pmaitra]

You mean propability?

Probability, yes. I think there is a very high probability that Danes and Swedes are cousins of the Germans.

 

[pmaitra]

"Russians are not Slavs, but Russian speaking Finns"

This is a well known that Russians are indeed Slavs, but let us look at genetic evidences:

The modern Slavic peoples carry a variety of Mitochondrial DNA haplogroups and Y-chromosome DNA haplogroups. Yet two paternal haplogroups predominate: R1a1a [M17] and I2a2a [L69.2=T/S163.2]. The frequency of Haplogroup R1a ranges from 63.39% in the Sorbs, through 56.4% in Poland, 54% in Ukraine, 52% in Russia, Belarus, to 15.2% in Republic of Macedonia, 14.7% in Bulgaria and 12.1% in Herzegovina.[86]

In 2008, biochemist Boris Abramovich Malyarchuk (Russian: Борис Абрамович Малярчук) et al. of the Institute of Biological Problems of the North, Russian Academy of Sciences, Magadan, Russia, used a sample (n=279) of Czech individuals to determine the frequency of "Mongoloid" "mtDNA lineages".[96] Malyarchuk found Czech mtDNA lineages were typical of "Slavic populations" with "1.8%" Mongoloid mtDNA lineage.[96] Malyarchuk added that "Slavic populations" "almost always" contain Mongoloid mtDNA lineage.[96] Malyarchuk said the Mongoloid component of Slavic people was partially added before the split of "Balto-Slavics" in 2,000–3,000 BC with additional Mongoloid mixture occurring among Slavics in the last 4,000 years.[96] Malyarchuk said the "Russian population" was developed by the "assimilation of the indigenous pre-Slavic population of Eastern Europe by true Slavs" with additional "assimilation of Finno-Ugric populations" and "long-lasting" interactions with the populations of "Siberia" and "Central Asia".[96] Malyarchuk said that other Slavs "Mongoloid component" was increased during the waves of migration from "steppe populations (Huns, Avars, Bulgars and Mongols)", especially the decay of the "Avar Khaganate".[96]

Haplogroup R1a Distribution

Areas of Slavic 'homeland', according to Mallory

Excerpts from Wiki article that further references other scientific research from various countries.

So, looks like Russians are descended from:

• Slavic Tribes
• Finno-Ugric Tribes
• Mongol/Tatar/Turkic Tribes

So far, this is the genetic evidence.

Now, if we include the linguistic evidence, this will further reinforce our conclusions that claims that "Russians are not Slavs" is false.

@Cadian, please correct me if I am wrong anywhere.

 

[Cadian]

This is a well known that Russians are indeed Slavs, but let us look at genetic evidences:

Haplogroup R1a Distribution

Areas of Slavic 'homeland', according to Mallory

Excerpts from Wiki article that further references other scientific research from various countries.

So, looks like Russians are descended from:

• Slavic Tribes
• Finno-Ugric Tribes
• Mongol/Tatar/Turkic Tribes

So far, this is the genetic evidence.

Now, if we include the linguistic evidence, this will further reinforce our conclusions that claims that "Russians are not Slavs" is false.

@Cadian, please correct me if I am wrong anywhere.

https://youtu.be/JRW7pCC_3q0?t=9m39s

Ethnic origin had always a little meaning for a man with Russian identity. On the other hand, you can see people such as Akim, ethnic Russian but with a "different" identity.

 

[apple]

Ethnic origin had always a little meaning for a man with Russian identity. On the other hand, you can see people such as Akim, ethnic Russian but with a "different" identity.

Thats, pretty much, the attitude of most of "the West" too. It's only people/ countries with an inferiority complex who are obsessed with ethniticy.

I love Finland. Am part Finnish and am living in Finland, at the moment. But yeah, having "complexes" seems an important part of Finn's identity.

Apologie's for mentioning Finnish people here, Jouni. Am sure you understand what I mean, so I'm not truly sorry. But, am sure you also understand how my comment will be misunderstood by most (or all) of this forum's users.

Well, misunderstood until Pmaitra deletes my comment

 

[jouni]

Thats, pretty much, the attitude of most of "the West" too. It's only people/ countries with an inferiority complex who are obsessed with ethniticy.

I love Finland. Am part Finnish and am living in Finland, at the moment. But yeah, having "complexes" seems an important part of Finn's identity.

Apologie's for mentioning Finnish people here, Jouni. Am sure you understand what I mean, so I'm not truly sorry. But, am sure you also understand how my comment will be misunderstood by most (or all) of this forum's users.

Well, misunderstood until Pmaitra deletes my comment

Yeah, we Finns have some complexies, but IMHO last years those have gotten less. After Nokia, 2 Ice Hockey Championships and Eurovision song contest win have done the trick. I think that Ukraine crisis has also showed us how good things are here and also that we have made right choices in the past. This Prince Rurik stuff is just fun for me. It is interesting to find these old signs of ancient Finnish Kingdom.

Also about complexes, sometimes some people try to hide their complexies under arrogance.

 

[apple]

Yeah, we Finns have some complexies, but IMHO last years those have gotten less. After Nokia, 2 Ice Hockey Championships and Eurovision song contest win have done the trick. I think that Ukraine crisis has also showed us how good things are here and also that we have made right choices in the past. This Prince Rurik stuff is just fun for me. It is interesting to find these old signs of ancient Finnish Kingdom.

Den gilder in ;-)

Did you see my post Pmaitra deleted? The story of Marja in the Kalevala, and Germanic language's short /a/, ä is a clear theft from Europe/Palestine.

If you're into that stuff there's a guy, Jouko Vahtola, who's been looking into references to Finland in Beowulf. In Finnish Uni circles, Vahtola's a borderline "lahtari". But, he's a legitimate historian and he' s done a lot of work on your subject.

 

[jouni]

Den gilder in ;-)

Did you see my post Pmaitra deleted? The story of Marja in the Kalevala, and Germanic language's short /a/, ä is a clear theft from Europe/Palestine.

If you're into that stuff there's a guy, Jouko Vahtola, who's been looking into references to Finland in Beowulf. In Finnish Uni circles, Vahtola's a borderline "lahtari". But, he's a legitimate historian and he' s done a lot of work on your subject.

Thanks, I will study Vahtola.

 

[jouni]

http://torshammer.eu/heathen-librar...ivilisation-anda-culture-along-the-waterways/

13.2 One person to seize upon this theme was J.A. Lindström, who assumed at first that the Russo-Varangians were in fact Finns, for the sagas spoke of Kings of Finland and the Finn’s own legends recounted ancient deeds of heroism. Admittedly, he was later obliged to replace the notion of Russo-Varangians originating from Finland with Goths.

13.3 When examining the history of the Baltic Finns in his doctoral thesis of 1894, A.H. Snellman (Virkkunen from 1906 onwards) regarded the Finns as having made considerable contribution to the early history of Russia; the new Varangian ruler had “settled first in Finnish territories”, the Finns played the most important role in the new nation, there was nothing to fear from the Slavs. It now seemed possible that the might of Russia was indeed Finnish. The center of gravity, however, moved further south.

Laffaren – Reconstruction of the fast going ancient Riverboat

13.4 The nationalist interpretations placed on Finnish history by Yrjö Koskinen in the late 1860`s emphasized the role of the Finns in the Varangian question as well, and it was again claimed that the most proficient element in the Varangian administration could well be assumed to have been Finnish. Correspondingly, it was only intermixing with the Finns that gave resilience to the Slavs.

Oulujoki Riverboat various sizes have allways been used in the River trade – Models hardly changed

 

[pmaitra]

Varangian = Swedish (North-East European)
Russians = Slavic (South-East European)
Finns = Finno-Ugric (Eurasian/Uralic)

End of story.

 

[jouni]

I have studied the expansion of the Russian Empire into Central Asia. To make it simple, it goes like this: fight, negotiate, fight, negotiate, fight, negotiate.

It is also very similar to how the Bolsheviks negotiated with various ethnic groups thus winning their support against Kolchak.

I don't think Russian modus operandi has diverged much, expect for a few cases of Soviet intervention in Eastern Europe.

Yes, Russian modus operandi has not changed since Ivan the Terrible. You might want to study the origins of Russia starting from eastern Rome and Byzanthine. That explains a lot of why they still remain underdeveloped and with corrupt society that vast majority of their population accept and even cheer.

 

[pmaitra]

Yes, Russian modus operandi has not changed since Ivan the Terrible. You might want to study the origins of Russia starting from eastern Rome and Byzanthine. That explains a lot of why they still remain underdeveloped and with corrupt society that vast majority of their population accept and even cheer.

You might want to study how the Vikings came to Lake Logoda and enslaved the Finno-Ugric tribes and how the Slavic tribes defeated and kicked Rurik and his fellow Vikings in the butt and sent them packing back to Roslagen, and saved your Finno-Ugric ancestors.

That explains your inferiority complex towards Russia.

Don't try to teach me history.

 

[gadeshi]

You might want to study how the Vikings came to Lake Logoda and enslaved the Finno-Ugric tribes and how the Slavic tribes defeated and kicked Rurik and his fellow Vikings in the butt and sent them packing back to Roslagen, and saved your Finno-Ugric ancestors.
That explains your inferiority complex towards Russia.
Don't try to teach me history.

Not Logoda, but Ladoga ("The Path of Lada" - love godess).
Rurick had been Russian knyaz from the northern lands (Variag). He is a beginner of the main Russian tzars dynasty and Kuzarim (Khazars) punisher and war-winner, who has taken Kiyev from them and make it Russian.
So, please be carefull with such a historic person