Possible sources of Emergency Fighters for PAF & IAF

[pankaj nema]

This is a very good thread

Why only Fighter Planes Why not Army and Naval Equipment too

 

[pankaj nema]

The MAIN question is that Will Islamic Nations Give FREE Equipment to Pakistan

Saudi Arabia ; UAE ; Iran and Turkey have NOT Helped Pakistan with even LOANS Recently

SO will Islamic Nations Give a FEW Billion Dollars worth of Equipment FREE

 

[pankaj nema]

Since we Now have accepted the REALITY of a TWO Front war We can Expect Liberal Chinese
Assistance to the Pakis

 

[pankaj nema]

Pakis are really being SHUNNED and Shooed away by their Friends when they go for Loans

So I really wonder how can some Islamic countries become SO Generous suddenly

In 2001 -02 Operation Parakram ONLY China Rushed in ONLY 500 MILLION Dollars worth of Supplies

 

[pankaj nema]

Even India has a Mutual Assistance Treaty with Russia which we INVOKED During 2001 -02 Crisis

It is another matter that The War did not start

But India did send a Special Envoy to Russia who was specifically sent for
Activating this treaty

 

[fulcrum]

^ yea. Good questions. But when the survival of pakistan is at stake maybe these countries will start to show their true colors and help their Islamic brother?

Also what amazes me is the amount of conspiracy by U.S and China during 1971. If MMS was the PM during 1971, he would have buckled under the pressure long ago.

-UN Ambassador Bush describes the December 10 meeting between Kissinger and the Chinese delegation to the United Nations. While discussing the India-Pakistan crisis, Kissinger reveals that the American position on the issue was parallel to that of the Chinese. Kissinger disclosed that the U.S. would be moving some ships into the area, and also that military aid was being sent from Jordan, Turkey, and Iran. Some of this aid was illegally transferred because it was American in origin. Bush also reports that Kissinger gives his tacit approval for China to provide militarily support for Pakistani operations against India. Bush expresses his personal doubts in the administration's "Two State Departments thing," and takes issue with Kissinger's style, in one instance calling him paranoid and arrogant.

-Henry Kissinger's duplicity to the press and toward the Indians vis-à-vis the Chinese. In July of 1971, while Kissinger was in India, he told Indian officials that "under any conceivable circumstance the U.S. would back India against any Chinese pressures." In that same July meeting Kissinger said, "In any dialogue with China, we would of course not encourage her against India." However, near the end of the India-Pakistan war, in a highly secret 12/10/1971 meeting with the Chinese Ambassador to the UN Huang Ha, Kissinger did exactly this encouraging the PRC to engage in the equivalent of military action against the Indians.


Some gems from the above document:
-The NSC Senior Review Group discusses the situation in East Pakistan and increasing tensions between India and Pakistan. The President indicates that "the big story is Pakistan," and he expresses his concern from the standpoint of human suffering. While Nixon suggests that some Indian and Pakistani interest might be served by war, it is not in American interests as "the new China relationship would be imperiled, probably beyond repair." While stating that the Indians are more "devious" than the "sometimes extremely stupid" Pakistanis, the U.S. "must not-cannot-allow" India to use the refugees as a pretext for breaking up Pakistan. Despite the conditions in the East, which Ambassador Blood described as "selective genocide," Nixon states that "We will not measure our relationship with the government in terms of what it has done in East Pakistan. By that criterion, we would cut off relations with every Communist government in the world because of the slaughter that has taken place in the Communist countries."

 

[Kunal Biswas]

PAF is helpless in war, JF-17 have no engines unless China have stocks of RD-33 or a clone of it..

Or they run JF-17 with some F7 ( Mig-21 ) Clone engine with some modifications..

 

[ejazr]

The MAIN question is that Will Islamic Nations Give FREE Equipment to Pakistan

Saudi Arabia ; UAE ; Iran and Turkey have NOT Helped Pakistan with even LOANS Recently

SO will Islamic Nations Give a FEW Billion Dollars worth of Equipment FREE

Well the only reason why Jordan and Iran helped Pakistan in 1971 was less to do with the "Islamic brotherhood" feelings and more to do with the fear of Communism taking oer South Asia. In their minds (US and US aligned monarchies in the ME), India was pretty much in the soveit bloc.

If you look at the more recent conflicts, like Kargil for example, the Saudis had flat out rejected any help to Pakistan and wanted Nawaz Sharif to withdraw back to the LoC. Hence, Nawaz Sharif ran to the US to effect a ceasefire.

More recently with the extremism and terrorism fallout comingout of Pakistan and the possible radicalisation withing the PakMil and ISI, the Gulf Arab countries are even more wary. You want hear these in public pronouncements but you can see it in their actions.Pak mil officers have been almost completely reduced to a token liason prescence and training of Saudi Mil has been taken over by US, UK and French and in some cases even Indian trainers. You can see the same play out in other GCC countries with for example refusal by GCC countries for something as simple as deferring oil payments or get discounted oil.

Most interesting of all is the views expressed in wikileak cables and see what the UAE, Saudis, Omanis e.t.c. have to say about Pakistan
Just to give you an idea, in this particular Wikileaked cable, the Saudis explain how they think 10 times before talking to the ISI
The Hindu : News / International : “We think 10 times before approaching ISI”

You also have cases were the Pakistani Mil /ISI have withdrawn landing rights for UAE in Balochistan for exampe because the UAE had passed this facility on to the Americans and was ebing used as a base for drones. FRom wikilekas we know that atleast the DG ISI believes that UAE alongwith India and Russia is partially responsible for funding the Baloch insurgency. It doesn't mean it is true, but atleast this is what the DG ISI wants the parliament and the people of Pakistan to believe
MPs told Russia, India and UAE involved in Baloch insurgency – The Express Tribune

The most interesting and frank discussion I found was of the Omani no.2. on Pakistan.

Cable Viewer

IRAN AND INDIA

¶6. (S) Oman is encouraging India to engage in the region diplomatically and politically. He said that as Iran wants to be seen as a regional power, Oman wants a balance of power and sees India possibly as that balance. India does not need to present a military presence, according to Sayyid Fahd, a political presence will do. He termed India as a reliable country and a reliable partner, and that India would contribute to regional stability and security.

PAKISTAN

¶7. (S) Sayyid Fahd said that Pakistan is quite a different issue. It is a large country "with so many fanatics." The social fabric and the cultural fabric are under real threat and Pakistan needs help, both material and psychological support from its friends. He continued, noting that the situation spreads beyond Pakistan's borders, citing the problem in Great Britain, with its substantial Pakistani population. Sorting out who is a fanatic, and who is
not, "is a big problem." It doesn't stop there, he noted, it spreads throughout Europe, as these Pakistanis are British, with freedom of travel.

All these developments are related to the last 4-5 years and indicates the GCC a slow withdrawing from Pakistan and if Pakistan gets closer to Iran as it has been doing for the past 2-3 years, you can expect even more visible changes in policy. The biggest fear for the GCC would be Pakistan somehow aligning with Iran and China to form an axis of its own. And this is what atleast some in Saudi Arabia are writing about
Editorial: Consolidating ties - Arab News


Infact, in any future war, its what China and US do that would matter the most. Keep in mind that it has been the US that has been putting pressure on India to not initiate military action wether it was mumbai attacks or the 2001 parliament attacks. China's role is more sinister in the sense that they seem to be helping Pakistan with their ballistics program as well as their nuclear weapons.

 

[ejazr]

Controlling from inside can only do so much. Having an outside threat has it's own benefits, or for India's case- headaches. U.S will never abandon a strategic asset like Pakistan. The last thing U.S needs is an unchecked India in the sub-continent.


The F-104 were from Jordon. Infact, your second link confirms it in the various de-classified cables, although it also mentions Iran for F-5, not F-104.

"National Security Council Memorandum for Henry Kissinger, Jordanian Transfer of F-104's to Pakistan, Secret, December 7, 1971, 7 pp. Includes State Department Cable to Jordan, State Department Memo to Kissinger, and United States Embassy (Amman) cable. First page has handwritten Kissinger note in which he, in reference to the title and secrecy of the issue, suggests "that title should have been omitted.""

"United States Embassy (Islamabad) Cable, Top Secret/ Exclusive Eyes Only, December 15, 1971, 1 pp.

The present trickle of Mig-19's and F-104's will not hold off the Indians. Handwriting next to Mig-19's notes "China" and next to F-104's notes "Jordan.""

"The State Department sees the possibility of a ceasefire in the East; Notes that Eleven Jordanian F-104 fighter aircraft have possibly been sent to Pakistan."

"India has ordered a unilateral cease fire upon the unconditional surrender of West Pakistani forces in East Pakistan. Despite the cease-fire, American officials in Dacca report that "no one seems to be in effective control of the situation," and that fighting continues "between Bengalis and scattered "Mujahid/Razakar/West Pakistani elements." Also, in a heavily excised paragraph, the CIA reports that a squadron of American origin, Jordanian F-104's was delivered to Pakistan on 13 December, despite an American embargo on military supplies to both India and Pakistan. This embargo includes third party transfers of American equipment to either of the parties."


Iran:

"Embassy Iran reports that three F-5A Fighter aircraft, reportedly from the United States, had been flown to Pakistan to assist in the war efforts against India. A Northrop official matches the aircraft to a group of planes originally slated for sale to Libya, but which were then diverted to USG control in California. This information suggests that not only did Washington look the other way when Jordan and Iran supplied U.S. planes to Pakistan, but that despite the embargo placed on Pakistan, it directly supplied Pakistan with fighter planes."

Thanks, I will have to have a look at that again then.

It seems that the jets were delivered on Dec13 but he war was over by Dec 15.

Also, what I was referring to was Document 29 which quite clearly shows the Jordanian King asking if he could transfer jets and being denied the permission to do so.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/BEBB29.pdf


So what it looks like is that the F-5s bound for Libya were transited through Iran onto Pakistan. And Jordan provided some of its F-104s to Pakistan seperately albeit just 2 days before the end of the war which would probably have been useless.

It is worth to keep in mind that Gen Zia ul Haq had been recently in Jordan commanding a Pakistani brigade which helped put down a Palestinian popular rebellion in Jordan just a year earlier. Palestinians refer to this incident as Black September

 

[fulcrum]

It seems that the jets were delivered on Dec13 but he war was over by Dec 15.


So what it looks like is that the F-5s bound for Libya were transited through Iran onto Pakistan. And Jordan provided some of its F-104s to Pakistan seperately albeit just 2 days before the end of the war which would probably have been useless.

It is worth to keep in mind that Gen Zia ul Haq had been recently in Jordan commanding a Pakistani brigade which helped put down a Palestinian popular rebellion in Jordan just a year earlier. Palestinians refer to this incident as Black September

Useless? no no. The war in the east may have ended on the 16th but the western theatre was still hot. Infact, 2 of these Jordanian F-104 fighters were shot down by the IAF on the 17th of Dec. Another F-104 kill whose source is yet to be determined. In any case atleast 2 RJAF F-104s were confirmed shot down, and unknown number unconfirmed. Their Islamic brother's help did count in the end, in our Kill ratios that is. But never the less their help was useful for the PAF.

 

[fulcrum]

Just to add to the details... The above does not include the F-104s already in PAF. All in all, in Air-Air, some 8 F-104's were shot down, of which atleast 2 of them belonged to RJAF. Of the 8 kills, MiG-21 bagged 7 of em! The 2 RJAF Starfighters were victims of the MiG-21.

 

[marshal panda]

Only India for IAF.

 

[Ray]

Handwritten note from President Richard M. Nixon on an April 28, 1971, National Security Council decision paper: "To all hands. Don't squeeze Yahya at this time - RMN"

The Tilt: The U.S. and the South Asian Crisis of 1971

So, Pakistan finds its way out of crises.

 

[p2prada]

Never seen that. Interesting. Omoshiroi.

 

[fulcrum]

Omoshiroi means interesting in Japanese. Being a regular Animax & Anime watcher helps. Anyway, are you really in Uganda? Would really like to hear what Ugandans think of Kenya and their junk F-5 fleet. I keep finding blogs where they keep comparing their second hand(!) bvr-less F-5s to Su-30s of Uganda. They go all hysterical when someone from outside drop by and beat some sense into them. I hope you are not a spam bot. -.-

 

[Dovah]

Omoshiroi means interesting in Japanese. Being a regular Animax & Anime watcher helps. Anyway, are you really in Uganda? Would really like to hear what Ugandans think of Kenya and their junk F-5 fleet. I keep finding blogs where they keep comparing their second hand(!) bvr-less F-5s to Su-30s of Uganda. They go all hysterical when someone from outside drop by and beat some sense into them. I hope you are not a spam bot. -.-

He's totally a spam bot. His ID is Prettygirl ffs.

 

[fulcrum]

*sigh* Just thought some girl had landed in DFI... it is possible.
Are there any girls in DFI?