Possibility: Direct Air Strikes inside Pakistan against terror camps

Discussion in 'Military Strategy' started by Indx TechStyle, Dec 6, 2016.

  1. Haldiram

    Haldiram Senior Member Senior Member

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    The Mirage was Matra-capable but these LGBs were not available because the IAF didn't have them. They purchased Paveway after the war started, then they realized that the Flipkart delivery boi had given the wrong parts so they had to take Israel's help to integrate it into the Mirage. Till then, they were sitting on vintage bombs. They had to use scrap to make the aircraft capable of delivering the bomb, because the IAF, in their words, had "never wargamed" a scenario where they'd have to drop LGBs at a high altitude despite knowing that Kashmir was a permanent flashpoint for a future conflict. So they didn't acquire that capability.

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    "By 12th June, IAF personnel had ironed out most of the faults". The hardpoints for the LGBs were added 2 months after the war had started. They were showing all this bravery while our relatives were coming back in body bags. If, in a country like India, surrounded by mountains on both sides of the border, the IAF had never wargamed for the obvious scenario of high altitude precision strikes, one needs to invite the IAF to a high level committee and ask what scenario did the IAF wargame. What did they think those expensive planes were given to them for? joy rides?
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
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  2. Defcon 1

    Defcon 1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Using Babur is not the point. The point is to force them in asymmetric warfare. What I am saying is that they will be forced to intercept our strike aircrafts and lose many expensive aircrafts in process. Brahmos doesn't achieve that objective.
     
  3. Enquirer

    Enquirer Senior Member Senior Member

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    You're not thinking in a step by step fashion. You're visualizing some mid-game with fancy objectives.

    The initial objective for India is to tell the world that it's taking out the terror infrastructure - Brahmos (which cannot be intercepted) will do it cleanly with no loss to India. There will be immense international pressure on Pakistan not to retaliate as its only the terror infrastructure that's destroyed.

    If you go with air strikes as the very first option. Then it's possible that Pakistan might intercept/destroy it - which will automatically escalate the situation to a full war! Full scale war is not an option India might want, given all the economic imperatives and flight of capital!
     
  4. Defcon 1

    Defcon 1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Kindly read this.

    Matras were available but expensive. That is why Paveway 2 was bought.
     
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  5. Haldiram

    Haldiram Senior Member Senior Member

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    When was Paveway bought? after the war started.
     
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  6. Defcon 1

    Defcon 1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Please help me understand, are you saying that once we strike Pakistani territory via a missile, they won't respond because of international pressure? I disagree with this statement, simply because Pakistani leadership will be forced to respond because of international pressure. We can agree to disagree though
     
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  7. Defcon 1

    Defcon 1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Yes becuase a limited war requiring use of cheap LGBs to strike at terrorists hiding in mountains wasn't thought of before. But that is not the point of the discussion, I only wished to prove to IAF had LGBs in their inventory at the Kargil war. It weren't used and new ones were brought is another matter. You cannot blame IAF planning for that.
     
  8. Enquirer

    Enquirer Senior Member Senior Member

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    As I said, wars & diplomacy are won with step-by-step moves. Leap frogging moves will only get India in trouble.
    Pakistan's balls are so squeezed right now, it won't act against the directives of its patrons. Even though its relations are strained with US, US can still exert huge influence via Saudis!

    Recent bailout money given by Saudis was only possible after US pressured Pakis (via Saudis) to bring Taliban to the table. In fact the only Taliban US wanted to speak to was a 'moderate Taliban' that had wanted peace all the while - but the Pakis made him rot in jail for the last 15+ yrs (while only allowing the rabid Haqqanis to be the Taliban's lieutenants). Pakis released Barader from jail &he's the lead negotiator from Taliban.....
     
  9. WolfPack86

    WolfPack86 Senior Member Senior Member

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    We can combine use SU -30 MKI, Jaguar, Mirage 2000 fighter against terror camps. But with in few limits of Pakistan air space.
     
  10. Haldiram

    Haldiram Senior Member Senior Member

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    When a force doesn't have the requisite weapons to execute a mission when called upon by the nation, who is to blame?

    Every service chief thinks up of possible scenarios and issues RFPs. The IAF didn't even think of this scenario until war broke out and 500 of our soldiers had already died. But they have the time to think of hypothetical 17 front war scenarios and taking press conferences.

    https://indianexpress.com/article/e...an-jugaad-in-recapture-of-tiger-hill-4735806/

    Send the Brahmos on as many targets as you like. It'll get the job done. Can't risk a plane being taken down inside Pakistan right now. The IAF is already a domestic embarrassment with their monthly crash ceremonies and weekly press conferences, it will become an international embarrassment for us if they crash inside Pakistan.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
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  11. Defcon 1

    Defcon 1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Were Pakistani balls not squeezed during 26/11? They were grappling with the rise of TTP and the 2008 economic crisis. Did that stop them?
    If US pressure is enough to stop Pakistan from retaliating, why did this attack happen in the first place?
     
  12. Defcon 1

    Defcon 1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Dude, the "mission" did not exist before Kargil war. No body thought such a limited war could be fought between 2 nuclear armed neighbours at 5000 metres. IA used to abandon border posts in winter remember?

    To plan for a scenario, the scenario must exist first. No air force can plan for every possible scenario.
     
  13. Enquirer

    Enquirer Senior Member Senior Member

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    Every paki attack on India was done with the (mis)calculation that some 'abbu' will come to rescue them.

    1965, Pakis expected China to join the war but that didn't happen. They're still bitter about it!
    1971, Pakis expected US to join the war (it kinda of sorta did a symbolic gesture - but after the war was over). Pakis never forgave US for that!
    1998, Pakis expected the whole world to order a ceasefire before the bullets were fired - thinking that the world would not want two nuclear powers to fight. But the world ignored it, and pakis ass got riddled with bullets as they ran!

    Also, you're mixing terror attacks with battles/wars. 26/11, Pathankot, Uri, Pulwama happens bcos Pakistan thinks it has plausible deniability. Which it does as long as India doesn't retaliate - which it rarely did!

    Coming back to the original issue of debate - it's about military to military conflict! In all such conflicts, Pakistan has indeed yielded to higher powers - (like Kargil)
     
  14. Enquirer

    Enquirer Senior Member Senior Member

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    Kargil situation should have been easily anticipated! Especially when India itself was comfortable in sitting on icy Siachen.

    Also, Kargil plan was decades old with the paki army (from the days of Zia!). It just didn't get implemented. Musharraff thought he should give it a try! It speaks of intelligence failure - that a plan was lingering in Paki minds for decades and India never got a whiff of it (also Pakis were good at keeping it concealed, unlike Indians)
     
  15. Defcon 1

    Defcon 1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    In Kargil, Pakistan yielded after being the aggressor, they are yet to yield as a defender. Using Brahmos will make them a defender, and there is no knowing whether they will yield.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
  16. Defcon 1

    Defcon 1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    So? you didn't get me. I am not saying that Kargil could not be anticipated.

    I am saying that it wasn't anticipated and hence it wasn't planned for. IAF cannot be blamed for not planning for a scenario which wasn't anticipated by anyone in the country.
     
  17. Enquirer

    Enquirer Senior Member Senior Member

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    That’s some weird arm twisting of the facts to help Pakistan!
    Pakistan IS the aggressor even now! Jaish is a veritable arm of Pak army. The weird logic you used was unfortunately in Indian heads too - that sending tens of thousands of terrorists somehow doesn’t make Pak the aggressor!
     
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  18. Enquirer

    Enquirer Senior Member Senior Member

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    Anticipating enemy moves is 50% of a military’s job, fighting it is the other 50%!
     
  19. Defcon 1

    Defcon 1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Lol you are now contradicting yourself. I am on mobile so can't attach your past posts but line of reasoning you gave initially was we should attack with Brahms because Pakistan can't respond due to US pressure. When I countered saying that if Pakistan was under US pressure they wouldn't have attacked in the first place, you narrowed down the discussion to military to military conflicts only claiming that in Kargil Pakistan did yield.

    Now I pointed that in Pakistan yielded as an aggressor, not as a defender, you go back to claiming that Jaish is a part of Pakistani army? Dude, you are one who talked about plausible deniability. Pakistan has plausible deniability even today. So why would they not respond to Indian brahmos strike?
     
  20. Defcon 1

    Defcon 1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Are you seriously saying that IAF should have expected that because of IA's abandoning of kargil posts in winter, terrorists can occupy them and LGBs will be required to flush them out? Shouldn't IA anticipate it since it was directly result of their action? Not to mention any air force had never been used at 5000 metres before kargil.

    Its absolutely unrealistic for one anyone to expect that from any force let alone IAF. Especially considering the amount of money we had in those days. Today 272 sukhois look very good. People often forget that they were initially bought for same price as JF17s.
     

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