Portuguese navy ship to reach Goa on Nov 12

[johnee]

I don't understand why there is so much angst against Voscoda Gama's arrival, discovery of Sea route to India is not a bad thing. Discovery of Sea route to India was a momentous movement, it easily linked India with the west. This brought great opportunities and risks to India, too bad for the country that Indian rulers at that time were incapable of either utilizing the opportunity or warding off the threat. But that doesn't mean the discovery of sea route is a bad thing.
Would you guys have preferred India to have hid itself away from rest of the world, while Europe was developing at breakneck speed?

Discovery of sea route to India was a momentous occasion for the west which desperately wanted to trade with the 'Golden Peacock' India. Indians already traded world wide and there was nothing spectacular about a new sea route being discovered by some barbaric westerner from India's perspective. India was already developed in most senses of the term. We lacked certain military technologies, thats it.

The occasion can be celebrated by those who see themselves as the inheritors of Vasco da Gama. But for Indians to participate in it and celebrate it, is really disgusting. If anything, India should commemorate the victims of colonialism and martyrs for freedom at these occasions and use these occasions to express strong condemnation of colonial times, colonial rule and colonial loot. India must demand that all the loot taken by the colonial powers from various countries must be returned with interest to their rightful owners along with apologies for spreading mayhem on the innocent locals.

Someone has compared this to Commonwealth. I agree. Even commonwealth is celebrating the English rule over the natives. The tone of the commonwealth needs to be changed. The English monarchy must not head it, instead must be present there to apologise on behalf of their ancestors. The whole occasion's theme must be to condemn colonial rule. No justification or excuse to support colonial rule is good. Colonialism sucks, thats it. And those that indulged in it, must apologise in clear terms. They must return the looted treasures to the respective natives.

Someone has said that we should be practical and 'forgive' & 'forget'. They have also asked us to be practical. Also another question arises: Do we have the capability to 'ask' them to do that and do this? Why will they oblige our 'demands'?

Firstly, we cannot forgive and we cannot forget. Yes, we need to be practical, so we do business, we maintain ties. That does not mean we forget lest we repeat our old mistakes. As for forgiving, they have not even apologised for their innumerable dastardly acts. How can we forgive them?

Next, do we have the ability to 'demand' and then to make them act according to our 'demands'? Well, we need to make the demand first. Whether it will be accepted or not is different issue. If we start making demands now, then probably, they will be met in a decade. But if we dont make a demand, they will forever celebrate their conquest over natives while simultaneously enjoying the ownership of the treasures they looted from us.

 

[johnee]

Lets not live in past....so, let us not celebrate our independence day. At the same time, we must allow others to celebrate their past by inviting them to celebrate various imporatant days of conquest of India. We must invite the British and Portuguese to celebrate. Further, if need be, we should allow them to rule over India again. After all, why should the present day Brits or Portuguese forgo of the privileges that their ancestors enjoyed in India?

 

[pmaitra]

Lets not live in past....so, let us not celebrate our independence day. At the same time, we must allow others to celebrate their past by inviting them to celebrate various imporatant days of conquest of India. We must invite the British and Portuguese to celebrate. Further, if need be, we should allow them to rule over India again. After all, why should the present day Brits or Portuguese forgo of the privileges that their ancestors enjoyed in India?

I see your sarcasm. But my friend, honestly, if we are capable of some degree of honesty, we should merely not highlight the negative sides of the Europeans in India, but also the positive side.

When India was part of the British Empire, trains were hauled steam locomotives, needed coal and water and ran on single tracks at most places. Yet, punctuality was maintained. Today, we all are witnesses to the way the trains are being run, despite all the hi-tech gadgets. I could go on about the advantages of the British Indian Empire, but I will stick to the Portuguese and Goa here.

I am not unaware of the bad sides of the Portuguese rule, however, how is Goa any better today with widespread bribery, corruption, land scams, drug peddling, sex, prostitution and trafficking of women and minors? In fact, this is the scenario in many parts of India. Seriously, with such things happening in India, why indeed should we celebrate our Independence Day?

 

[johnee]

Lets not digress. We are not discussing the relative merits and demerits of foreign rule in India as compared to self-rule. But let me write this one post on this topic.

I frequently hear some people say that the foreign rule not only had the negatives sides but there were also positive side to it. Perhaps, they are right. Generally, the merits of British rule, as enunciated by them, are railway system, english education and claim of unification of India.

We know why the railway system was introduced. To facilitate the proper loot of India's raw resources. We know why the english education was brought. So that certain natives can be trained to become clerks who can make the administration of the natives easier. The majority of English could not learn the native languages, so they taught the natives to learn their language for proper rule.

Then, they claim that India was united by the English and before that India was not India. Well, if English had not enslaved India for more than Two centuries, there is ample chance that India would have united on its own terms without all the associate poverty. In just half a century, Independent India has grown leaps and bounds inspite of all the corruption and other issues(that you mentioned). From one of the poorest nations to the fastest growing economy, India has covered this distance in just half a century. So, its fairly possible that India could have easily developed its own unification on its own terms without any outside colonial help.

Anyway, even if we accept that English(or all foreign) rule has some merits, should we be delving on them at all? You have asked me to look at the silver lining of foreign rule. I ask you, why should I?

Let me give you a crude analogy to make my point: If a woman is kidnapped and then imprisoned. Then the imprisoner rapes her everyday and uses her as a slave. Once the woman is freed from the imprisoner's clutches, should the woman think of merits and demerits of her imprisonment? Lets say the imprisoner tells others that his imprisonment of that woman also had some advantages for her. Lets say the imprisoner claims:
" From that woman's perspective merits of my kidnapping and raping the woman are:
a)I gave her food and water. I let her live.
b)I gave her clothes to wear.
c)I gave her sexual pleasure.
d)I did not rape her 24*7."
Should we accept that the woman had some advantages by being raped by the imprisoner?

 

[pmaitra]

We are not discussing the relative merits and demerits of foreign rule in India as compared to self-rule.

You are not, but I am. I am doing it for a balanced view that is free of rhetoric.

We know why the railway system was introduced. To facilitate the proper loot of India's raw resources.

The railways served several purposes:

• Exploitation of mineral wealth (e.g. Bengal Nagpur Railway) from which Britain benefited, which even we do today (South Eastern Railway) for our own benefit.
• Transportation of Troops, construction and training (read up the history of the 'Fairy Queen' and 'Express'), as we are earning foreign exchange by running a tourist train hauled by it (Delhi-Alwar).
• Transportation of Indians, then and now.

Criticize the British of exploiting India, but praise them for building the railways. Criticize the British for denying Indians right to sovereignty, but praise them for leaving back the Indian Army. No one, since the times of Chandragupta and Akbar has ever been able to forge an Empire as big as the British Indian Empire. Let's face it. These are not made up stories. These are facts.

We know why the english education was brought. So that certain natives can be trained to become clerks who can make the administration of the natives easier. The majority of English could not learn the native languages, so they taught the natives to learn their language for proper rule.

You don't know much about this subject, my friend. The very first English school was opened by a Scottish gentleman called David Hare, who had initially come to India to work as a watch repairer, but teamed up with Ishwarchandra Vidyasagar and started the first English school. The aim of this school was to impart English education and it stops at that. Neither Hare nor Vidyasagar had any political motives whatsoever. You need to learn more about history before making frivolous claims.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hare_(philanthropist)

Anyway, even if we accept that English(or all foreign) rule has some merits, should we be delving on them at all? You have asked me to look at the silver lining of foreign rule. I ask you, why should I?

For the second time, so that there is a balanced view.

 

[johnee]

Pmaitra,

I appreciate that you want a balanced view. But I dont understand you, when you want Indians and India to have a balanced view. India and Indians are the victims here. You dont expect the victims to have a balanced view. I gave an analogy to stress on that point.

Railways was primarily for raw resources. Soldiers are also for raw resources. Transportation of natives in third class compartments was just collateral. An analogy: Pakistan started terror industry to hurt India. Pakistanis getting killed is a collateral.

English education: I am not talking about which individual start it with what motive. I am talking about why the English empire promoted english education in India. I hope you see the distinction.

Lastly, I again appreciate your quest for balanced view(or a detached view). But dont expect me(as an Indian) to be balanced about Indian colonisation just as I dont expect a raped girl to be balanced about her raper.

We are seriously deviating from the topic. So, my last on this topic.

 

[Tomcat]

i agree with Pmartia here the British Indian Empire was a Regional superpower it influnced a wide area from the suze Canel In the Northwest to the straits settlements (singapore and Malayisa )in the north east it aslo controlled the Mideast for example the Mordern countries of qatar, UAE , oman and Baharin were part of the Bombay presidency and the Northern Command of the Indian army was responsible for law and oder and defense of the near mideast theater it was the first country to issue Passports and was give an empire status within british empier

 

[johnee]

Tomcat,
I never challenged that the British Empire(not British Indian Empire) was not a great power. As for India's role as a colony, again I agree that British squeezed every ounce out of India very well.

The point is should the Indians look at these as merits? This is the point on which I disagreed with Pmaitra.

 

[Tomcat]

evey coin has a good and a bad side to it take the good and kill the bad

thats all there is to it

wouldnt you agree that today it is indian money that is supporting Grand old britania in her retirment

let her and friends tell all their advantures and show of their faded glories

we should just sit around and listen

 

[S.A.T.A]

Tools and grand schemes employed by an imperial power to exert and strengthen her power over her colonies cannot be subjected to criticism or praise without invoking the principles of objectivity while making such observation.A sword is a mere tool in the hand of the one who wields it,depending on the point of view of the observer the hand that wields becomes a subject of criticism or praise.The subject is always the hands that welded the tool.Hence any criticism of imperial power is valid and remain inspite of the British railways,British Road network et al.Besides whom do we owe for all the cellphone,computers,buses and all those pretty airplanes,if India became acquainted to these,what is to say Indian would have know railways without a 'benign imperial power'...............

i will be repeating myself when i say these issues fall beyond the pale of this debate and had been employed to distract the crux of the debate.The gentleman above was right to note that that the chronicle of colonialism is like the two sides of a coin.In our case when Portugal sees one side of the coin,we Indians have no option but to look at the other side of the coin from the opposite end.If an indian has to see the coin from the Portuguese side,you have to switch sides. The choice to choose sides is left to each one us to weigh and deliberate.

Let me conclude by saying i have chosen mine.

 

[Phenom]

It opened the way for more invaders and hundreds of years of wars and colonial rule ending with a division of the land and the people.

Discovery of sea route to India was a momentous occasion for the west which desperately wanted to trade with the 'Golden Peacock' India. Indians already traded world wide and there was nothing spectacular about a new sea route being discovered by some barbaric westerner from India's perspective. India was already developed in most senses of the term. We lacked certain military technologies, thats it.

You guys are missing the whole point, India's enslavement is not because of the discovery of sea route, but because India was incapable of defending itself. The India VascoDa Gama arrived in, was hardly a safe place, Afgans and Turkic rulers were raiding India left, right and center and part of India had already fallen to them. If a country has lots of wealth and a weak army, then its bound to lose its independence.

 

[pmaitra]

Tomcat,
I never challenged that the British Empire(not British Indian Empire) was not a great power. As for India's role as a colony, again I agree that British squeezed every ounce out of India very well.

The point is should the Indians look at these as merits? This is the point on which I disagreed with Pmaitra.

You have every right to disagree, and I guess we have already agreed to disagree. I still stand by what I said. We should look at both the good sides and bad sides of the British (or any foreign) rule.

Are we benefiting from the mineral railway routes built by the British? The answer is yes. Hence, let us praise something we are benefiting from. Again, I have already agreed that the British exploited India in post #85 (and I am not particularly keen on repeating this very thing again and again, because if someone refuses to read what I already wrote, he will in all likelihood refuse to read it again). Nothing changes the fact that we are benefiting from many things the British did. Could we have defended Kashmir in 1948 had not we inherited a strong Indian Army from the British Indian Army? The answer again is no. The last time there was a major invasion from the north, India capitulated. With Kashmir, India held out and drove the invaders back.

In my humble opinion, those who think that blindly criticizing everything foreign invaders did and praising everything about Independent India is patriotism, then they are grossly deluded and are causing the biggest harm to the country. A true patriot will try to find faults in what we have in the present and not keep harping on the sufferings due to foreign rule, which though true are things of the past. I seriously wish we all tried to respect and adopt virtues of Europeans, like punctuality, discipline and dedication and the list is indeed very long; and for the umpteenth time, this should not be misinterpreted as refusing to acknowledge the sufferings that Indians suffered in British, Portuguese, French or Dutch colonies. I cannot make this any simpler than that.

 

[pmaitra]

You guys are missing the whole point, India's enslavement is not because of the discovery of sea route, but because India was incapable of defending itself. The India VascoDa Gama arrived in, was hardly a safe place, Afgans and Turkic rulers were raiding India left, right and center and part of India had already fallen to them. If a country has lots of wealth and a weak army, then its bound to lose its independence.

Very true. In fact, India was so disunited that there were enough intrigues within India that caused people from within India to invite or collaborate with invaders.

The first Indo-British war, the Battle of Plassey and the history thereof, is full of intrugues and betrayals by Mir Jaffer that led to the first Indian defeat in the hands of the British and imprisonment of Siraj-ud-Daulah. To go back more into the past, Babur simply did not come to invade India. He was asked to invade India by none other than Ibrahim Lodhi's kith and kin. If we go further into the past, we will see how Purushottam Puru's (Greek Porus) neighbours refused to join in a proposed coalition to fight the invading Greek Army led by Alexander.

Territories may change hands, but the point is that one must be capable of an objective evaluation. The best kingdom is one where the citizens are happy, content and properous, whether be it under democracy, plutocracy, communism, socialism, dictatorship and what have you.

Regarding Portuguese rule in India, I never praised the Portuguese rule. I only thing is that I highlighted the current plight of the state of Goa with all kinds of social and political ills plaguing it. Unfortunately, some respected members are refusing to acknowledge these ills and that is what I strongly object to. As long as we keep patting ourselves on our back and keep ignoring the harsh realities of life, we can never improve and we will be stuck where we are.

 

[Rage]

Even an enemy is someone we can learn from and especially from China. Our self-imposed restrictions and intellectualism that leads to meaningless political correctness is a matter of shame and insult to the souls of soldiers who die to protect our nation selflessly. One such example is the traitors called "AMAN KI ASHA" brigade. Another brigade is "dying to please Europeans" brigade. That case of 'neo-Nazis' in Israel was a minor one and I am familiar with it. What's so different? India has local cells of Indians joining Jihad against the very nation. This sort of strange stuff happens everywhere. But then as a state and as a nation, it is our responsibility to crush it and throw it out.

PLAN involved in Pirate fighting is for their own ships as well since the problem of piracy is all over and a lot of Chinese trade ships pass through Okinawa region. It is in no way comparable to the "always ready to appease enemy" approach that we Indians have. We Indians are the only ones with such suicidal political correctness on this planet and that includes inviting scoundrels like Musharaf despite knowing him to be the cause of Kargil war.

Even though we've nothing to do with Somalia still our Navy also patrols Gulf of Aden. This is solely for protecting self interest. What self interest are we protecting inviting the torturers of Goa after half a century back? We're only insulting the spirit of those who were massacred by these scumbags.

For me and many other Indians, national pride is more than a few extra bucks that we can earn from any other country. Portuguese are coming to India to celebrate their conquest of Goa? What insane sort of weakness is this that India's invited them for such a crazy idea?!! If it was Portuguese minister coming to Delhi for trade, I won't have said anything but this!? And what shocks me is that you're even supporting this! ==no+=way==

You want to learn something from China? Learn how not to be the world's canooli, how not to make rancorous statements, without having the power to back them up; and how not to go about international co-operation and political-ideology self-seeking.

Then, skip to the China of the present, and learn how to be pragmatic, to engage future rivals and past foes in ways that stand to your gain, and to use the strengths of others- innate or not, to your own advantage.

We're dancing around this question again. You fail to answer me: if your so-called definition of 'Indian pride' means more to you than a few bucks, then why are we still trading with the United States?, are we still part of the commonwealth? and still looking for cooperation with the Central Asian countries?

Your logic befuddles me. The Chinese can suffer the worst human democide in post-World War history and still cooperate with Japan, and that cooperation is 'in no way comparable' to India's cooperation with Portugal? A 'lot of Chinese' ships pass through the entire trading zone, then why cooperate with Japan on fighting piracy? Especially when Okinawa is no hub of trading piracy? When there are a million other naval powers, with acerbic pasts that one could cooperate with? and when China is no naval midget?

You're talkin' a load of crap. What "please European" brigade? Everybody that does not conform to your idea of the national interest, is bending over to 'please' others? Can you for once imagine, that we may not have the same concept of the national interest at heart, but are still deeply indebted to our nation? And what 'minor case' in Israel? Clearly, you are not informed of the prevalence of this malaise in Israeli society:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6985808.stm

This is the first case.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1861641,00.html

This is the second.

And there are literally dozens more where that came from.

True pride is not wallowing over yourself in a corner, it is about playing the game other have played with you- and beating them at it.

 

[Rage]

Which is why slave-minded government of our country could have simply chosen to welcome a Portuguese trade minister to Delhi, sign a few deals with him and send him back like a business deal rather than choosing such a controversial and anti-national occasion to celebrate. You ask me not to live in the past but in that case why celebrate such an event at all? Why not have a simple face-to-face meet and get some deals and be over with it?

Today Portuguese military is useless piece of liability even in Europe except for providing additional cannon fodder for US and that's the reason why they're stuck together in one alliance called NATO. Apart from UK, France and Germany, the rest entire Western Europe is simply armed with shiny stuff and has no capability to withstand on its own. The CG of NATO is USA and UK alone as France prefers the independent tag being on and off the NATO ship from time to time.

We could do more justice by sticking to business (and hence forgetting our hateful past) than raise such a controversial historical tragedy to welcome our past brutalizers. A few wannabes don't decide the fate of entire Goa and hence their revelry is insignificant. Those who fancy Portuguese life so much and think that they're also "white skinned developed and sophisticated Europeans" can try going there and living where they'd be laughed at for being so desperate. The entire Goan population has suffered too much and inviting a Portuguese ship that too for such a pathetic occasion simply reflects the slave mentality of Indian government which is embarrassing to the entire nation.

Is it just me or have everybody else here put on their "too arrogant to care for facts" blinkers.The sail ship is on a voyage to pay homage to a specific event from history may be matter of pride for portuguese,but a cause for great anguish for Indians.if things were seen in their proper perspective,the objection is to the fact that there is no necessity for India to pay 'Homage' to this event.Most of the rant about English queen and commonwealth seems to be desperate attempt to fudge the fact that the 'eager to please Europeans' brigade is unable to convince anybody,perhaps even themselves,Why India needs join this gala event.

Why create the Commonwealth games? Why host them? Why spend billions of dollars, hosting a sporting event in 'honour' of the empire of a nation that has occupied and subverted us for centuries, that was created to pay 'homage' to the Commonwealth, and in fact, to the very vile name of the Queen of England? Whether admitted, in fact by the press, or not. Is this entirely different? - merely because one makes it expressly so, and the other, by virtue of years of tradition, does not?

Why host joint military-training with the UK, or with China, or with the US, that more recently provided the weapons with which our soldiers and young boys were killed, and in fact started the same insurgents, with the help of which, Pakistan has bled us in Kashmir?

Why have close linkages with Persia, or with modern day Iran? Including building several cultural centres in several of our metro cities, having close intelligence links with them, and assisting them with 'expertise' in building their oil fields, so that we can gain.

Why host a joint Working Group on Defence with Mongolia? and have troops take part in the Khaan exercises?

Tshering,

You seem to be more pained about the 'sufferings' of the Goan population than the Goans themselves? The Goans have moved on, they know all this symbolic bullshit doesn't take them anywhere, what matters is what they stand to gain. Nothing else.

You admit that in your post, yet are concerned about the 'effects' this might have on the Goan populace? Is that thinking straight.

The 'slave-minded' government of this country, has infact opened new opportunities for cooperation with several countries, strengthened defence ties with partners in strategic locations, where our troops stand to gain from terrain and new experience, and opened avenues for export and trade with erstwhile foes, while we take advantage of their slumps in production and productivity and rake in the profits. Piddly nations like Portugal in Europe can never threaten us, not in this day and age, and while we gain & grow in strength, let us not let the opportunity to exploit them a lil' pass us by.

 

[S.A.T.A]

To borrow and rephrase Johnee's analogy of the event in contention to the 'violation of a woman'.imagine the descendants of this woman have made peace with the descendants of those who violated her.Now after a generation the descendants of the violator overcome with a bout nostalgia and with an intent to mark key moments of their family heritage,request the descendants of violated woman to organize a welcoming party that will receive a delegation from their side,who hope to retrace their ancestor to the place and time, where he violated the woman all those summers ago.........

We have no qualms over the fact that we have made peace with their descendants,but does that justify we as the descendants of this violated woman ought to be a part of this welcoming party and partake in the event to commemorate the anniversary of this 'violation'.Wouldn't this be ridiculous given that we have already made our peace,faced our past and all that.Is it too much of a crime to modicum of respect for sensitivities,even an impotent one.

Don't answer me,answer this to your conscience.

 

[pmaitra]

To borrow and rephrase Johnee's analogy of the event in contention to the 'violation of a woman'.imagine the descendants of this woman have made peace with the descendants of those who violated her.Now after a generation the descendants of the violator overcome with a bout nostalgia and with an intent to mark key moments of their family heritage,request the descendants of violated woman to organize a welcoming party that will receive a delegation from their side,who hope to retrace their ancestor to the place and time, where he violated the woman all those summers ago.........

We have no qualms over the fact that we have made peace with their descendants,but does that justify we as the descendants of this violated woman ought to be a part of this welcoming party and partake in the event to commemorate the anniversary of this 'violation'.Wouldn't this be ridiculous given that we have already made our peace,faced our past and all that.Is it too much of a crime to modicum of respect for sensitivities,even an impotent one.

Don't answer me,answer this to your conscience.

Did your conscience question you when India signed the Nuclear Deal with US, knowing fully well that US armed Pakistan to the teeth, supplied weapons to Pakistan that were used against India and supported Mujahideen for anti-Soviet fight that were later diverted to India for causing terrorism? Just curious. Your analogy, or for that matter Johnee's analogy, is good for oratory and stirring jingoistic feelings. The same thing was done by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto when he swept West Punjab with his speeches of 1000 year war with India.

When India invaded Goa, took it over by force and European Refugees were flown out of Goa back to Europe, it was a good enough humiliation for them for all the bad things they have done. You are not comparing apples with apples. One may probably fancy the idea of drawing parallels with 'violation of a woman', but I am not that emotional to get swayed. I have already answered my conscience, and the answer is not to let the heart rule the mind.

 

[S.A.T.A]

@pmaitra

So going by the analogy you wouldn't mind taking part in the commemoration,because this woman you didn't know personally and hence have no reason to feel emotional about her or the occasion which anyway happened a long time ago.

P.S:This seems to be an epic case of mind over matter,if you dont mind then it doesn't matter

 

[ahmedsid]

@pmaitra

So going by the analogy you wouldn't mind taking part in the commemoration,because this woman you didn't know personally and hence have no reason to feel emotional about her or the occasion which anyway happened a long time ago.

P.S:This seems to be an epic case of mind over matter,if you dont mind then it doesn't matter

The Woman Story is a good one, but only as good as ZA Bhuttos 1000 Year War! Its good for whipping up emotions, but of little value otherwise! Stories have that effect, I should know!

This is a matter of the mind, and If the Woman story is to be followed, you should ask for sudden and immediate expulsion of the English Ambassador and cut all ties, and then Stop any trade or any other Kind of Relationship with the USA, again with immediate affect. The Americans have spilt as much blood in India (through Pakistan) like the Portugese! Are you forgetting it, or Simply gunning for the Portugese coz they are the Small Fry?

 

[S.A.T.A]

If the progeny violators and violated have made their peace,then why the need for one to commemorate it and the other to observe acquiescence by participating in the same.Why i everybody so intent on obfuscating the point that this ceremony(which is now past us)marked a very specific event,which had cascading ramification on us.Why this needless and irrelevant brouhaha over English queens and ambassador's.Is it because some among us are unable to confront the ghost of colonialism,unless it doesn't rub the former colonial powers on the wrong side.


P.S:USA didn't colonize this country