PLA Vs Indian Army On LAC discussion thread.

[Kunal Biswas]

coming next

Post opeartional once, Dont repost the onces i already posted, Wheeled and opeartional not export varients..

Carry on..

 

[shiphone]

Kunal Biswas

QJY 88 is not operational, The pic is old not even the uniform was updated, Other rifles are not included coz its not standered issue to the majority of PLA..

You have to post what Mountain Infantry carries aka light infantry foot soldiers..

HMG are not included coz it cannot be carried for assaults.. .

I'm very surprised that such comment and rash conclusion were from you ,a senior military enthusiast active in various forums ,...a little disappointed...

you guys may just say'No，it's not ...'rashly without any proof，but I have to pile up loads of material and pics here ...unfair ,isn't it?
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gun is not new but to you ,pic is old,and of course the user's uniform is old ,type 07 uniform was provided in 2008...LOL ,what a logic...
IA has INSAS,AKM imported from East Eurpoe, AK47 in large amount in service ...even the AR21 for elite force... actually INSAS is not the majority rifile in IA...0.96Million IA ,and 1.6Million are the largst two Armies in the world, with the same limited budgets, it's not possible to upgrade all the weapon in short term for both aymies. Type 81-1 remains the standard Rifle in the Border Defence Regiment along the LAC, and QBz03 will come to replace it... QBZ95 is the stander rafile for the field unit
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'QJY 88' -- the project began in 1989 ,after 9 years' development, it passed the operation certification in 2000 and the production began .

this MG weight 7.6Kg( 11.8kg including tripod.) first it was used as Battalion level MG( HMG status with tripod in fire support company). and now it was arranged into platoon(LMG status without tripod ,3 per platoon). platoon leader will put them into the reinforced squad. it is unfamiliar to those foreign military fans as mentioned.

a patloon from unkown unit.

uniform updated pic

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HMG is the tradional and important Battalion or Company Level fire support weapon in ALL armies, I don't think it's exceptional in IA...and there is a fire support company in every Battlion of PLA Army where these HMGs belongs to...

China has a long history of developping a serial of Light Weight HMGs .if you are interested,I could make another thread...these HMGs are the lightest in the world which have to make a dent in accuracy and continuity .

some unit from a border defence regiment(Armed Police).

here, u you could see how a HMG opreation unit makes up...3 person (a shooter and 2 assistant shooter) for a HMG.1 for gun,1 for tripod,1 for ammo..others in the platoon would help for the extra ammo in the march.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I'm very surprised that such comment and rash conclusion were from you ,a senior military enthusiast active in various forums ,...a little disappointed...

you guys may just say'No，it's not ...'rashly without any proof，but I have to pile up loads of material and pics here ...unfair ,isn't it?
-----------------
gun is not new but to you ,pic is old,and of course the user's uniform is old ,type 07 uniform was provided in 2008...LOL ,what a logic...
IA has INSAS,AKM imported from East Eurpoe, AK47 in large amount in service ...even the AR21 for elite force... actually INSAS is not the majority rifile in IA...0.96Million IA ,and 1.6Million are the largst two Armies in the world, with the same limited budgets, it's not possible to upgrade all the weapon in short term for both aymies.

....... All i can do is smile at your post, Pherhaps must have done little reserch by yourself..
IA is actually 2M with territorial army, And Insas is IA standered issue not AK, AK meant for CT opeartions only, TAR-21 is for SF of various branches..

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'QJY 88' -- the project began in 1989 ,after 9 years' development, it passed the operation certification in 2000 and the production began .

this MG weight 11,8 kg with bipod( + 4.2 kg infantry tripod.) first it was used as Battalion level MG( HMG status with tripod in fire support company). and now it was arranged into platoon(LMG status without tripod ,3 per platoon). platoon leader will put them into the reinforced squad. it is unfamiliar to those foreign military fans as mentioned.

a patloon from unkown unit.

-----------------
HMG is the tradional and important Battalion or Company Level fire support weapon in ALL armies, I don't think it's exceptional in IA...and there is a fire support company in every Battlion of PLA Army where these HMGs belongs to...

China has a long history of developping a serial of Light Weight HMGs .if you are interested,I could make another thread...these HMGs are the lightest in the world which have to make a dent in accuracy and continuity .

here, u you could see how a HMG opreation unit makes up...3 person (a shooter and 2 assistant shooter) for a HMG.1 for gun,1 for tripod,1 for ammo..others in the platoon would help for the extra ammo in the march.

The Type 88 general purpose machine gun(Chinese designation QJY 88) is intended to replace obsolete Type67 machine guns in service with PLA. New weapon uses recently adopted 5.8mm ammunition of Chinese origin, although it is believed that a special loading with heavier bullet is used for this weapon, as opposed to QBZ-95 assault rifleand QBB-95 light machine gun. Despite the"type 88" designation the gun is relatively young, as it is believed to enter the service during first years of 21st century.
It must be noted that according to available information Type 88 machine gun isnot so popular among its users in PLA. While it is somewhat lighter than previous Type67 GPMG, it also lacks its range and lethality; compared to western 5.56mm LMGs such as FN Minimi, Type 88 is significantly heavier,while having almost same combat effectiveness.

Modern Firearms - Type 88 GPMG


So, you are saying its operational that seem legit, But weight is around 11,8 kg with bipod for a LMG and reports are that PLA not happy ? No doubt most pics we see mostly QBB-95, The LMG is too heavy for a platoon on 8000ft for regular patrols....


Regarding HMG, IA use AGL-30 mostly than HMG for heavy fire support, As far as i can tell you still dont get my point, The Infantry weapons Comparison are posted are based on platoon level of a Light Mountain Infantry at heights above 11,500 ft to 8,757 ft, The fire arm must able to be carrierd on LRPs, You can ask qestions rather making childish/ Amateur comments..

If you are asking abt Heavy fire support company level category its a different than, This is where you are confused..

Move on..

 

[JBH22]

@kunal 1 question a typical Indian company gets how many HMG ?
to be more specific can you describe the firepower of a usual Indian company size fighting unit...

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@kunal 1 question a typical Indian company gets how many HMG ?
to be more specific can you describe the firepower of a usual Indian company size fighting unit...

Sending you in PM.

 

[shiphone]

Sending you in PM.

why not here? i'm interested as well
---------------------------
I'm demonstrating the FIREPOWER of PLA Army AS A SYSTEM . not a simple 1 vs 1 weapon comparison...every type weapon has its value in fire system in the battlefield...before you understand it, I don't think all I have done is valuable to you and the purpose of the original thread...

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DZJ08 80mm single shot rocket launcher, has garnered a good reputation among Chinese troops who have been able to use it. In development for eight years, it reached the troops in 2008. It has a 300 meter range, a 1.65 kg (3.63 pounds) warhead and the entire weapon weighs 7.5 kg (16.5 pounds). Compare to PF-89 of 200m range also, So DZJOB is considered better RL for such terrain

this is what DZJ08 is for

a Tank killer and a wall breaker are inchangable in PLA Army weapon system. and I would like to add one more member into this serial of one time use(disposable) RL---no special operater aranged in Squad, every member could bring one.
Thermobaric Weaponry 80mm

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and no double standard here...please.

Kunal Biswas
Tracks are put of question coz they are heavy and big for the terrain..

T72M1 weighs?

#6

Kunal Biswas
Other RL are over weight and only for static placements..

PF98 120mm
The reusable tube launcher is fibreglass-wrapped and weights under 10 kg

ROCKET LAUNCHER:
The Carl Gusta ....
Weight of weapon complete with telescopic sight and bipod 10 Kg Approx....

#3



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shiphone
this MG weight 7.6Kg( 11.8kg including tripod.) first it was used as Battalion level MG( HMG status with tripod in fire support company). and now it was arranged into platoon(LMG status without tripod ,3 per platoon). platoon leader will put them into the reinforced squad. it is unfamiliar to those foreign military fans as mentioned.

Quoted by you

this MG weight 11,8 kg with bipod( + 4.2 kg infantry tripod.) first it was used as Battalion level MG( HMG status with tripod in fire support company). and now it was arranged into platoon(LMG status without tripod ,3 per platoon). platoon leader will put them into the reinforced squad. it is unfamiliar to those foreign military fans as mentioned.

why did you edit my words in the quote?

LMG status without tripod is used in platoon .it weights 7.6kg..that's what you see in those 2 pics ,BTW, this LMG operation team has 2 members ,shooter and assitant.

HMG status with tripod is 11.8kg, but team has the 3rd member carrying the tripod and some ammo

the weight of the other 2 MGs you might be familiar with...
7.62mm FN MAG 11.79kg
7.62mm Bren L4, 8.68-10.35kg

--------------------------

Regarding HMG, IA use AGL-30 mostly than HMG for heavy fire support, As far as i can tell you still dont get my point, The Infantry weapons Comparison are posted are based on platoon level of a Light Mountain Infantry at heights above 11,500 ft to 8,757 ft, The fire arm must able to be carrierd on LRPs, You can ask qestions rather making childish/ Amateur comments..

oh, you mentioned it right now? after so many posts? and even bring the BMP2s with you into the battle field? I couldn't understand why these vehicles couldn't carry these so called heavy weapons.

I would go on at my pace, basicly no reply to your questions....what I post here is just for you reference only... you are free to choose what is useful for you...cheers,

 

[shiphone]

Kunal Biswas
SVD are largely equipped in Chinese para military not PLA, Post a new pic with solider with SVD i will add..

向小平 Xiangxiaoping --famouse battle hero.

he gained 30 killing and 1 wounding record with 31 rounds in 40 days during the south west Border Conflict between 1984 and 1989. his weapon was well know as Type 79 even when I was young.

TypeXX : normally XX means the year of this weapon got its operation certification.

Tpye 79: copy of SVD, into service after 1979. even before the Forming of Armed Police in June 1982
Tpye 85: improved 79, into service after 1985

and this is still the standard weapon of the Sharpshooters from the 1st,4th,7th Squad of each company of the Border Defence Regiment along the LAC which still equipped with 7.62mm Type 81 rifles

 

[Kunal Biswas]

why not here? i'm interested as well
---------------------------
I'm demonstrating the FIREPOWER of PLA Army AS A SYSTEM . not a simple 1 vs 1 weapon comparison...every type weapon has its value in fire system in the battelfield...before you understand it, I don't think all I have done is valuable to you and the purpose of the orignal thread...

Their are no infos on Company level abt IA on the net, if that was open i would have posted info, But as its dont i am not going to put such info on open forum..

Sorry i am not getting your point..

See, The most important role of the Original thread is the knowledge abt own and other wepion systems, Now in a Platoon their are fixed firearms, In IA i have posted Carl Gustaf 84mm but not shipon as its not in use by every unit, But we have such RL, Same as i posted Insas LMG not Bren coz Bren is being progressively replaced by Insas LMG, Same for PLA platoon i have chooses Lighter most effective weapon at that environment
---------------

this is what DZJ08 is for

a Tank killer and a wall breaker are inchangable in PLA Army weapon system. and I would like to add one more member into this serial of one time use(disposable) RL---no special operater aranged in Squad, every member could bring one.
Thermobaric Weaponry 80mm

------------
and no double standard here...please.

DZJ08 have different warheads for use, And its better than most other RL in PLA, So its best as its lighter and effective in 300m ranges..

Double standard for RL, it is..

T72M1 weighs?

#6



#3



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BMP-2 and T-72M1 have infrastructure to get into front-lines, These tanks and APC are airlifted from major bases in India to Arunachal pradesh, Whereas Roads connecting China and India on Arunchal Pradesh are able to hold no more than 5-10 ton, 8-10 toner trucks can pass may be a 8x8 apc..

why did you edit my words in the quote?

LMG status without tripod is used in platoon .it weights 7.6kg..that's what you see in those 2 pics ,BTW, this LMG operation team has 2 members ,shooter and assitant.

HMG status with tripod is 11.8kg, but team has the 3rd member carrying the tripod and some ammo

the weight of the other 2 MGs you might be familiar with...
7.62mm FN MAG 11.79kg
7.62mm Bren L4, 8.68-10.35kg

--------------------------

I have provided the link say so..

向小平 Xiangxiaoping --famouse battle hero.

Tpye 79: copy of SVD, into service after 1979. even before the Forming of Armed Police in June 1982
Tpye 85: improved 79, into service after 1985

and this is still the standard weapon of the Sharpshooters from the 1st,4th,7th Squad of each company of the Border Defence Regiment along the LAC which still equipped with 7.62mm Type 81 rifles

I have seen SVD in Chinease armed forces but SVD is not the majority of firearm used by PLA sharp shoother, so its not in the list..

oh, you mentioned it right now? after so many posts?

I would go on at my pace, basicly no reply to your questions....what I post here is just for you reference only... you are free to choose what is useful for you...cheers,

Its understandable by looking at the details, Why wouldn't i add AGL-30 and FN-MAG/PKM to IA inventory ?

So does i included all the hardware's light enough to carry in such battle field for both sides, I have given you details and reasons still if its not enough cant help more..

 

[shiphone]

a quick reply here. some update about DZJ08 and PF89

Originally Posted by Kunal Biswas

DZJ08 have different warheads for use, And its better than most other RL in PLA, So its best as its lighter and effective in 300m ranges..

I know Chinese laguage might be main barrier for you guys to get info about PLA, that's the fact ... and I thought you had better knowledge about PLA weapons than most of indian friends here(your MP experience might help), that's why I would like to reply in the original thread and had this thread...but please don't make the same mistakes as some others.

...we are discussing with source and evidence...

why did you insist current DZJ08 had different warheads for anti tank and other purpose?
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DZJ08 is especially designed for CITY combact...it could be fired in a enclosure space (such as a room) ,which other chinese RL couldn't. and this is why this type of LR was asked to be developped in 2000(passed the certification check in 2008 ).Right now it has just one kind of Warhead for Anti barrack (as mentioned in your thread, it is offcially called Anti Barrack Weapon攻坚弹)and Light Armor Vehicle. it is reported that new warheads are under development. after success, it would have a new model number(something like DZJ08A,B....)

Rocket of DZJ08 system ,pay attention to the warhead

more pix here

Actually the PF89 ,the base model for Anti tank origianly, already had varients with different Warheads after so many service years in PLA since 1993.

PF89A has 1000M of leaf sight(PF89 has 400M only ,and 200M direct shot range)--if you have a special hobby of Range. and this model is for Barrake and Light Armor Vehicles targets.armor-piercing only 20mm/60°(180mm/65° for PF89)

difference between the rockets of PF89(below) and PF89A(above)

PF89B Anti-tank ,improved warhead for ERA

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the system weights of these RL(Rocket and Launcher ):

PF89 3.7kg
PF89A 4.2kg
PF89B 4.7kg
DZJ08 7.5kg

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basicly no updates until weekend, sorry

 

[shiphone]

Part D : PLA Army Artillery

http://defenceforumindia.com/military-analysis/16694-pla-vs-indian-army-lac-read-first.html

origin thread and Post #9 a little correction to the Kunal Biswas' work. the mentioned WAC-021 155mm and the M777 style NewGeneration Light weight howitzer would be found in special Chapter 2.
---------------------------------------------

PLA Tube Arty towed the Artillery is the very important in the PLA fire syetem. Towed guns are the backbone weapon in the Arty Reigments of the Infantray Div.s

PL66 and PL66-1 152mm gun-howitzer the origin is D20,....5.7 tones,20km largely equitted in PLA ,Corp and Div Level gun

PL59 and PL59-1 130mm cannon gun a copy of M46,....6.1 tones,30km,largely equitted in PLA ,Corp Level gun Mainly for Anti-Arty purpose.

PL83 122mm howitzer Designed in early1980s,....2.6tones,20km largely equiptted in the Arty. Battalion in Xizhang(Tibet) ,Div. Level howitzer

PL96 122mm howitzer D30 ,....new howiter and deployed in the Arty. Battalion in Infan.Div. and Brigades. also the standard howitzer of Airbone Div.s ,Div. Level howitzer

 

[shiphone]

Part D : PLA Army Artillery.... Continued
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MRLS

http://defenceforumindia.com/military-analysis/16694-pla-vs-indian-army-lac-read-first.html

origin thread in Military Analysis Sub forum...#10 post...None of these 3 models(A100,WM80,Type90) is the active eqipment of PLA Army...more info would be provided in special Chapter 2 if interested.
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PHL03 12-Tube 300MM New model, but could be spotted in the Arty Div./Brig.s of at least 5 Group Armies already...70-130Km range. Corp Level

PHL81 40-Tube 122MM standard equiptment of the PLA　multibarrel rocket gun Battalion...in service for nearly 30 years ...20-40Km range. Division Level

Type 63 107MM a very interesting weapon for Light infantary and Mountain Unit. there are many varients in service. Regiment Level

standard 12 tube ...600KGs...

8 tube on a ATV

12 tube on a airborne vehicle

single and doublet luncher for a troop unit corresponding to the platoon or squad

 

[Kunal Biswas]

1. PHLO3 will relace A-100 from thread
2. WM-80 will be removed..
3. Present 122mm Mbrl have same range as Type-90MBRL also type-90 have addition ammo for Rl, still i will replace it with the given data..

4. I will not add type-63, Coz

a. its heavy, not man portable,
b. carrying ammo require more men and logistics are heavy
c. With just 8.5km range it easy to spot and easy to retaliate, with WLR any MBRL with no serious mobility is easy target.


Its best for Airborne troops..

 

[Armand2REP]

I can't believe China still uses the BM-12, that crap is from WWII.

 

[shiphone]

Type 90 and Type90B will be introduced in Special Chapter 2...coz it is for Export only...I would use the Blue fonts

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PHL81 updates... the 40 rounds reloader.- a separated vehicle.

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Type63 is an old weapon...but it is still the standard and effective weapon for South Region Regiments and South West Region Moutain Unit...

but as I said ,all is for reference

 

[shiphone]

Part D PLA Army Artillery.... Continued

S.P.G.H

Wheeled Self-propelled Howizer in PLA Army

PLL0X 122mm Wheeled SPH improved PL96 (or PL83) Howizer on a SX2050 Truck. 20Km range. it will replace those PL83s in the Mechanized Light Infan. Div/Brig.s and some Motorized Infan.Divs.

PLL0Y 122mm 8×8 Wheeled SPH a PL96 on the 8*8 vehicle...the fire support varient of 8*8 vehicle family mentioned in Part B.

 

[shiphone]

next will be Tracked SPHs in Heavy Units...update later.

#12 post by shiphone

When confilct occurs and after the arriving of the First Wave reinforcement consists of Fast Reaction Unit and Light MECHANIZED INFANTRY and Motorized Infantry Brigades/Divisions. PLA Army would send their Heavy Units as Reserves in case any unfavourable situation , although most of battles would go on in the Mountains or Jungles terrain. IA already has some Armour and Mechanized INFANTRY Div.s deployed in this Area or near around,and a STRIKE Corp may be raised in near future...They might meet each other if there was some war....

it seems there were loads of news about infrastructure Upgrading on the chinese side of LAC coming from Indian Media every year . most of chinese get to know what chinese goverment and PLA is doing with their money from these indian news...sincere thanks to free democratic media ....

 

[SPIEZ]

sorry ,I was watching the TianGong-1 lunching on TV
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ZBD04 -2ed Generation BMP-3 Style turret.100mm,30mm,7.62mm, Missile,around 20Tones.


ZBD04A Heavy Armour version Improve ZBD04, 10Tones heavier, coming soon

Do the Chinese use Steyr AUG ? This looks like a Steyr AUG

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Do the Chinese use Steyr AUG ? This looks like a Steyr AUG

Airsofters....

 

[Kunal Biswas]

next will be Tracked SPHs in Heavy Units...update later.

it seems there were loads of news about infrastructure Upgrading on the chinese side of LAC coming from Indian Media every year . most of chinese get to know what chinese goverment and PLA is doing with their money from these indian news...sincere thanks to free democratic media ....

Heavy mechanized units are stationed back on both sides, Coz the front-lines are over mountains, No heavy equipment can go there, Exception can be PL-2..

 

[SADAKHUSH]

Kunal Biswas and shiphhone:

Hats off to you guys for presenting me with tons of information, I am going to spend lots of time studying the weapons of our enemy. Thank you for your hard work.(Kunal Biswas and shiphone). Just out of curiosity what is your professional background? You can refuse to answer , if you don't want to divulge.