Philippines to stand ground vs bullying of China

Discussion in 'China' started by Drsomnath999, Apr 29, 2012.

  1. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Temperatures rising in the South China Sea - The Nation

    Temperatures rising in the South China Sea.

    The code of conduct being drawn up by Asean is much needed to defuse conflict

    If the current tension continues in South China Sea, especially between the Philippines and China, it could lead to an all-out war. This is not an alarmist's warning but a real concern. With poisonous rhetoric and growing tension, there is a possibility that conflicting parties would cross the line. This could be a result of miscalculation.

    First of all, the Philippines has been quite aggressive in pursuing its claims in the Scarborrough Shoals. President Beningo Aquino III was very vocal against China with strong condemnations that have surprised his Asean colleagues. For the past one month, news headlines continued with the exchanges between the two claimants with sharpening threatening words. Apparently, either party will climb down for the time being. From the Philippine perspective, this is not a conflict between the two countries, it is between China and other claimants. Whatever happens to the Philippines as a result, it will happen to other Asean claimants as well. That is why the Philippines has been quite disappointing that Asean as a whole did not come forward to back its positions.

    From Beijing's point of view, the Philippines poses a huge challenge to its claims in the resource-riched maritime region by dragging the conflict beyond the regional limits. The Philippine leaders have constantly argued that their defence treaty with the US would be affected if a war breaks out between the Philippines and China. Although the US has not said much but it is willing to play along with the ambiguity. That can be the most dangerous game in town. With the ongoing presidential campaign, the Republican warriors have been attacking President Barrack Obama's foreign policy and its achievements. This could lead to toughening of Obama's position vis-?-vis China to feed in domestic electoral strategies. Of course, one should not take the campaign slogans too seriously. The Chinese leaders would not take such positions lightly. This is a precarious situation if it happens.

    Again, the only way out is to make sure that both Asean and China could agree on the code of conduct in managing conflict in South China Sea. Otherwise, it would be difficult to reduce tension. Last week's meeting in Phnom Penh among the senior officials belonged to the working on South China Sea produced some positive outcomes. But they still have more challenges. First of all, the Asean members have to agree among themselves. Then, they have to present the code of conduct to the Chinese for further consultation. If both sides could not agree on the code by the end of this year, the conflict could intensify and fuel further mistrust. That is not augur well with the region. Asean is moving towards the Asean Community. Any disruption in the Asean-China relations would be hazardous to the future community building.

    It is imperative that the Philippines and China utilize the Asean channel through the code of conduct as a mechanism to stand down. This is after all the best "face-saving" device for them. They must do it now as the time is running out.
     
  2. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    U.S. triples military aid to Philippines in 2012 | Reuters

    U.S. triples military aid to Philippines in 2012



    * Manila urges U.S. to lift conditions on military aid

    * Washington says will double military financing for Manila

    * Pentagon agrees to share data on South China Sea

    By Manuel Mogato

    MANILA, May 3 (Reuters) - The United States will nearly triple its military funding for the Philippines this year, the Philippine foreign ministry said on Thursday, as tensions rise with China over disputed islands and Washington bolsters its alliance with Manila.

    However, the Philippines expressed concern over what it said was a sharp decline in its share of U.S. foreign military financing (FMF) despite Manila's central role in the U.S.'s military "pivot" back to Asia.

    Foreign Minister Albert del Rosario said the Philippines accounted for over 70 percent of total FMF allocation for East Asia in 2006, compared to 35 percent this year.

    "We hope this is not indicative of the priority placed on the Philippines as a regional partner, as even non-treaty allies appear to be getting a bigger share of the FMF allocation," del Rosario said in a speech at the Heritage Foundation in Washington, according to a foreign ministry statement.

    Del Rosario was in Washington for the first "two-plus-two" dialogue among their foreign and defence secretaries as they look at ways to deepen ties and help Manila build a "minimum credible defence posture".

    Washington agreed to provide $30 million in FMF this year, up from an initial 2012 allocation of $15 million and from $11.9 million last year. In 2003, funding amounted to $50 million as Washington sent forces to help the Philippines battle al Qaeda-linked militants.

    The Philippines is offering the United States greater access to its airfields and may open new areas for U.S. soldiers to use as it seeks stronger military ties with its ally and faces rising tensions with China in the maritime dispute.

    The United States also agreed at the meeting to share "real-time" data on the South China Sea, suggesting it will give Manila more of its surveillance data on naval activity. The State Department also promised to explore "creative funding streams" to help the Philippine military.

    Del Rosario, who previously served as Manila's ambassador to Washington, also urged the U.S. to lift conditions on a portion of FMF allocation for the Philippines.

    Since 2008, the United States has withheld the release of about $3 million in military financing for the Philippines due to political killings and human rights abuses.

    He said the current government of President Benigno Aquino has already taken significant steps to end these killings and has improved human rights conditions.

    Since 2002, the Philippines has received nearly $500 million in military aid from the United States, according to the U.S. embassy in Manila. The amount does not include the transfer of 20 reconditioned helicopters, a Cyclone-class ship and a Hamilton-class cutter.

    A second Hamilton-class cutter will be transferred later this month and the two sides are discussing the possibility of a third Hamilton-class ship and a squadron of second-hand F-16 fighters. (Reporting By Manuel Mogato; Editing by Stuart Grudgings and Jeremy Laurence)
     
  3. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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  4. WuMaoCleverbot

    WuMaoCleverbot Regular Member

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    DFA slams Chinese report on agreement on Unclos
    By Jerry E. Esplanada
    Philippine Daily Inquirer
    2:49 am | Monday, May 28th, 2012

    DFA slams Chinese report on agreement on Unclos | Inquirer Global Nation

    The Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA) has disputed a report posted on the website of the Chinese Embassy in Manila that claims that both the Philippines and China agree that the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (Unclos) “cannot be utilized as a legal ground to claim territorial sovereignty.”

    < Edited >

    Last month, the foreign office temporarily stopped diplomatic meetings with the Chinese embassy, charging the Chinese diplomats with relaying inaccurate information to Beijing.

    The DFA had accused Chinese Ambassador Ma Keqing of wrongfully conveying a nonexistent agreement of a pullout of all vessels in the Panatag Shoal area.

    Hernandez clarified that what was agreed upon in earlier meetings was for the Philippine and Chinese sides to refrain from doing anything that would increase tensions in the disputed area.

    Foreign Secretary Albert del Rosario had said that the inaccuracy of information being relayed to China could somehow trigger different protocols.

    The DFA head recalled that during the third meeting with the Chinese side, Ma informed the foreign office that Beijing was becoming more assertive because Manila had violated an agreement.”

    ‘No agreement’

    “I said…there was no agreement. That’s why we are in a stalemate. They were harping that we didn’t honor an agreement. I felt I should clarify that with the Chinese government, it seems that report was not accurate,” Del Rosario told a recent DFA press briefing.
     
  5. WuMaoCleverbot

    WuMaoCleverbot Regular Member

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  6. amoy

    amoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    The dispute is about the land - Huangyan, while UNCLOS addresses TERRITORIAL SEA AND CONTIGUOUS ZONE

    Tell me if the US is a member to UNCLOS?!
     
  7. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    The issue is whether that land falls within the jurisdiction of the territorial waters or not!

    It is like the Maldives claiming Laccadives as their territory and not India's.
     
  8. WuMaoCleverbot

    WuMaoCleverbot Regular Member

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    It is about international arbitration which China objects. China doesn't want international arbitration because her claims is very weak. Her 9-dash claim basis is a non-existent map.

    China has 3Trillion dollars of cash reserves and still wants to land grab her neighbors territory. China needs to moderate her greed.

    China only stands on a historical claim, and the Philippines has taken the view that Beijing’s claim is not supported by UNCLOS.

    Even your government officials and professors from your universities can't show any proof!

    Yet there are Chinese like you who rant in these forums as if they are right.
     
  9. s002wjh

    s002wjh Senior Member Senior Member

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    who give a damn about UNCLOS, not US. as far as south china sea, even vietnam claim large part of it. i dont belief ph, vietnam, china or any other country has sole right to the area. better to work with china and share the resource while time still favor ASEAN. at this rate of china military development in a decade or so, theyll probably take it by force if its not solved by then.
     
  10. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Why should others work with China when China wants to steal everything?

    It would better if China work with the world, so that all can benefit.

    UNCLOS is one way to ensure there is some semblance of world orderliness.

    China can't take it by force. Disabuse yourself of that notion.

    If they could, then they would have done it already as she has done it in so many other place.

    Remember, BIG BROTHER is watching!
     
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  11. s002wjh

    s002wjh Senior Member Senior Member

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    UNCLOS is overrated, thats it. the guy with big gun or most $$$ is gonna get what he want it in the end. for example if UNCLOS decide guantanamo bay is part of cuba, would US give a damn about it, no. or if UNCLOS decide falkland is part of argentina, would UK give a damn about it? again no. or if UNCLOS decide andaman is part of burma or thailand, would india care? no.
    the thing is china is a major power in asia, philippine is better to work with china and share the resource in the region than confront them headon, it will only lead to a bleeding nose.

    and we only need to see who control the mexican gulf or india ocean to know how the world power work.

    US is not gonna goto war with china over some island, few cans of oil for phillippine benefit, china is not iraq or afahan. US certainlly need china for many other important issues, Iran, NK, trade, economy, borrow money from china and the list goes on and on. US will only resort to military intervention when china become VERY aggressive, meaning start a MAJOR war with vietnam, malasia, phillippine and ASEAN in the region for no reason or invade phillippine mainland. both are VERY UNLIKELY to happen, and china already indicate they allow freedom of naviagation even if they have SCS. it doesn't benefit them to interrupt the shipping lanes in the area, they rely uninterrupt shipping in the region more so than ASEAN.

    china has many other ways to convince phillippine to solve the issue on chinese term, economy, $$$ or other method. so all in all there is not much phillippine can do other than negotiate with china ASAP, and get a piece of pie, cause in 10 20yrs china military/economy could become more powerful, and US will be even more reluctant to intervene militarily.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2012
  12. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    If only you understood UNCLOS..

    UNCLOS does not decide arbitrarily. There are set principles.

    And anyway China does not have the clout to enforce her will, given that the US and the other countries will take China on.

    In two ticks of a sheep's tail, China will be put in place.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2012
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  13. s002wjh

    s002wjh Senior Member Senior Member

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    i think people are too optimistic to think US will just arrive on a white horse and save the day. i'm an american i don't want my country to spend $$$ on more war, espeically for some island most americans never heard of it. I don't think american like the idea to send their sons/daughter to fight against red china for some disputed island thousands mile away, and for phillippine benefit. also there are so much investment going on for US corp. in china, and i doubt those big CEO will be happy when their profit drop. and those CEO influence reach deep in US political sphere.

    so no US will not get involve unless china invade phillippine mainland or become too aggressive. all the US politician are doing now just talks. they do that alot. but when it come to a direct war with china, those politician will think twice/more about it.

    take Georgia for example, did US got involved? no, the risk is too great and the benefit is too little. or even Syria, N.korea, Iran. US has much worse relationship with these countries than china, yet other than talk and some economic sactions, did US resort to force?

    most american are tired of wars, its political sucide for any politician to start a war with china for few islands. and its not even US terroritory we are protecting, but someone elses. heck the phillippine kick us out in the 90s now they want us back to watch their behind and let us do all the work etc etc. i don't think so.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2012
  14. Oblaks

    Oblaks Regular Member

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    I love thinking about the fact that America always keeps the other side on guessing about its intentions and next moves. They only need to keep china wondering about what will be their move on the SCS and pacific issues and that would be enough to make the area calm from over Chinese aggresion and prevent war on the disputed territories.

    Your analogy of America's benefits over the islands is very shallow when, actually is it only a part of the big picture. American control over the pacific is that big picture. Taming china and preventing it from overtaking the US militarily and economically is that big picture.

    The point is. Nobody needs to go to war. It is a good thing that all parties are shackled by the present situation right now that is china having more military strength than most of the parties in the dispute and those parties being under the umbrella of the US and the public opinion and more.

    The US not ratifying UNCLOS has nothing to do with any of this. They are not part of the dispute. China and Philippines are. China is defiant of Arbitration because she won't stake losing the disputes on the arbitrator's decision. And anyway China is part of P5 so if ever the decision goes against them, they can veto or simply ignore the decision. But what really matters is, if the decision wil not favor china, public opinion wil be also against her. And if she goes against the decision, she will be officially labeled as the world's bully and turn all nations against her.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2012
  15. Oblaks

    Oblaks Regular Member

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    ASEAN has no problems playing that game ( sharing thr SCS) with China. It is China who want's to take all of it. Have you seen China's nine dash claim to SCS. For the Philippine side, if it allows china to realize that claim, imagine, sailing just a few miles away from your coast and all of a sudden it's already Chinese territory. While you are walking on the shore, you can view Chinese fishermen and coast guard. Will that make you feel comfortable? ASEAN nations involved claim only part of the seas which will give them a safe distance from china.
     
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  16. amoy

    amoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    I agree with this part nobody needs a war. Why war? A few surveillance ships of Fishery Admin. (non-military) are enough for achieving China's near-term targets which IMO can be summed up as (tri-fold probably)

    1) to stop PH bugging Chinese fishing activities. Gone were the days PH coastal guard detained, extorted and shot Chinese fishermen, and even sank their vessels.

    2) to fend off PH's attempts to unilaterally explore the resources. Which foreign energy firms would still venture to participate in bidding for blocks put forward by PH within the 9-dash after risk assessment?

    3) to tell other claimants (esp. VN) how things may evolve if ...

    And furthermore a substantial step is to establish a permanent presence on Huangyan! So it can be done without 'war" to further China's interest.

    That doesn't negate China's claim! Examples hv been given , such as Andaman close to Burma, and Falklands, and even Greek islands off Turkish coast.

    9-dash was made by Rep. of China (ROC) in 1930's when there was no PH or VN as independent entities. IF CCP were to deviate from that it'd be seen far impotent than KMT who's now running Taiwan.
     
  17. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    The events do indicate that the US Sir Galahad, in shining armour, does come charging on a white charger.

    Events that starts from the time the USS George Washington steamed opposite North Korea, naval exercises with Philippines and then with ex foe, Vietnam after the Chinese aggressiveness in SCS, selling naval vessels to Philippines, sending its most modern nuclear submarine USS Carolina to the Subic Bay and giving an hefty increase in defence aid to Philippines indicates that the US is serious about ensuring that the US maintains her global presence and supremacy around the area.

    The question of going to war with China is a later question and the US will take a call then. Till that time, the US is merely ensuring that the strategic initiative does not slip into China’s hand. The activities so far do not even qualify to be black war clouds looming on the horizon.

    Indeed the US has trade with China. But then, it is more of China’s interest to keep the US happy on this count. Chinese trade can be snuffed out with the snap of a finger from the US. Iran is an example where Nations dependent on Iran oil has had to boycott Iran or cut it down substantially.

    About Americans not knowing the name of the Islands is not surprising. Many others around the world would also not know since they are tongue twisters. But this much the Americans and even others know, is that bullying is just not acceptable. It is called collective security. Today, it is Philippines, tomorrow…….?

    Please recall Neveille Chamberlaine and his appeasement theory where he allowed Hitler to claim Sudetenland and then the greed factor went up and so started WWII. Thus, the price the Allies paid was a huge one, all because of appeasement and the theory of Peace at All Costs.

    Therefore, if China is allowed to ride roughshod today and not restrained, then the cost may be higher tomorrow!
     
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  18. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Whether the Chinese vessels were non military or otherwise is not the issue. The issue is Chinese vessels in Philippines waters.

    Would China allow Taiwanese fishing vessels or non military surveillance vessels near the Chinese coast? After all, Taiwan claims the whole of China.

    If China feels that Philippines is not correct in its claim, then let UNCLOS decide the ownership. Why is China is adamant that she alone is correct and all others are wrong? And why is China shy about arbitration?

    Ocupation of Huangyan will surely be contested. Today, Huangyan, tomorrow……..?

    Andaman is close to Indonesia, Malysia and even Myanmar. But historically it was always India’s and there was Indian presence all through and it has been accepted internationally.

    Chinese Dashes are figment of imperialist designs, never recognised internationally and the islands were not occupied. That is the difference between Chinese imperialist designs and the Indian Andaman.

    In 1930 Vietnam and Philippines existed. They were under foreign rule. Can we say China never existed during the period of China's '100 years of National Shame'?
     
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  19. s002wjh

    s002wjh Senior Member Senior Member

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    no US not ratify UNCLOS because it doesn't benefit us, just like china has no intention on settle the issue via UNCLOS. you think any major/super power will give up their claim base on UNCLOS, i doubt it.

    yes US has interest in pacific, will keep china guessing or prevent them from using force. but at the end of the day, if china really taking the part of disputed island by force. US will not start a war with china, MAYBE park few CVBG near SCS to show of force. does american want a war with china no. does richest american want a war with china? no they are too busy to milking the profits. any politician start a war again china base on few island is political sucide. back in WWII US only join the war after pearl harbor, even when japan sacking asia. and today most american has no taste for war due to iraq, economy, afahan, and 14trillion debt.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2012
  20. s002wjh

    s002wjh Senior Member Senior Member

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    again did you read my post said NO ONE has sole right to the area? no ASEAN has issue with sharing resource with each other. it has nothing to do with safe distance from china but resource, anyone read the news would know this.

    again did you read my post, i said negoiating with china is best solution, sending warship to chasing fisher man is not a bright idea. you think a major power like china will back down when facing philippine. Now they finaly realize they have to negioate it.

    again did i say china should have SCS? NO if you want to reply least stay focus on my replies, not just other bias stuff. the whole point of my reply are don't count on our navy to settle this dispute for phillippine. and don't get any idea because philippine think US will help no matter what and start antagonize china.

    if you look at vietnam or phillippine or malaysia they all claim a big chunck which overlap with other countries claim. if they are the size of china and a major power, they will claim the same area as china. all of those countries are in for self interst, none of them are holy righteousness
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2012

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