Pakistan's enemies will be enemies of Iran: Ahmadinejad

[ejazr]

Ahmedjinad has basically been reduced to a lame duck president after the recent elections and there is an intense power struggle between the Khamnenei and him which he has pretty much lost as of now.
The main problem is that Iran is a country that has an ideologically inclined regime with a cleric as a head of state. That makes them unpredicatable at times. Unless the clerical authority is weakened or removed and transparent democracy comes into place, you will have these loose cannons around with the internal actors jockeying for influence. The next presidential elections are in 2013 so until he goes and some other sane person becomes a President, I don't see any major improvement on Iran's status and India-Iran relations as well.


Interestingly the most recent Iran-India contacts were just a few days ago at the PM level. Something to watch out for is wether PM MMS does go to Iran although I would expect him to just send the FM or some other minister in his place. Espicially if the nuclear weapons issue is not resolved till then.


Ahmadinejad calls PM amid US pressure on India to cut Iranian, IBN Live News
New Delhi, May 18 (PTI) Against the backdrop of US pressure on India to cut oil imports from Iran, President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad has called up Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to emphasise that expansion of ties in different fields would lead to "considerable achievements" for both nations. Ahmadinejad called up the Prime Minister on Monday last primarily to invite him to the upcoming Non-Aligned Movement (NAM) Summit to be hosted by his country in August, sources said today. He told Singh that Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Salehi would be travelling to New Delhi shortly carrying his personal invitation for the Summit, the sources said. During the conversation, the two leaders talked about the status of bilateral ties and international issues of mutual interest, the sources said. According to an official statement issued by Ahmedinejad's office soon after the telephonic talk, the Iranian President "stressed (on) expansion of Tehran-New Delhi cooperation in different fields". The President said that "promotion of bilateral cooperation would lead to considerable achievements for both nations," it said. Ahmadinejad said Iran and India enjoy "deep brotherly relations" and that "the two nations would witness bright future", the statement said. The Prime Minister, on his part, said India attaches great importance to ties with Iran and "called for further expansion of cooperation with Tehran", the statement said. "The Premier said India welcomes widening relations with Iran on the basis of national interests," it said. Sources here said the two leaders discussed trade-related issues.

 

[Adux]

Adux,

I did a google search before and have done it again, and the two links that show up before DFI's are Nation, and PakistanToday, both propaganda sites of the ISI. https://www.google.co.in/search?sug...+enemies+will+be+enemies+of+Iran:+Ahmadinejad

Tell me one thing, do the things happen in isolation? More or less the chances are no.

More often than not, something are.

Iran has invariably reacted to what India has done

There you go again, with the dhoti shiver! India hasnt done anything, Iran is a NPT signatory and is not in their or our's for them to have a bomb. India has shielded Iran on everything, but we cannot shield them on Nuclear Bombs.
Nation states are built on self interest, its not our fault they are a bunch of loonies.

, and so the rant on Kashmir, but it is also them who saved are back side on the very same Kashmir when we as a country stood in isolation.

Where and when? In the OIC? Pakistan has better friends.
They have nothing of the sorts, They have abolute no influence in J&K, like the sunni's do.

By the way Israel too has made a rant on Kashmir, so do we start to demean them as well, at least I wouldn't.

One outburst, and I know in what context it was. It was not a statement.


Even if Iran were our friends, the current status quo doesnt suit, so its time to abandom them, it is simple, let me list it out.

India cannot be Afghanistan now, Afghanistan cannot defend itself, So we need the USA to be there to safeguard our investments and to open up the western front of Pakistan

For the USA to be there, it needs a supply route without the influence of Pakistan, it is impossible to regime change a nuclear Pakistan, we need a easier target with access to Afghanistan. Iran fits in perfectly.

Iran can remain a country, ofcourse but as a India friendly and US friendly regime with a supply route to NATO into Afghanistan.

China looses Pakistan, Pakistan looses its relevance to the USA, India economically capitulates struggling Pakistan, and Pakistan internally breaks up. Afghanistan becomes strong and has a culture shift, so does Iran, makes positive impact on the Indian muslim community.

 

[Adux]

I can see Ejaz has come to the support of the Iran and anti-Israel stand as usual.

 

[Yusuf]

Adu, I am a Pro US, Pro Israle, Pro Iran person who thinks an Alliance between them including India will make the world a better place. Well The Mid East at least

 

[ejazr]

@Adux

Where have I "supported" Iran or taken an "anti-Israel" stand? And do define what does "anti-Israel" mean as well while you are at it.

Read my posts carefully. I have tried to give an overall picture of the situation and what is happening in the area.

 

[Adux]

@Adux

Where have I "supported" Iran or taken an "anti-Israel" stand?

You have forgotten the debate we had on the same issue some months ago on the Iran invasion.

 

[Adux]

Adu, I am a Pro US, Pro Israle, Pro Iran person who thinks an Alliance between them including India will make the world a better place. Well The Mid East at least

I am pro-iran in general, but Iran will have to change , and that is the regime change, and they will have to change like Bangladesh changed in the last few years.

Iran's stand on Palestine, Israel, USA and Nuclear bombs are not something we can even debate so unless they change nothing can be done. Even if there are some legitimate grevience of Iran, they dont even give any room for USA or Israel to maneuver.

 

[ejazr]

You have forgotten the debate we had on the same issue some months ago on the Iran invasion.

And my point on the "invasion of Iran" was that it would be bad for the US and worse for India because of the destablising that results from it. Its not just about the war costs and affect on Iran, I was also listing the reasons why it would be a disaster for India directly and indirectly as well because we need a strong US. Not a US that will be stuck in the Iranian quagmire weakening itself by focussing on the ME when it should be focussing on China. That is the main focus that India and US should be having. Otherwise China gets another interference free decade to strengthen its influence in the global world order. Not to mention how we need US to focus laser like on stablising Afghanistan and keeping up the pressure on the tribals area of Pakistan.
India should always try to lobby US priorities around
(1) Tackling terorrism emanating from Pakistan and that includes stablising Afghanistan
(2) Engaging and containing China as required


Again, my views are also the views of the US military core command and Chief of staff, Israeli intelligence officers from the Shib Bet to former Mossad chief. Are these people "anti-Israel" as well for opposing the invasion using words like "lunatic" to describe this idea? Iran getting nuclear weapons is certainly not in our interests, nor in the interests of the GCC countries / Israel / US. And hence India has cut down on Iranian oil imports and at present is down to almost under 10%. Invading Iran will not solve the nuclear weapons issue and this is admitted even by US military and intelligence officers, so why would anyone support it as the only option?

In any case this is not related to the invasion of Iran by the US which I still hold like serving and former military and intelligence officers of the US and Israel do. I would hope we discuss on the merits of the issue rather than give labels like anti-Israel or anti-jewish or pro-Iran. All of us are pro-India and the views atleast I am giving is what IMO will be most beneficial for India. And I am also giving detailed explanations on why this is so. Not just making incorrect claims or labeling people.

As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, we are certainly seeing Iran and Pakistan come closer while India/US/GCC/Israel come closer on the other side. Infact, the Iran chill is not about pressure from the US alone but also increasing pressure from the GCC countries which have huge economic importance to India as its largest trading bloc. If there does become eventually a more visible Iran-Pakistan-China axis then that will be solidify an India-GCC-Israel-US bloc to contain it. Again India will always be in a good position to negotiate with Iran in a bilateral context as both the countries have convergent interests. But the way the international geopolitics will play out might force these blocs to emerge. Much like how India leaning into the Soviet bloc meant a scaled down relationship with countries allied with the US bloc.

Ofcourse much depends on how proactive and confident Indian diplomats feel. As Ajai Shukla's OpEd suggests India can play a role AND enhance its influence among all the players if they do
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/foreign-relations/36291-bridging-gulf-iran-ajai-shukla.html

 

[thakur_ritesh]

More often than not, something are.

In fact no, things dont happen in isolation, there is invariably a tit-for-tat.

There you go again, with the dhoti shiver! India hasnt done anything, Iran is a NPT signatory and is not in their or our's for them to have a bomb. India has shielded Iran on everything, but we cannot shield them on Nuclear Bombs.
Nation states are built on self interest, its not our fault they are a bunch of loonies.

They can be a bunch of loonies, this and that and whatever but till the time my agenda is being fulfilled through them, least I care, at least you agree on this when you say "Nation states are built on self interest", and if we are to extract benefit out of them and till they are obliging, I have no issues.

India has done its share of things, and what did Iran say, make a rant similar to what Israel did, but you are okay with what Israel had to say but not with Iran. Personally at least I have no issues with both, we need to use both and which is what we are doing.

Where and when? In the OIC? Pakistan has better friends.
They have nothing of the sorts, They have abolute no influence in J&K, like the sunni's do.

A reference point to be picked up by the UNSC which was being backed by the US and the UK so that the Pakistan backed resolution be passed and India be sensored on the violation of HR in Kashmir. Recall those were the days the US, the UK and others never used to mention terrorists as terrorists but as freedom fighters.

One outburst, and I know in what context it was. It was not a statement.

Thankfully you look it as an outburst which souldnt bother us as a country, and not as something we need to act on, and I agree. As I said once, if we are left with no choice between Israel and Iran, the choice ought to be Israel, till then we put Iran on the table and negotiate with the west on what do we get in return, and you will be happy to know, we are doing something just that, and we might see the results before UPA II gets to pack its bags, something that will be the second most significant thing to have happened after the Indo-US nuke deal from India's PoV.

Even if Iran were our friends, the current status quo doesnt suit, so its time to abandom them, it is simple, let me list it out.

Iran inst our friend, they are country which we are using to extract our part of flesh from the west and so is happening. All the talk of historic ties, etc are no more than to soothe some senses and just that.

India cannot be Afghanistan now, Afghanistan cannot defend itself, So we need the USA to be there to safeguard our investments and to open up the western front of Pakistan

For the USA to be there, it needs a supply route without the influence of Pakistan, it is impossible to regime change a nuclear Pakistan, we need a easier target with access to Afghanistan. Iran fits in perfectly.

Iran can remain a country, ofcourse but as a India friendly and US friendly regime with a supply route to NATO into Afghanistan.

From what I learn, the US is perfectly fine with India's current stand on Iran, public rhetoric apart, which is reserved for the conservatives back home in the US, and it is unlikely that any of the Indian entities will get sanctioned. Please go back to my january posts, right before the MMRCA result was announced and you would read, since then I have been saying we have reached an understanding with them on Iran, even the media wasnt talking about it back then.

Afghanistan, and CAR, both the issues are well communicated to the US, and as I said, they do understand our PoV, and how Iran is relevant to us. Let us not forget, the trade delegation happened in front of everyone and the Iranian one came when Ms Clinton was in town, and even then the Indo-US relations are looking up. Had it been any other time we would have been sanctioned, if not the country, a lot of our companies would have been arm twisted, let alone our companies winning contracts and being made a part of bigger deals all with the consent of the US.

China looses Pakistan, Pakistan looses its relevance to the USA, India economically capitulates struggling Pakistan, and Pakistan internally breaks up. Afghanistan becomes strong and has a culture shift, so does Iran, makes positive impact on the Indian muslim community.

Adux,

The day the US says we have to take a clear stand, we will, but till then we need to negotiate and get our part of the deal. There are other things that are more important to us than the regional dynamics that concern us. We are more concerned about placing our selves at a global level from where we get to be the real global players, for the regional thing, Iran, Pakistan, CAR, we have other alternatives and the US is not the only one.

 

[Yusuf]

Change will come by engaging not isolating.

 

[Adux]

Change will come by engaging not isolating.

Blatant day dreaming Yusuf, Simply it aint going to happen. The mullahs have the guns and a good measure of the masses. There is no way real secularist and democrats can ever dreaming achieving their objective without outside help.

Mullahs will never change their views on Israel and USA, also they have small pan-islamic brotherhood always at the back of their mind.

We need to strike when they have no nuclear weapons, after the advent of nuclear weapons you can kiss any secular or democratic movement in Iran, goodbye.

We need the regime to change while the USA is still interested in afghanistan.

 

[Adux]

In fact no, things dont happen in isolation, there is invariably a tit-for-tat.

I am in fact going to this let go, since I dont what you are getting at.

They can be a bunch of loonies, this and that and whatever but till the time my agenda is being fulfilled through them, least I care, at least you agree on this when you say "Nation states are built on self interest", and if we are to extract benefit out of them and till they are obliging, I have no issues.

What are you getting from them? Other than oil at 'market prices'

India has done its share of things, and what did Iran say, make a rant similar to what Israel did, but you are okay with what Israel had to say but not with Iran. Personally at least I have no issues with both, we need to use both and which is what we are doing.

Israel hasnt carriedd out a terrorist attack in India.

A reference point to be picked up by the UNSC which was being backed by the US and the UK so that the Pakistan backed resolution be passed and India be sensored on the violation of HR in Kashmir. Recall those were the days the US, the UK and others never used to mention terrorists as terrorists but as freedom fighters.

Hardly of any substance when we have USSR/Russia on our side, I dont care what the US/UK did in 1990's or even before that. If that was the case i would have nuked UK by now.

Thankfully you look it as an outburst which souldnt bother us as a country, and not as something we need to act on, and I agree. As I said once, if we are left with no choice between Israel and Iran, the choice ought to be Israel, till then we put Iran on the table and negotiate with the west on what do we get in return, and you will be happy to know, we are doing something just that, and we might see the results before UPA II gets to pack its bags, something that will be the second most significant thing to have happened after the Indo-US nuke deal from India's PoV.

Its not the same, though you are pushing to make it the same. Nobody has called for Iran to be isolated now, but we need to choose sides, when it comes to that. Regime change has to be effected in Iran. Our Pakistan-Afghanistan strategy depends on it.

Iran inst our friend, they are country which we are using to extract our part of flesh from the west and so is happening. All the talk of historic ties, etc are no more than to soothe some senses and just that.

And I hope you know Iran is doing just that.

From what I learn, the US is perfectly fine with India's current stand on Iran, public rhetoric apart, which is reserved for the conservatives back home in the US, and it is unlikely that any of the Indian entities will get sanctioned. Please go back to my january posts, right before the MMRCA result was announced and you would read, since then I have been saying we have reached an understanding with them on Iran, even the media wasnt talking about it back then.

I am aware of that. That is not the point of contention here, It is for Afghanistan strategy we need the USA in there. We need to make sure that Iran is not nuclear. What are we doing about these two issues?

Afghanistan, and CAR, both the issues are well communicated to the US, and as I said, they do understand our PoV, and how Iran is relevant to us. Let us not forget, the trade delegation happened in front of everyone and the Iranian one came when Ms Clinton was in town, and even then the Indo-US relations are looking up. Had it been any other time we would have been sanctioned, if not the country, a lot of our companies would have been arm twisted, let alone our companies winning contracts and being made a part of bigger deals all with the consent of the US.

You are not getting the point, USA intends to move out of Afghanistan of how Pakistan is hurting its supply lines? We have billions invested in afghanistan as well as that we will save trillions if we break up Pakistan and de nuke it.

Adux,

The day the US says we have to take a clear stand, we will, but till then we need to negotiate and get our part of the deal. There are other things that are more important to us than the regional dynamics that concern us. We are more concerned about placing our selves at a global level from where we get to be the real global players, for the regional thing, Iran, Pakistan, CAR, we have other alternatives and the US is not the only one.

The current Indian Iran strategy is running counter to our Afghan and Pakistan strategy as well as our national strategy of not having anymore nuclear powers in our region. That is the crux of the problem.

 

[Adux]

Ejaz,

Nothing is going to happen, nothing happened after the Iraq war, nothing is going to happen to after the Iran war. If anything it will be good for India. When US attacked Iraq before and even later, they were much more powerful than the Iranians. Nothing is going to happen. I see you have a particular fondness for another muslim country not being attacked since you are hell bend on not agreeing to a view point which takes force or regime change on Iran under 'any circumstances'.


Iranian regime change or ideological change ( I dont care which) to allow American supplies into Afghanistan is imperative for our afghanistan, pakistan and national strategy.

 

[The Messiah]

Ejaz,

Nothing is going to happen, nothing happened after the Iraq war, nothing is going to happen to after the Iran war. If anything it will be good for India. When US attacked Iraq before and even later, they were much more powerful than the Iranians. Nothing is going to happen. I see you have a particular fondness for another muslim country not being attacked since you are hell bend on not agreeing to a view point which takes force or regime change on Iran under 'any circumstances'.


Iranian regime change or ideological change ( I dont care which) to allow American supplies into Afghanistan is imperative for our afghanistan, pakistan and national strategy.

Iraq could not defeat iran for a decade while being funded and armed by the west and all arab nations. Ironically israel supplied weapons to iran since they didn't fancy saddam.

 

[The Messiah]

We dont need to do anything. Cutting ties would be most idiotic thing we could do because we wont gain anything from the west while we cut our access to central asia.

Adux wants regime change in iran...but the west has already said they wont put boots on the ground in iran but will instead bomb them, in such a scenario the iranian infrastructure including nuke facilities would be destroyed but the regime will get the backing of the entire population. So in the end the regime will stay, nuke facilities would be destroyed while we get nothing from cutting ties and instead get blocked off from central asia and afghanistan and instead have to rely on wahabi crackpots for oil and gas.

 

[Adux]

We dont need to do anything. Cutting ties would be most idiotic thing we could do because we wont gain anything from the west while we cut our access to central asia.

Nobody is advocating cutting ties, rather putting pressure on the west to put an end to Iranian regime

Adux wants regime change in iran...but the west has already said they wont put boots on the ground in iran but will instead bomb them, in such a scenario the iranian infrastructure including nuke facilities would be destroyed but the regime will get the backing of the entire population.

So in the end the regime will stay, nuke facilities would be destroyed while we get nothing from cutting ties and instead get blocked off from central asia and afghanistan and instead have to rely on wahabi crackpots for oil and gas

Not really, a possibility neverthless, You ignore the power at the disposal of the west, they will just keep killing them. Iran in its current avatar is not doing us any favors.

I implore you to think how our Iranian strategy is getting in the way of our national, afghan and Pakistai strategy.

 

[thakur_ritesh]

Adux,

What are you getting from them? Other than oil at 'market prices'

• Oil at market prices? Who said that? We do our deals at far lesser price than any prevailing market price and deals happen at least a year before the supply has to happen. If I am not getting it wrong, there was an article which reasoned price as the thing that we can bargain hard as Iranian oil exports start to get sanctioned.
• Supply route to CAR is definite through them and if we are to have the rail road that we have revived with the CAR nations and Russia, then Iran is of significance.
• Afghanistan. We are already working with them on Afghanistan. Also the supply lines.
• Iran is being used as a tool to negotiate some very significant deals with the US. They are being used as bargaining chip to get us long term benefits, as I said we should have some good deals with the west which help enhance our global profile prior to the UPA II's end of tenure.

Israel hasnt carriedd out a terrorist attack in India.

Our investigations aren't over on the terrorist attack that happened. All that we know for now is someone linked to an Iranian news agency was behind it, but that doesn't mean Iran was behind the attack. I am neither accusing them, nor giving any clean chit, first let it be proven, let's take a call then.

David Headly is an American but that didn't mean the US was behind 26/11, as a matter of fact he was being used as a double agent by the Americans.

Isrealis have been deported for being spies in the country, but again we haven't leveled any allegations against them because we have no proof of what those spies were doing in India. Point being, before we take any action we ought to be sure of who is behind the attack and seriously the way the investigations get carried out in India I wont be surprised if we remain clueless till eternity.

Hardly of any substance when we have USSR/Russia on our side, I dont care what the US/UK did in 1990's or even before that. If that was the case i would have nuked UK by now.

Right then, it should make no difference to us what the world has to say, because we will have someone or the other where it matters. In that case what the Iranian Mullahs have to say should also of no consequence because we have methods to deal with it.

Sure enough, how does it matter how the world was, what matters is, how they are with us now with us, and how best we can extract benefit through them and I agree with you.

Its not the same, though you are pushing to make it the same. Nobody has called for Iran to be isolated now, but we need to choose sides, when it comes to that. Regime change has to be effected in Iran. Our Pakistan-Afghanistan strategy depends on it.

I am not very sure how dramatically the two are different.

The Iranian mullah says the muslim community needs to get behind the struggle in Kashmir, and puts the situation at par with one in Palestine.
The Israeli foreign minister asks that the international community to sort out the Kashmir issue, and after getting a result there then sort out the Israel-Palestine conflict.

One equates Kashmir with Palestine, the other suggests Kashmir of a touch above Palestine in the list of priorities.
One calls on the muslim world, the other calls on the international community. Both are calling out to their own constituencies.

We will choose sides the day we stand to benefit. The day India leaves Iran internationally you can be reasonably sure we will have huge deals in our hands which will compensate us many times more and for now we are far away from it. Today we are negotiating just the drop in oil sourcing from Iran. We do our negotiations well.

And I hope you know Iran is doing just that.

Doesn't make a difference.
One, in any relationship there ought to be a win-win, a give and a take, else no use having a relationship between nations, at least I would not like India to do any charity, and even if we doing charity in name, there ought to be return else just the way the English were offended on hearing the out come of MMRCA, similarly the Indians have the right to be offended.
Two, the return that Iran is giving us (listed in the first point), is many times more than what Iran can dream of extracting from us.

I am aware of that. That is not the point of contention here, It is for Afghanistan strategy we need the USA in there. We need to make sure that Iran is not nuclear. What are we doing about these two issues?

1 We are working with the US and after the strategic partnership between the US and Afghanistan, India is assured the US is there to say. As I said, we might get to see a repeat of private security contractors filling up the numbers once the official draw down from the US' end starts.
2 We are very clear on our stand about nukes with Iran, there is no ambiguity, the same has been repeatedly communicated to Iran.

You are not getting the point, USA intends to move out of Afghanistan of how Pakistan is hurting its supply lines? We have billions invested in afghanistan as well as that we will save trillions if we break up Pakistan and de nuke it.

No Adux, the US doesn't intent to move out. Afghanistan is a part of a bigger game. They will have a minimum presence with the private security contractors complimenting (I would imagine), the supplies will be largely altered to the northern route, but Pakistan as a transit point will remain.

As I have said before, breaking Pakistan will have to be our call. The US for now is not interested. They need Pakistan for more stuff in the region and a stable and a pro-US Pakistan is important for the same which is what the US has been consistently trying to do even though they keep getting double crossed by the Pakistanis.

Denuking, I am not sure, but I would imagine the US should have some plan in place, and our regular military exercises could well be a part of that for which the preparations might be ongoing.

The current Indian Iran strategy is running counter to our Afghan and Pakistan strategy as well as our national strategy of not having anymore nuclear powers in our region. That is the crux of the problem.

Our strategy on Iran is to use them till the time utility lasts.

We don't consider them as our friends, and as I said all the talk of historical linkages are no more than rhetoric to soothe some senses, ego-message.

If you are hinting that we take part in any movement which is about dislodging the mullahs, sorry, but the country should never be ready for such a thing till we are assured that the west is ready to go all out as what happened in Libya where the then Libyan regime was pounded to oblivion. Otherwise, we have our Kashmir to take care of, and our IN chief tends to feel post 2014 we might have to face repercussions, and we seriously don't intend to add one more country which adds fuel to fire.

 

[Aayush]

Thats nothing.Iran has always sided with pakistan in war against india by providing its fighter planes and weapons etc.call of muslim ummah has always remain stronger than the call for friendship with kafir.So india must not remain in any illusion over irans support to pakistan against india.

That means Iran has given bheek to bikharis??

 

[panduranghari]

trolling?or you just want to dug you head into sand watever floats your boat.But india allying with usa and above all with israel will bring indian govt in direct confrontation with its muslim population.Thats why just 2 months back iran was able to attack israeli diplomat in heart of delhi using indian sleeper cell.you cant remain in denial that indian shia population has huge soft corner for iran.and u cant brush away the facts that iranian intelligence runs its own sleeper cells like isi in india.

My Shia friends in India will disagree with you entirely. Most immigrated to India from Iran and now they are free, now they are rich and now they are respected as well. Perhaps you Pakistanis will never get that opportunity to become free rich and influential.

 

[panduranghari]

Indians fought off successive muslim invasions in middle ages earlier too ultimately they fell in the end .

Really gwaza e hind and all that cannot be a figment of imagination if what you said is true.