Pakistan pulls JF 17 Thunderbird out of Bahrain air show

[abingdonboy]

Wish Parvez khokhar would have been alive to see this day.

It would have been nice to have Dr Kalam see this day also, to have him there in Sakir would have been sublime, alas, the rocket man's services were required somewhere else.....

 

[abingdonboy]

im pretty sure the JF's radars can still detect the LCA, albeit with a lower RCS. it's not exactly a stealth fighter, and not invisible to radar. so not much advantage there.

FBW will help in tighter turns, agreed. what about BVR combat? are these two evenly matched?

In a BVR fight there are too many variables-relative distance, closing speeds, relative postions, EW/SDS systems employed etc etc to say with any degree of certainty what will happen. But many airpower analysts have simulated BVR and say that these days a lot of these fights will more often than not lead to WVR combat (contrary to what had been predicted in the 60s).

bhai mere, please wo metrics bata do yaar. im not doubting the LCA's capability, but i just want to know our plane's capability over theirs. just saying that it's better without numbers to back it up is a terrible sales pitch really.

I've stated why the LCA is superior to the Thunder, I don't have the exact ITR, AoA, RCS etc etc figures for both fighters but all of the qualative ananysis clearly favours the LCA and you can draw only one conclusion from that.

Does that make the LCA invicible against the JF-17? Of course not, employment, pilot training etc etc all the standard stuff, will affect the end result as well as a fair dose of luck one way or another on the day.

Range figures are not accurate and true figures will be known only after IAF uses them? how in the world does that help Tejas's credibility? it's not like a super secret weapon we're building which only we are going to use. we do intend to export it, dont we? should the metric of range be kept so fudged that a prospective international customer has no idea?

I have said the numbers are not known to us, of course any nation seriously considering the LCA will sit down with HAL and be given a full and confidential breif (just like the GoI/IAF/IN) has had for the V-22s, EMALS, F-35 etc etc. The numbers just aren't available to the public and why do they need to be? HAL/ADA/India gains NOTHING from having the true capabilities of the LCA revealed to the world- those who need to know will be told, this is common practice around the world in most industries.

4.5 gen would mean zilch if its adversary can still hold some performance advantages. the Tiger tank was a german engineering marvel. pure quality. it got beaten by the t 34. a relatively simpler tank with good performance.

A numbers vs quality analysis aproach between the LCa and JF-17 is false equivalancy my friend. Think about operational employment, it is very unlikely the LCA will go head to head with the JF-17 on a 1 vs 1 basis all too often. The JF-17 will be going up against MKIs, Rafales and the like- the IAF's operational doctrine is to fight in Pak airspace with the LCA making up a rear guard.

That said, at some point in the not to distant future the LCA will have quantity AND its inherent quality over the Thunder on its side. I don't know exactly what PAC or Chengdu are playing at but if you look at the inducted JF-17s in the PAF, it appears they are only averaging 7-8 birds a year. From 2017 HAL will be churning out 16/year and they are already producing 19-20 MKIs/year.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Full scale production of LCA starting next year

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/repor...a-tejas-by-next-year-manohar-parrikar-2168497


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[HariPrasad-1]

Fearing competition with India’s LCA Tejas, Pakistan pulls out its JF-17 Thunder from Bahrain Air Show
Date: January 21, 2016
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At the start, Bahrain Air Show has a list which included Pakistani Air Force as a confirmed participant on its website. Even, Aircraft parking bays were reserved for two Pakistani Air Force (PAF) JF-17 Thunders at Sakhir Air base where the International Air Show will be flagged off this week.

The Indian Air force made a late decision to send their Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas to the show. The organizational chart pitted LCA Tejas directly in competition with JF-17 Thunder. This would have been the first time for the “Made in China” Pakistani JF-17 to participate and perform in an international event like the one in Bahrain. International media, military watchdogs, analysts and critics are all expected to be at the show judging every aircraft and their abilities.

Fearing a major blowout by critics of the low cost, cheap quality Chinese made JF-17 Thunder that China copied from the vintage Mig-21, Pakistan decided to pull out from the Bahrain International Air show and save itself from humiliation at a global scale.

Both the LCA Tejas and the JF-17 Thunder were allotted the same exhibition pad (Number 15) to park the planes in — and compete in terms of flight performance at the show. The capabilities of Sino-Pak JF-17 have always been in the cloud of doubt and their ability to roar into the skies was not proven beyond doubts. As per the latest reports, it will not even be seen in Bahrain.

It has to be mentioned that the PAF displayed remarkable discretion in taking out the JF-17 out from the possible bout with LCA Tejas as it would have been extremely difficult for the PAF to sing their plane’s praises and maintain a straight face while seeing the 4+ Generation LCA Tejas pull tight 8G turns above them. They knew one thing for sure, it wouldn’t be possible to impress with JF-17’s maneuverability and stealth attributes that it can’t possibly match with LCA Tejas.

 

[gslv markIII]

The chief designer of the Xiaolong, Yang Wei, said that the aircraft cannot compete with other aircraft on the market and that exporting fighters is often influenced by geopolitical factors, in an interview with Beijing-based China Daily.

http://www.webcitation.org/6VHWpaYlV

 

[gslv markIII]

MARGINAL IMPACT

"Hard data [about Chinese fighter exports] is hard to find," says Teal Group analyst Richard Aboulafia. Reflecting the dearth of hard figures, Teal's February 2012 fighter forecast excludes Chinese-made types.

"China is having almost no impact on world markets, except in a marginal way," he adds.''Their niche, if you could call it that, is countries that can't afford anything better. The JF-17 is an obsolete and cheap aircraft, ideal for the Pakistan market, which values numbers over actual combat effectiveness.It doesn't seem to be going anywhere else, and only marginal country markets have been mentioned as prospects - other than Egypt."

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/in-focus-china-awaits-fighter-export-breakthrough-373313/

 

[Bornubus]

What is the Radar range of Tejas compared with junk ?

 

[HariPrasad-1]

I was the first guy to sate that Pakistan might withdraw Junk fighter to avoid it to be exposed in competition with Tejas. If you go to PDF and read the comments of Porkis, you will realise that they rate Junk fighter better than F 22. So wisely chinkis and porkis withdrew their Junk series. Kota Harinarayan had rightly said that making a plane like tejas is not a cup of tea for china. only Europe, Russia and US can make it. He said that now we are at par with Europe. With the arrival of AMCA, We shall surpass them.

 

[ersakthivel]

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/

A vertical loop in 16 seconds(8-55 seconds),

A horizontal loop in 20-22 seconds, plus a negative G turn at 8-26 seconds

 

[Srinivas_K]

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/

A vertical loop in 16 seconds(8-55 seconds),

A horizontal loop in 20-22 seconds, plus a negative G turn at 8-26 seconds

I have one question !

Delta configuration has some drag disadvantages compared to JF 17 kind of design, How Tejas will fare against JF17 in pure dogfight without missiles ?

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

I have one question !

Delta configuration has some drag disadvantages compared to JF 17 kind of design, How Tejas will fare against JF17 in pure dogfight without missiles ?

The delta is a bit more nuanced than that. The drag coefficient for a delta wing only impedes flight at low speeds-low altitude flight profile, but does better than other wing types in high speed, high altitude, high maneuver flight profiles.

Once the plane catches speed, there is a change in how the fluid dynamics work in favor of the delta. Check this :

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Fluid_Mechanics_Applications/A02:_Delta_Wing_Aircraft_Aerodynamics

The primary advantage of the delta wing is that, with a large enough angle of rearward sweep, the wing’s leading edge will not contact the shock wave boundary formed at the nose of the fuselage as the speed of the aircraft approaches and exceeds transonic to supersonic speed. The rearward sweep angle vastly lowers the airspeed normal to the leading edge of the wing, thereby allowing the aircraft to fly at high subsonic, transonic, or supersonic speed, while the over wing speed of the lifting air is kept to less than the speed of sound. Some other advantages of Delta wings are:-

• Rise in Transsonic drag is gradual and peak drag in supersonic flight is reduced

--Lift is spread over the broader chord
--Senstivity of Drag to Mach Number is redued greatly
--Satisfactory cross sectional area can be achieved very easily

• Change in lift component CL and lift curve slope CLα with the value of Mach Number M is gradual.
• A very high stall angle is achieved by increasing the angle of atack, as a flow energising vortex is generated by the leading edge of the wing at high angles of attack.
• It allows for light wings with high bending and torsional stiffness.

--More volume for fuel and gear is available in thicker wings.
--Fluttering and aileron reversal problems are wholly eliminated.

• Acceptable level of maneuverability and ease of handlingis achieved because of low wing loading.
• Wingspan is small and hence does not require folding.
• Available area for external storage is large enough.
• It is easy ,simple and relatively inexpensive to manufacture.
• The addition of canards to the aircraft increases the overall lift,hence enabling the aircraft to perform extreme maneuvers and at the same time improving the low speed handling and lowering the landing speed

Couple that with relaxed static stability and you have a plane that is probably the most suitable plane for emerging victorious in dog fights.

 

[Srinivas_K]

The delta is a bit more nuanced than that. The drag coefficient for a delta wing only impedes flight at low speeds-low altitude flight profile, but does better than other wing types in high speed, high altitude, high maneuver flight profiles.

Once the plane catches speed, there is a change in how the fluid dynamics work in favor of the delta. Check this :

Couple that with relaxed static stability and you have a plane that is probably the most suitable plane for emerging victorious in dog fights.

Thanks !!


...................................................

 

[Nicky G]

While I have nothing against laughing at the Pakis and Chinese alike, a 3rd gen fighter only good for bombing near defenseless freedom fighters in Paki occupied territory is hardly an apt comparison for Tejas. Lets look ahead at 4.5 gen fighters and try to match up to them. Long road ahead.

 

[gslv markIII]

Google read the article "Revolutionary Evolution of F-16 XL" to know better.

Sir,would Tejas' low sweep help inboard section improving the STR ?

I read that adding levcons will increase the L/D ratio and increase STR.Any thoughts ?

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Thanks !!

Delta design is the holy grail of supersonic air dominance, be it dogfights or missile launches. If the missiles themselves are hypersonic then the speed adds up. It's almost like dropping a space rod. That's why everyone is moving onto the delta design, Rafale, Typhoon, Tejas and US B2 spirit. Only China and Pakistan is moving away from it. That is how you verify that they are stupid.


Btw, I've updated my previous comment and added some more facts from a good aerodynamics source.

 

[gslv markIII]

Only China and Pakistan is moving away from it. That is how you verify that they are stupid.

Sir you missed the J 10 and J 20,which Chinese made for their own use.

Let us not fool ourselves by calling the JF 17 a 'joint effort'.Given the state of their aerospace industry, their experience in designing aircraft & lack of research institutions/infrastructure,there is almost nothing they can contribute.Pakistanis are yet to disclose the number of Pakistani engineers/designers involved or the man-hours/years they've provided for this project.If anything,there will be a hardly a dozen of mostly PAF engineers,there to help with specifications as is the only end user.

Here is a previous example of 'joint development'-From a Pakistani source.

The design phase of the K-8 started in May 1987. For participation in this phase, a team of nine engineers flew to Beijing on August 27, 1987

http://www.paffalcons.com/gallery/k8/k-8.php

Yes- only nine engineers.BTW have we ever seen a model of so called 'JF' in a Pakistani wind-tunnel ??

 

[HariPrasad-1]

In short the LCA is a true 4.5 gen fighter the Mk.1A will be 4.5+, the Thunder (even block 2) is barely a 4th gen fighter.

No it will never be a 4th generation plane with poor thrust to weight ration, metal body and FBW in pitch axis, poor AOA and 8g on paper only. Junk fighter can not exceed 17* AOA. It does not have RSS. It is a 8 g plane on paper only. it can be compared with sitara only. It can not maneuver like other advance plane nor can it carry the weight and accelerate fast. You can not make any plane 4th generation by simply putting some electronic on that.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Fuel fraction is the thing to look at, fuel wieght/Empty wieght , if you want real combat radius with worthwhile weapon carriage, In this area tejas mk1 easily exceeds gripen C.

There is really no benefit in flying 1000s of Kms(all "colorful ranges ") with just a couple of air to air missiles and no ground strike package

Ge-404 In 20 is no fuel guzzler.

SO no worries in real world.

After the proposed aerodynamic improvement of 8%with elevated cockpit, scientist say that there will be a 20% improvement in Transsonic acceleration. This will lead to an improvement in fuel efficiency as well.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

More than Gs it is a combo G onset rates(the speed with which these Gs are pulled, )

I believe that g (Not G) is a measure of change in velocity. It comes from 2 components. 1) Change in speed (If linear and 2) Change in direction. If the change in direction is low at high speed than also g pulled will be high. To perform high g at low speed, you need to change direction a lot. so it is not very advisable to say gs pulled at so and so speed. my two cent.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Pakistan has withdrawn JF 17 from air show. In war time they will withdraw it from battlefield as well.