Pakistan pulls JF 17 Thunderbird out of Bahrain air show

[ersakthivel]

Can you give us a quick comparison about how many Gs other planes can pull? F35, F16, JF17, J20, Rafale, Typhoon?

More than Gs it is a combo G onset rates(the speed with which these Gs are pulled, ),high AOA, and Relaxed Static Stability , which makes the winner in close combat.

If 9G plane B takes x seconds to pull 8g , it cant use its extra one G against a plane A,which can pull 8Gs in X-y seconds(quicker than plane B), i.e the plane A always accelerates faster and changes direction quickly, when pursued by plane B.

When Plane A is in pursuit, Plane B can not over accelerate plane A, leading to higher G pulling Plane B , always remaining with in the gunsight of plane A.

tejas is more of a plane A type ,if high thrust to weight ratio, negative static stability (RSS) low wing loading combo is any indication like the famed F-16 XL, which always managed to pull those Gs faster,

Google read the article "Revolutionary Evolution of F-16 XL" to know better.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

More than Gs it is a combo G onset rates(the speed with which these Gs are pulled, ),high AOA, and Relaxed Static Stability , which makes the winner in close combat.

If 9G plane B takes x seconds to pull 8g , it cant use its extra one G against a plane A,which can pull 8Gs in X-y seconds(quicker than plane B), i.e the plane A always accelerates faster and changes direction quickly, when pursued by plane B.

When Plane A is in pursuit, Plane B can not over accelerate plane A, leading to higher G pulling Plane B , always remaining with in the gunsight of plane A.

tejas is more of a plane A type ,if high thrust to weight ratio, negative static stability (RSS) low wing loading combo is any indication like the famed F-16 XL, which always managed to pull those Gs faster,

Google read the article "Revolutionary Evolution of F-16 XL" to know better.

Thanks, I'm heading towards that article right now.

Can you also acquaint me as to why our Tejas has such a small combat range? just 500km (maybe 800km with disposable droptanks) compared to other planes?

 

[ersakthivel]

http://bharatkarnad.com/ Bharathkarnard nails it, The reason behind the PAF charity of 500000 dollars forfieted entry fee ,to "poor bahrain" for pulling out JF-17 ,all metal, half finished,junk bird JF-17 from the show, fearing unfavorable comparison by "Future Customers"(they are negotiating with them for ages!!!)

 

[ersakthivel]

Thanks, I'm heading towards that article right now.

Can you also acquaint me as to why our Tejas has such a small combat range? just 500km (maybe 800km with disposable droptanks) compared to other planes?

Fuel fraction is the thing to look at, fuel wieght/Empty wieght , if you want real combat radius with worthwhile weapon carriage, In this area tejas mk1 easily exceeds gripen C.

There is really no benefit in flying 1000s of Kms(all "colorful ranges ") with just a couple of air to air missiles and no ground strike package

Ge-404 In 20 is no fuel guzzler.

SO no worries in real world.

 

[mahesh]

let me give you the most recent example of ongoing Bahrain airshow. Do you know that all the 3 pilots who have gone there to showcase Tejas, are from Navy, not a single airforce guy. Isn't that shameful?

I don't see it as a shame. Cox I think navy pilots are more capable then army pilots in sea level conditions in bahrain. There experience in sea level conditions would help them in handling the aircraft better. Well choosing navy pilots was a wise dicision I guess.

 

[ersakthivel]

I don't see it as a shame. Cox I think navy pilots are more capable then army pilots in sea level conditions in bahrain. There experience in sea level conditions would help them in handling the aircraft better. Well choosing navy pilots was a wise dicision I guess.

Navy backed tejas enterprise to the hilt, even though they dont need it tomorrow, The present ADA chief balaji is a navy guy who is with the program for a long time and has the support of navy too.

but IAF top brass in the past tried all it could to stop large scale tejas induction , untill manohar parrikar, with direct support from modi put up 2052 ASEA, python, derby, External Ew suit, Astra combo to break IAF resistance.
Now this bahrin airshow with 24 plus AOA, 8G plus Fly by wire software is the icing on the cake.

 

[ersakthivel]

https://twitter.com/rajatpTOI

When the whole world is looking towards India's military aeronautical future in bahrain this guy is tweeting abt Virat's last ride!!!

As far as rajat pandit, The top TOI editor on "Defence, Strategic Affairs" Tejas and bahrain exist in parallel universe!!!

Times change, but some defence jourANALysts never change!!!

Nowonder TOi is more of a TOIlet these days,

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

I don't see it as a shame. Cox I think navy pilots are more capable then army pilots in sea level conditions in bahrain. There experience in sea level conditions would help them in handling the aircraft better. Well choosing navy pilots was a wise dicision I guess.

I was trying to draw people's attention to the fact that the IAF tried all tricks under its belt to stall the development of indigenous air-warfare capabilities and basically threw a tantrum. That is why the Navy had to step in and steer the entire project on the right path, that includes development to funding. Pilot skill is irrelevant to the point I was making.

The IAF also opposed the army getting any air assets. This lethal combo of monopoly + non-cooperation on part of the IAF needs to be called out. When there was talk about letting the army acquire a close air support wing with attack helicopters and land attack aircraft, the IAF basically said 'it will be a waste of money as it will require the army to set up pilot training schools', what they indirectly meant was 'if you give air assets to the army, we will not let their pilots use our facilities to train, they will have to build their own'. That's arrogance to the core.

 

[ersakthivel]

http://swarajyamag.com/biz/silencing-critics-tejas-all-set-for-ballet-in-bahrain/

"The pulling out of Pakistan’s JF-17s Thunder has taken some sheen out of the show, but Tejas practice sessions have been hailed as the best by international aviation experts, who have been tweeting non-stop."

 

[abingdonboy]

What would have happened, had JF-17 not withdrawn? The two are not exactly comparable.

Source or picture: Chinese and Indian fighter jets face off amid regional turf war

@pmaitra @Gessler Can anyone bring me up to speed on what makes our Tejas have such a small range? Even with detachable drop tanks it's just 800km. Is it because the engine is a fuel guzzler or because the fuel tank is excessively small for stealth and weight?

The combat radius figures for both planes is clearly inaccurate- the Chinese are stretching the truth and DRDO is massively understating theirs. I think the ferry range the LCA was undertaking just to get to Sakir (via Muscat) highlights just how inaccurate that 500km figure is!

 

[Anikastha]

A quarter of a vertical loop in 4 seconds flat by tejas in bahrain with new fly by wire software relaxations to pull beyond 8G and AOA above 24 deg , no wonder JF-17 pulled out.


Kudos to modi govt and Def minister manohar parrikar for letting IAF, IN test pilots and ADA -HAL team to advertise indian aerodynamic advances in internal stage.

Fitting it out with 2052 ASEA radar, Astra , python, derby combo was the ice breaker by manohar parrikar , which let this bird to emerge as a winner in international arena.

i havent seen any warplane to complete a vertical loop before 16 seconds, So in this aspect tejas is second to none.

This will make many import dalals masquerading as defence jourANAlysts wet their pants.

This is enough for JF-17 team to commit suicide
@Indx TechStyle

 

[abingdonboy]

Do you know that all the 3 pilots who have gone there to showcase Tejas, are from Navy, not a single airforce guy. Isn't that shameful?

Lies. 2 are Navy, 1 is IAF. They are all under NFTC- the services don't decide who the NFTC sends to these events or micromange who is flying what, when.

Let's not buy into all this IAF bashing that the media loves to engage in- they are the ones who are secruing the skies every day whilst being constantly bashed- most of the time unfaily. The LCA is only now showing the performance that is impressing us- it wasn't 3 years ago so rightly the IAF has waited to induct it, Better to get it right from the outset than induct an inferior product like the PAF has done.

 

[delta]

The combat radius figures for both planes is clearly inaccurate- the Chinese are stretching the truth and DRDO is massively understating theirs. I think the ferry range the LCA was undertaking just to get to Sakir (via Muscat) highlights just how inaccurate that 500km figure is!

i buy your point of the Tejas reaching Sakhir on drop tanks. however, what would DRDO stand to gain by understating their aircraft's range? in fact, this would only work against them in securing customers.

also, the armament of the JF 17 and Tejas seems comparable, and the JF wins out on range. the max speeds for both aircrafts are almost the same. what performance metrics then does the Tejas beat out the JF 17 on? please dont mention carbon composites, fbw etc. they might help the industry and R&D in the country, but what happens when both these aircraft meet each other in the air? who wins out and how? (assume both pilots are of equal capability)

 

[Indx TechStyle]

This is enough for JF-17 team to commit suicide
@Indx TechStyle

Bro, if people are stupid enough that they can't differentiate between indigenuity and license production, that scenario is worse than suicide.

 

[abingdonboy]

please dont mention carbon composites, fbw etc. they might help the industry and R&D in the country, but what happens when both these aircraft meet each other in the air? who wins out and how? (assume both pilots are of equal capability)

Lol, you think these are just pretty features for brochures that have no tactical advantadge?

Carbon composites allow for a lighter (but stronger) airframe and lower RCS
Full quadruplex FBW allows for far greater flight charecteristics- the Thunder is limited to FBW in pitch only (this is pre 80s technology btw)
The LCA has HMDS allowing it to aim and fire off bore sight missiles like the R-73 just by the pilot looking at the target as well as aiding in situaiton awareness

The LCA creams the JF-17 in almost every metric imaginable and the range figures for the LCA are not accurate- the DRDO has not offcially stated them. Once it is in IAF service the true figure may be known but it is irrelvent really as the LCA is not meant to undertake long range strike missions but act as a point defence fighter on Indian soil- if longer time on station is required it will have an IFR probe.

In short the LCA is a true 4.5 gen fighter the Mk.1A will be 4.5+, the Thunder (even block 2) is barely a 4th gen fighter.

 

[delta]

Lol, you think these are just pretty features for brochures that have no tactical advantadge?

Carbon composites allow for a lighter (but stronger) airframe and lower RCS
Full quadruplex FBW allows for far greater flight charecteristics- the Thunder is limited to FBW in pitch only (this is pre 80s technology btw)

im pretty sure the JF's radars can still detect the LCA, albeit with a lower RCS. it's not exactly a stealth fighter, and not invisible to radar. so not much advantage there.

FBW will help in tighter turns, agreed. what about BVR combat? are these two evenly matched?

The LCA has HMDS allowing it to aim and fire off bore sight missiles like the R-73 just by the pilot looking at the target as well as aiding in situaiton awareness

a major advantage, i agree. especially in dogfights. in any other situation?

The LCA creams the JF-17 in almost every metric imaginable and the range figures for the LCA are not accurate- the DRDO has not offcially stated them. Once it is in IAF service the true figure may be known but it is irrelvent really as the LCA is not meant to undertake long range strike missions but act as a point defence fighter on Indian soil- if longer time on station is required it will have an IFR probe.

In short the LCA is a true 4.5 gen fighter the Mk.1A will be 4.5+, the Thunder (even block 2) is barely a 4th gen fighter.

bhai mere, please wo metrics bata do yaar. im not doubting the LCA's capability, but i just want to know our plane's capability over theirs. just saying that it's better without numbers to back it up is a terrible sales pitch really.

Range figures are not accurate and true figures will be known only after IAF uses them? how in the world does that help Tejas's credibility? it's not like a super secret weapon we're building which only we are going to use. we do intend to export it, dont we? should the metric of range be kept so fudged that a prospective international customer has no idea? point taken about the role of point defence, and hence its limited range. that still doesnt justify the obscuring of capability features.

4.5 gen would mean zilch if its adversary can still hold some performance advantages. the Tiger tank was a german engineering marvel. pure quality. it got beaten by the t 34. a relatively simpler tank with good performance.

 

[The Last Stand]

Off topic, but

I should tell you @delta that the Tiger was rather notorious for knocking out T-34s from 1 to 2 km away.

It took quite large numbers of T-34s to overwhelm Tigers.

Not only did Tigers have a more powerful gun, they also had better and more experienced gunners. It was as much the crew as the tank in its superiority.

You are thinking of the IS-2/IS-3 which had enough firepower to penetrate the Tiger I through the front. Still was not a better tank, but certainly cheaper to produce.

I'm not sure if the IS-3 could do it to a Tiger II (Koenigstiger) but I'll have to dig up some of the old stuff I used to go through.

 

[delta]

i agree @Keshav Murali . bad example quite possibly, as the tiger would beat it in a one-on-one engagement. heck, i even retract the example.

that still leaves us with these two aircraft in the air, heading toward each other, possibly with a BVRAAM lock. how does our advanced design knock that metal bird out?

 

[I_PLAY_BAD]

Oh, no! Isn't India also developing her own space weapon? Such as BMD?

Ballistic Missile Defense (BMD) is not a space weapon. It is an indigenous missile interceptor system. Get the facts right.

 

[G10]

Wish Parvez khokhar would have been alive to see this day.